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[June] Nullsec Asteroid Cluster and Excavator Drone changes

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Author
Morrigan Laima
Shooting Blues Everyday
Gimme Da Loot
#241 - 2017-06-02 03:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan Laima
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks.
We continue to keep a close eye on the impacts of the changes to mining ships that have been made over the past six months. After this observation we have decided that we need to make another intervention to keep the economy healthy. This isn't the first of such changes, and once again it is unlikely to be the last.

In the June release we are making a few targeted changes to Nullsec Asteroid Clusters (the ore anomalies created by the Ore Prospecting Array upgrade) and Excavator drones.

Firstly, we are adding a respawn cooldown to all Asteroid Cluster anomalies. This cooldown scales based on the size of the anomaly:
  • 20 minutes for the Small Asteroid Cluster
  • 1 hour for the Medium Asteroid Cluster
  • 2 hours for the Large Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 4 hours for the Enormous Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 5 hours for the Colossal Asteroid Cluster variants

These changes will only have a significant impact on the absolute busiest nullsec mining systems. The vast majority of nullsec miners will not be negatively impacted. The pilots mining in those few extremely busy systems will have the option of staggering when they mine, or simply spreading out to a few extra systems.

We are also making some more small adjustments to the Excavator drones themselves. In June the changes are:
  • About 9% less yield for Ore Excavators
  • 12.5% lower speed for Ore Excavators
  • About 11% longer cycle time for Ice Excavators
  • 10% lower speed for Ice Excavators


We will continue observing the economy after these changes and making adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players.



Looks like you still fundamentally don't understand your own game, and as a result, you are undermining the confidence of the players.

The Rorqual, and the excavator drones required to use it represent what is to most pilots a sizeable investment, an investment that initially looked lucrative enough that many pilots invested everything they had, and some real life cash to afford.

A sizable nerf was expected right off the bat, and it happened. Then it happened again and again and again. That sort of uncertainty means you've turned would should have been a solid bet into a very risky gamble. I get that balance changes are necessary, but you've gone from a ship that gets very roughly 10X the yield of a hulk for 1000X the cost, to a ship that gets 1.5X the yield for 1000X the cost.

A nullsec-dominant economy is healthy for the game. It makes owning space desirable, which in turn makes taking space desirable. More importantly, it positions nullsec as a logical "end goal" for most players, again, a healthy thing, and a conflict driver.

What you obviously haven't figured out. Mining is the income stream which is easiest to scale. It's depressingly boring for most people who do it, but, it requires the least interaction per client, and the most predictable interaction per client of any profession. If you are looking to scale your profession to dozens of clients, Mining is the strongest, least effort option left that is viable without input broadcasting. In short, Rorquals promised what AFK carrier ratting used to be - income that scales almost linearly with number of clients while only having a tiny increase per client in pilot effort. They then combined that with relatively low risk - if flown properly, you won't EVER die.. That, and not their yield is what is broken.

Unpopular opinion here, but Nerf the ability to scale, and not the yield. Not just for Rorquals, but exhumers, barges, ishtars, and any other clever ways people find to simultaneously make income on dozens of clients at a time. It's not healthy that a few outliers can completely distort the economy, and it's also not healthy that CCP as a company gets a disproportionate amount of subscriber income from heavy multiboxers.


Once you take care of scaling, then start balancing incomes around a set of target numbers for highsec, lowsec, nullsec, and wspace to make the risk/reward obvious, and to make owning space or living in high-risk areas of space desirable.
Amber Hurtini
Dead Suns Rising
Dead Heaven Syndicate
#242 - 2017-06-02 03:25:51 UTC
Radious Servasse wrote:
Maybe they think that by lowering the amount of ore mined it will raise ore prices so overall the actual isk mined stays the same. So if this is their master plan, they are not targeting miners, they are targeting everyone in eve. More costs involved in buying ships.

But from I've noticed, what goes well in theory doesn't always go that well in practice. Just some Rad thought.



If that is the case should they be targeting the biggest ISK faucet there is in Eve? Null Sec ratting and incursion running. maybe they need to take 15% reduction in isk and LP earned?

In Empire you can make anywhere from 80 mill an hour to 180mil an hour. null sec ratting is about the same depending on how you do this and what ship you are flying.

It all comes down to the basic isk per hour ratio. and the rorqual out in the mine field munching on rocks is a rather large target if you are not paying attention to your intell channel. Risk versus reward and you got 12bil isk ship on the field you should be not be hit by the nerf bat only to find out that the nerf family came over to visit a few more times.

A rorqual should be able to mine roughly 120 mil per hour upwards to 180 mill per hour taking in account of skill and dedication into training such a skill intensive ship.

Come on CCP please think. if you plan on hitting one group in the nuts you should hit them ALL in the nuts.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#243 - 2017-06-02 03:34:19 UTC
I think this idea is kinda of ludicrous.......

I live in Highsec as most of my membership does, we are enjoying the fact nullsec is finally getting its stuff together out there and for the first time in EvE history making proper local economy infrastructure a reality. (ie they dont come to highsec as much anymore for reasons)

With this hard nerfing.....im thinking more lack of large juicy targets is going to bring nullseccrs and their metagame **** back to HS on a more regular basis.

On another note though, why Fozzie are you trying to balance player interaction?
or is CCP trying to counter things like Ghost training and what not by trying to make more players get into a Rorq or have more clients?
Snow Ozran
Rabble Inc.
Northern Coalition.
#244 - 2017-06-02 03:42:53 UTC
Morrigan Laima wrote:

Unpopular opinion here, but Nerf the ability to scale, and not the yield. Not just for Rorquals, but exhumers, barges, ishtars, and any other clever ways people find to simultaneously make income on dozens of clients at a time. It's not healthy that a few outliers can completely distort the economy, and it's also not healthy that CCP as a company gets a disproportionate amount of subscriber income from heavy multiboxers.


They don't get a disproportionate amount of sub money from multiboxers. The purpose of multiboxing is to sub all your accounts for isk. Multiboxers increase the price of plex, not provide more plex to the market which would reduce the price of plex.
Morrigan Laima
Shooting Blues Everyday
Gimme Da Loot
#245 - 2017-06-02 03:46:48 UTC
Snow Ozran wrote:
Morrigan Laima wrote:

Unpopular opinion here, but Nerf the ability to scale, and not the yield. Not just for Rorquals, but exhumers, barges, ishtars, and any other clever ways people find to simultaneously make income on dozens of clients at a time. It's not healthy that a few outliers can completely distort the economy, and it's also not healthy that CCP as a company gets a disproportionate amount of subscriber income from heavy multiboxers.


They don't get a disproportionate amount of sub money from multiboxers. The purpose of multiboxing is to sub all your accounts for isk. Multiboxers increase the price of plex, not provide more plex to the market which would reduce the price of plex.



500 PLEX still represents a sub that someone paid CCP real money for. The fact that there's a middleman involves does not change the fact that the subscription is income for CCP.
Snow Ozran
Rabble Inc.
Northern Coalition.
#246 - 2017-06-02 03:49:19 UTC
Morrigan Laima wrote:
Snow Ozran wrote:
Morrigan Laima wrote:

Unpopular opinion here, but Nerf the ability to scale, and not the yield. Not just for Rorquals, but exhumers, barges, ishtars, and any other clever ways people find to simultaneously make income on dozens of clients at a time. It's not healthy that a few outliers can completely distort the economy, and it's also not healthy that CCP as a company gets a disproportionate amount of subscriber income from heavy multiboxers.


They don't get a disproportionate amount of sub money from multiboxers. The purpose of multiboxing is to sub all your accounts for isk. Multiboxers increase the price of plex, not provide more plex to the market which would reduce the price of plex.



500 PLEX still represents a sub that someone paid CCP real money for. The fact that there's a middleman involves does not change the fact that the subscription is income for CCP.


I am not disputing that. I am simply saying that the plex would be on the market whether people multiboxed or not. More multiboxers does not mean more plex, it just means more expensive plex.
Dirk MacGirk
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#247 - 2017-06-02 03:54:47 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
I don't think excess ISK dramatically impacts inflation.


Learn what inflation is, then comment.


Thanks for your valuable input. Now that your big brain is probably engaged more, show me where the excess ISK that has been around EVE for a generation has driven inflation in anything but something like PLEX? It just hasn't been shown to have the same effect that it does in the real world. But feel free to point it out, because I'd love to be wrong on that and just whine about ISK faucets in the blind too.
Orgasmadrone
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#248 - 2017-06-02 03:56:03 UTC
Snow Ozran wrote:
Morrigan Laima wrote:

Unpopular opinion here, but Nerf the ability to scale, and not the yield. Not just for Rorquals, but exhumers, barges, ishtars, and any other clever ways people find to simultaneously make income on dozens of clients at a time. It's not healthy that a few outliers can completely distort the economy, and it's also not healthy that CCP as a company gets a disproportionate amount of subscriber income from heavy multiboxers.


They don't get a disproportionate amount of sub money from multiboxers. The purpose of multiboxing is to sub all your accounts for isk. Multiboxers increase the price of plex, not provide more plex to the market which would reduce the price of plex.


So are you suggesting fewer people buying plexes, reducing the demand so prices for plex drop, so fewer people have the need to convert real money into Plex... Something something... Brilliant! I think you just won! You have my permission to go out and reproduce.
Snow Ozran
Rabble Inc.
Northern Coalition.
#249 - 2017-06-02 04:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Ozran
Orgasmadrone wrote:
Snow Ozran wrote:
Morrigan Laima wrote:

Unpopular opinion here, but Nerf the ability to scale, and not the yield. Not just for Rorquals, but exhumers, barges, ishtars, and any other clever ways people find to simultaneously make income on dozens of clients at a time. It's not healthy that a few outliers can completely distort the economy, and it's also not healthy that CCP as a company gets a disproportionate amount of subscriber income from heavy multiboxers.


They don't get a disproportionate amount of sub money from multiboxers. The purpose of multiboxing is to sub all your accounts for isk. Multiboxers increase the price of plex, not provide more plex to the market which would reduce the price of plex.


So are you suggesting fewer people buying plexes, reducing the demand so prices for plex drop, so fewer people have the need to convert real money into Plex... Something something... Brilliant! I think you just won! You have my permission to go out and reproduce.


So are you suggesting fewer people buying plexes, reducing the demand so prices for plex drop, [so fewer people have the need to convert real money into Plex] <- that part... maybe.

The number of people who chose to buy isk using plex purchased with real money instead of earning it in game is not only controlled by the value of plex. For some people it is just easier to buy isk with real money cause they have more money than time. At which point those people would need to buy more plex with real money to buy the in game assets they want. At this point in your argument you need a lot more data and understanding of economics than I have to determine what the far reaching effect will be.
Julia Zamorska
GreenSwarm
#250 - 2017-06-02 04:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Julia Zamorska
Snow Ozran wrote:
Morrigan Laima wrote:
Snow Ozran wrote:
Morrigan Laima wrote:

Unpopular opinion here, but Nerf the ability to scale, and not the yield. Not just for Rorquals, but exhumers, barges, ishtars, and any other clever ways people find to simultaneously make income on dozens of clients at a time. It's not healthy that a few outliers can completely distort the economy, and it's also not healthy that CCP as a company gets a disproportionate amount of subscriber income from heavy multiboxers.


They don't get a disproportionate amount of sub money from multiboxers. The purpose of multiboxing is to sub all your accounts for isk. Multiboxers increase the price of plex, not provide more plex to the market which would reduce the price of plex.



500 PLEX still represents a sub that someone paid CCP real money for. The fact that there's a middleman involves does not change the fact that the subscription is income for CCP.


I am not disputing that. I am simply saying that the plex would be on the market whether people multiboxed or not. More multiboxers does not mean more plex, it just means more expensive plex.



Well... yes. But also no. PLEXes will be on the market, but less than now. People buy plex and put in on the market to get ISK for it. If some people would stop buying them, the price will drop. If the price will drop significantly then people will stop buying plexes and will buy them on market for ISKs, because buying plexes for real money wont be as sufficient as now. This will make plexes go higher in price again. But still it wont come back to the price or amount that it was. Because people will unsub chars due to nerfs. Less chars to plex = less people to buy them = lower price = less people buy plex for real money = lower income for CCP.

Also to all people "hahahah git gud gewns": Remember that cheaper minerals mean cheaper ships etc
Jonathan Rotineque
Malleus Clusores
Brothers of Tangra
#251 - 2017-06-02 04:34:25 UTC
I read through the forum and see the usual 'End of the Game' rhetoric. Not seeing how this 'Ends' the game.

We are not quite big enough to be impacted by the Belt cool down timers. If we grow much more, we will be. So that part of this update goes as advertised for us, for now.

This is obviously an attempt to reign in mega Corps that do MASS mining. A kind of targeted taxation of ability. I suspect those that can kill a Colossal belt won't wait for the cool down timer. They can simply plan ahead and do Large, Enormous, then Colossal belt then return to the Large when it respawns which is likely to be before they finish the E and C belts.

Even if I am wrong and they can tear through those belts faster than the Large respawn rate, they simply plan a little further ahead and bump index on a secondary system, install a beacon and go. Transitioning to the secondary system now becomes the only real slowdown.

Want to really spice up the mining game CCP? How about bringing back those Sig Belts? Hmm? Take those Mining fish out of the barrel make those hunting them earn it.

Too old hat? Ok, How about just One or two Actual Ore Belts in each system instead of the Ore Blobs we have. How about belts that wrap around the Sun or a couple of different planets. Each belt with 2 or 3 default warp ins.

With either the sig belts or the Wrapped belts Those hunting miners now have to exert an ounce of effort to scan them down. Probably results in more Rorqual kills initially as people get a false sense of security. Scanning down Orcas and Rorquals isn't what I would call a real challenge.

As to those Excavators, really? What is the point of Excavators any more? When we could mine 5x faster than a Boosted Hulk, 5 Bill for a rack of drones made Risk/Reward sense. Now that the benefit has been cut by more than half, and you make them slower easier targets that currently have glass tanking, it makes a lot LESS sense to medium and small corps.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2017-06-02 04:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Jesus, did goons call a CTA on this post?

Anyways, what are we down to now? 2 effective barges worth?
Jasdemi
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#253 - 2017-06-02 04:53:35 UTC
"haha, made you inject into Rorquals" - Fozzie, probably.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#254 - 2017-06-02 05:07:45 UTC
TLDR : should have always been Rorq = boost/utility ship, XYZ=micromanaged capital mining vessel. But since CCP felt the need to make the Rorq and actual mining vessel all this has turned into is a bait and switch to the players who invested in them.



I said it before Rorq ever came out. I'll say it again.

The Rorq should have had it's build cost reduced to that of a carrier. It should have only ever had 1 hulk worth of mining capabilities (rigs should not have effected excavators-i was actually against excavators altogether). The Industrial core should have never locked you in place, prevented jumping but not warping. This would have prevented infinite scaling and kept it as a boosting/utility mining vessel.

At the same time they should have released an actual capital mining vessel around the cost of a Dreadnought. This ship would have been given the ability to mine the equivalent of around 5 hulks by use of a single mining laser. Use would have activated a minigame type window where you had to actively guide the laser to keep it centered on the asteroid to successfully mine. Basically the longer the laser is kept centered the higher yield obtained. Which would have prevented the infinite scaling issues we see today while rewarding the individual players who took the time to skill into these ships.

So, that said, at this point the constant nerfing just feels like more and more of a bait and switch to those who skilled into a Rorq. These mistakes in balance and scalability were pointed out before their release but to a deaf ear. Now they are out and constantly getting nefed, and surprise surprise people are upset because you promised them one thing and are constantly taking that away bit by bit.
Gavin Tremlor
30plus
Goonswarm Federation
#255 - 2017-06-02 06:01:43 UTC
I can honestly say I'm not one to freak out over announced nerfs for the most part. In fact, I don't believe I have ever posted in response to one before. However, the level to which mining has been nerfed recently is simply beyond comprehension.

Additionally, you have finally hit upon the way to ruin my defense of all the previous nerfs. I have been saying for months to the various butthurt rorqual pilots that they should just go back to mining in sub caps as "nothing has changed" from when they used to do it prior to super-rorqual 2016. However, with this cooldown thing... congrats. I can no longer speak in your defense at all.

*Cheers*
Lakutus Borg
G H O S T B I R D S
#256 - 2017-06-02 06:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lakutus Borg
Hey

Well this sux....

Ive wasted billions in skill books and injectors to be able to fly a rorq soon...

And now u do YET another nerf...

I can understand the yeild nerf but come on 5h respawn time WTF mate...

Plus is it goons fault that we have a working system to fly rorqs?

You have made a game that is player built and now u punish
the player for using your system.

What are u going to nerf next supercaps ratting isk/h ratio ?
Supercaps do 350-400m/h i think u should nerf that to tbh i mean why not right?

I was thinking of coming to eve fanfeast 2018 not so sure anymore....

Why nerf all the time why dont u boost exhumers instead?

I cant fly a rorq yet but as a aspiring mining pilot im 100% dependent on a rorq for boost when im mining
with my 2xHulks... I dont even undock if there aint boost on field cause its not worth it.

I can play 2-3h max a day and mining with no rorq boost yeild me what 100m for 2-3h mined with no boost = WASTE OF TIME!
Lakutus Borg
G H O S T B I R D S
#257 - 2017-06-02 06:09:38 UTC
Amber Hurtini wrote:
Radious Servasse wrote:
Maybe they think that by lowering the amount of ore mined it will raise ore prices so overall the actual isk mined stays the same. So if this is their master plan, they are not targeting miners, they are targeting everyone in eve. More costs involved in buying ships.

But from I've noticed, what goes well in theory doesn't always go that well in practice. Just some Rad thought.



If that is the case should they be targeting the biggest ISK faucet there is in Eve? Null Sec ratting and incursion running. maybe they need to take 15% reduction in isk and LP earned?

In Empire you can make anywhere from 80 mill an hour to 180mil an hour. null sec ratting is about the same depending on how you do this and what ship you are flying.

It all comes down to the basic isk per hour ratio. and the rorqual out in the mine field munching on rocks is a rather large target if you are not paying attention to your intell channel. Risk versus reward and you got 12bil isk ship on the field you should be not be hit by the nerf bat only to find out that the nerf family came over to visit a few more times.

A rorqual should be able to mine roughly 120 mil per hour upwards to 180 mill per hour taking in account of skill and dedication into training such a skill intensive ship.

Come on CCP please think. if you plan on hitting one group in the nuts you should hit them ALL in the nuts.



Rorq do around 200-300m/h and that is fine tbh considering the risk is REALY high using one!
Xianax
Wraithlords
#258 - 2017-06-02 06:11:57 UTC
Do they even have an economist at CCP? I think this monitoring the economy stuff is a hot steaming load out of CCP. If they want to fix the amount of ISK flowing in the game they need to nerf bounties by 90%, Nerf ore yield across the board by 80%, reduce mission payouts at all levels by 90%, reduce incursion payouts by 90%. The everyone will really have to buy more PLEX cause everything will be so expensive and take too long to grind for. CCP will be able to line their pockets as PLEX sale will go up when players finally run out of the trillions of isk in their pockets.
Siobhan MacLeary
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#259 - 2017-06-02 06:13:46 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
TLDR : should have always been Rorq = boost/utility ship, XYZ=micromanaged capital mining vessel. But since CCP felt the need to make the Rorq and actual mining vessel all this has turned into is a bait and switch to the players who invested in them.



I said it before Rorq ever came out. I'll say it again.

The Rorq should have had it's build cost reduced to that of a carrier. It should have only ever had 1 hulk worth of mining capabilities (rigs should not have effected excavators-i was actually against excavators altogether). The Industrial core should have never locked you in place, prevented jumping but not warping. This would have prevented infinite scaling and kept it as a boosting/utility mining vessel.

At the same time they should have released an actual capital mining vessel around the cost of a Dreadnought. This ship would have been given the ability to mine the equivalent of around 5 hulks by use of a single mining laser. Use would have activated a minigame type window where you had to actively guide the laser to keep it centered on the asteroid to successfully mine. Basically the longer the laser is kept centered the higher yield obtained. Which would have prevented the infinite scaling issues we see today while rewarding the individual players who took the time to skill into these ships.

So, that said, at this point the constant nerfing just feels like more and more of a bait and switch to those who skilled into a Rorq. These mistakes in balance and scalability were pointed out before their release but to a deaf ear. Now they are out and constantly getting nefed, and surprise surprise people are upset because you promised them one thing and are constantly taking that away bit by bit.


When does CCP ever listen to the warnings their playerbase gives them about imbalanced stuff?

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Vitak Zerath
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#260 - 2017-06-02 06:22:55 UTC
The reason why Delve is producing this much minerals is that its probably the safest null sec region right now. A carrier with Calibration 5 can cover nearly all Delve from our stage. So our Rorquals will simply move next systems and be safe as usual.

Week ago i got myself four Rorquals. Despite these changes, im still thinking of getting one or two more.

These changes doesnt seem to be well thought.