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[Mini-blog] The Next Steps in Structure Transition

First post First post
Author
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2017-04-13 12:07:45 UTC
Alia Nadasdy wrote:
C-J6MT belonged to the Red Alliance for a very long time. And you here so want to delete this story?
My friend several times participated in the battles for C-J6MT in the ranks of the legendary Alliance.

C-J6MT = Red Alliance: https://images.stopgame.ru/uploads/images/412837/form/2015/11/08/normal_1447005846.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jXGd1.jpg

Like with empires of RL only history is what survives the time.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#82 - 2017-04-13 14:44:02 UTC
Valkorsia wrote:
What we don't like is being 'setup' by a dev who clearly has an ax to grind with Providence and has lost touch with the very player base he seeks to attract.

I'm having flashbacks to WWB SOTG speeches.

Is that you...mittens?
Cherri Minoa
IronPig
Sev3rance
#83 - 2017-04-13 16:29:18 UTC
The obvious answer to outposts was the one first discussed: just remove all functionality except docking and leave them as historic structures like a disused church or castle. Nobody needed to stir up a storm to promote citadels. In Providence and Dital you can't spit without hitting a dozen citadels. We've embraced them already.

The shame is that CCP say they desperately want to attract new players, but then repeatedly introduce changes that benefit nobody but the same old mega alliances. Providence is almost unique in providing the "null sec experience" to new players. I have over 300 neutral corps and alliances on my access lists and intel channel, and probably the same number of unlisted entities operating in our space. Why break something that is working so well?

This proposal has been described as "The Death of Provi." Well, maybe. I've lived in Provi so long, and seen our death announced so many times, I take it with a pinch of salt. Provi has a habit of not turning up to its own funeral. But yes, it is a threat. A threat to everyone, red grey and blue, who finds so much fun in our systems.

The bigger tragedy is that this may signal "The Death of the Sandbox." The unique selling point of EVE is that content is created by the players, for the players. That's what we've done in Providence. We don't cry when other players drive a bulldozer over us., we accept that kicking the fertiliser out of Provi is part of the game. What we object to is when CCP drive a bulldozer over us and turn the game into yet another theme park.

At least when you log on to World of Warcraft you know it's a theme park. Now in EVE, you spend years building something in what you thought was a sandbox, and then you find you are just pawns - expendable characters - in a story being written by CCP.

"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#84 - 2017-04-13 21:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
Cherri Minoa wrote:
The obvious answer to outposts was the one first discussed: just remove all functionality except docking and leave them as historic structures like a disused church or castle. Nobody needed to stir up a storm to promote citadels. In Providence and Dital you can't spit without hitting a dozen citadels. We've embraced them already.

The shame is that CCP say they desperately want to attract new players, but then repeatedly introduce changes that benefit nobody but the same old mega alliances. Providence is almost unique in providing the "null sec experience" to new players. I have over 300 neutral corps and alliances on my access lists and intel channel, and probably the same number of unlisted entities operating in our space. Why break something that is working so well?

This proposal has been described as "The Death of Provi." Well, maybe. I've lived in Provi so long, and seen our death announced so many times, I take it with a pinch of salt. Provi has a habit of not turning up to its own funeral. But yes, it is a threat. A threat to everyone, red grey and blue, who finds so much fun in our systems.

The bigger tragedy is that this may signal "The Death of the Sandbox." The unique selling point of EVE is that content is created by the players, for the players. That's what we've done in Providence. We don't cry when other players drive a bulldozer over us., we accept that kicking the fertiliser out of Provi is part of the game. What we object to is when CCP drive a bulldozer over us and turn the game into yet another theme park.

At least when you log on to World of Warcraft you know it's a theme park. Now in EVE, you spend years building something in what you thought was a sandbox, and then you find you are just pawns - expendable characters - in a story being written by CCP.



I can only assume you have been asleep since early 2014 when the first dev blog came out for new structures and the ENTIRE theme was EVERYTHING should be destructible. You have waited 3 years to finally say you don't like it?

CCP have been extremely forthcoming in their plans in that regard.

As far as your "Ax grinder" statement, remember the current team 5-0 is NOT the team that started structures, not many currently on 5-0 were on the previous team at citadel expansion. They haven't made up anything new just to **** over Provi, they have pretty much followed the vision of the previous team and carried out their plan.

rest assured, you can put away your tin foil for the time being. Don't mind the black helicopters flying around your house either....
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#85 - 2017-04-14 00:26:52 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Cherri Minoa wrote:
The obvious answer to outposts was the one first discussed: just remove all functionality except docking and leave them as historic structures like a disused church or castle. Nobody needed to stir up a storm to promote citadels. In Providence and Dital you can't spit without hitting a dozen citadels. We've embraced them already.

The shame is that CCP say they desperately want to attract new players, but then repeatedly introduce changes that benefit nobody but the same old mega alliances. Providence is almost unique in providing the "null sec experience" to new players. I have over 300 neutral corps and alliances on my access lists and intel channel, and probably the same number of unlisted entities operating in our space. Why break something that is working so well?

This proposal has been described as "The Death of Provi." Well, maybe. I've lived in Provi so long, and seen our death announced so many times, I take it with a pinch of salt. Provi has a habit of not turning up to its own funeral. But yes, it is a threat. A threat to everyone, red grey and blue, who finds so much fun in our systems.

The bigger tragedy is that this may signal "The Death of the Sandbox." The unique selling point of EVE is that content is created by the players, for the players. That's what we've done in Providence. We don't cry when other players drive a bulldozer over us., we accept that kicking the fertiliser out of Provi is part of the game. What we object to is when CCP drive a bulldozer over us and turn the game into yet another theme park.

At least when you log on to World of Warcraft you know it's a theme park. Now in EVE, you spend years building something in what you thought was a sandbox, and then you find you are just pawns - expendable characters - in a story being written by CCP.



I can only assume you have been asleep since early 2014 when the first dev blog came out for new structures and the ENTIRE theme was EVERYTHING should be destructible. You have waited 3 years to finally say you don't like it?

CCP have been extremely forthcoming in their plans in that regard.

As far as your "Ax grinder" statement, remember the current team 5-0 is NOT the team that started structures, not many currently on 5-0 were on the previous team at citadel expansion. They haven't made up anything new just to **** over Provi, they have pretty much followed the vision of the previous team and carried out their plan.

rest assured, you can put away your tin foil for the time being. Don't mind the black helicopters flying around your house either....

Ahh yes everything destructible, I wonder how long it will take PL, NC and the like to deploy to Provi once the new outposts become a potential killmail?
Let the GF's begin - There is nothing quite like Supers vs Caracals for an entertaining evening.
*I know Provi can field more than Caracals, just making a point about how uneven the odds could be*..

Provi won't rollover, it won't fade away, it will lose a great deal of structures that can never be replaced.

As for waiting 3 years to speak up.. Many have been speaking up asking questions for that time, unfortunately (as CCP do) no information was available until they decided it was time. That time was a week ago and it is only now we see just how badly this could go for many groups.

There is still more about this change we don't know than what we do - CCP is keeping most of the specific information close (vulnerability, damage caps, timers and more), possibly because they haven't worked it out yet or because they are waiting for player feedback like Cherri Minoa has been offering.

*Tinfoil hat is close by, not wearing it yet though. I'll wait and see what CCP say next*

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#86 - 2017-04-14 00:30:27 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Rowells wrote:
It's going to be really neat seeing nullsec outpost models in empire space

I wonder how highsec/ NulSec NPC stations will be handled as far as ownership, vulnerability and destruction gets handled.

What happens to all those nice safe LowSec NPC stations where FW dudes stage and live?

As far as the current plan (or any hinted/discussed plans) they're not changing at all.

Although I understand the reasons why, I still feel it is a shame especially for LowSec.

I don't fancy wading through all the fanfest footage - Are HighSec and LowSec stations being treated the same as those in Nul as far as industrial things go?

Same as nevyn said, I haven't heard any plans to make NPC stations like player-owned structures at least in the last year.

Destructible FW stations might actually be an interesting concept though.

E: maybe I'm not understanding that second part. What do you mean by "as far as industrial things go"?

Nulsec outposts and stations are having everything turned off, manufacturing, science, reprocessing etc, I am wondering if ALL stations will get the same treatment..
Highsec and lowsec can no longer build in stations but need to use player built structures.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Valkorsia
Spartan Vanguard
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#87 - 2017-04-14 02:15:03 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:


CCP have been extremely forthcoming in their plans ....



Not sure what planet you've been on since 2014, but CCP has never detailed specifics until a week ago - which, of course, is why we're here giving feedback in a feedback thread.


Sgt Ocker wrote:
As for waiting 3 years to speak up.. Many have been speaking up asking questions for that time, unfortunately (as CCP do) no information was available until they decided it was time. That time was a week ago and it is only now we see just how badly this could go for many groups


Sgt Ocker is correct.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#88 - 2017-04-14 03:03:25 UTC
Valkorsia wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:


CCP have been extremely forthcoming in their plans ....



Not sure what planet you've been on since 2014, but CCP has never detailed specifics until a week ago - which, of course, is why we're here giving feedback in a feedback thread.


Sgt Ocker wrote:
As for waiting 3 years to speak up.. Many have been speaking up asking questions for that time, unfortunately (as CCP do) no information was available until they decided it was time. That time was a week ago and it is only now we see just how badly this could go for many groups


Sgt Ocker is correct.



How the hell can you possibly think that anything they did or anything they gave you wouldn't be destructable?

Even if they reimbursed you PI and stuff for the outpost. The outpost was going away and no matter what you replaced it with, it would be destructible.

I don't get how you figured out only last week, no matter what, **** will be in fact, destructable.


Were you hoping to get something "Grandfathered" so that it would last for all eternity?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#89 - 2017-04-14 04:24:59 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Valkorsia wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:


CCP have been extremely forthcoming in their plans ....



Not sure what planet you've been on since 2014, but CCP has never detailed specifics until a week ago - which, of course, is why we're here giving feedback in a feedback thread.


Sgt Ocker wrote:
As for waiting 3 years to speak up.. Many have been speaking up asking questions for that time, unfortunately (as CCP do) no information was available until they decided it was time. That time was a week ago and it is only now we see just how badly this could go for many groups


Sgt Ocker is correct.


Blah Blah Blah


Were you hoping to get something "Grandfathered" so that it would last for all eternity?
As that was an option way back when .....

Also CCP's "EVERYTHING" destructible is somewhat limited to one area of the game that is sadly dominated by the select few with Super Blobs and armies of Dread Alts.

What better way to be rid of those groups who can hold sov but would never want or be able to afford a Keepstar. The game turns to shite the instant Outposts and stations become destructible - All Fozzies lies about small groups holding sov are to become real.

CCP development - Tell'em one thing - Give'em the tools do achieve it - Then shite all over them a few years later.


Bottom line is Devs are pandering to the nul blob, again.


NB; Everything destructible - selectively.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#90 - 2017-04-14 05:20:27 UTC
So, I am confused......

What is left that isn't destructible?

Did you think after 3 years of telling you they want everything to be destructable, they would say "April Fool's" you can keep your outposts?
Punctator
Blackwater Task Forces
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2017-04-14 07:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Punctator
everything should be destroyable even your undestroyable fleet of supers, but destroyable on equal terms for everyone, not altering game politically so much. CCP just set gigantic bounty on cva heads to animate some war and conflict - it is like set minimal/maximal price for tritanium or reset wallets in eve but not for everyone just for some people. You will see one day ccp will change some other old roles... and will say... - example you should understand the best - now titans are for mining! And how will people from PL feel about such change? people will say - **** this **** and stop playing such game because it looks like thair game is not thairs any longer and time is totally wasted.

disrespectful game will be dead sooner or later.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#92 - 2017-04-14 08:59:33 UTC
i do not have a horse in this race,

But in all honestly the outposts should just be disabled of all their services, AND allow nothing more than a frigate to dock up in.
Instead of 'adding' Landmarks, make the structures the Landmark itself, and just put owner timelines or something in their description fields.

IDK, something like first built/deployed on such and such date, then list owners with dates of ownership.
There by preserving our "player community" history and allowing anybody over the next following years that visit them to read said descriptions, etc etc.

Basically turn them into Museums and such, I think that would be a more preferable aspect then taking them away, turning them into something else just for people to fight over.

And I am saying this for all of Nullsec not just Provi. Otherwise maybe Nullseccrs should look to get theirs, unanchor them and store them never to be used ever as a great F-U to CCP.

On another note, where is our Great Illustrious CSM to tell the Devs that this is just garbage.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#93 - 2017-04-14 12:06:07 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
So, I am confused......

What is left that isn't destructible?

Did you think after 3 years of telling you they want everything to be destructable, they would say "April Fool's" you can keep your outposts?

But But,, it isn't EVERYTHING destructible, it is selective.

Everything destructible is a great idea, only IF every part of everything is replaceable.
Setting it up for a significant part of Eve history to be removed from the game is not good design. Especially when it is selective removal - If stations and outposts are to become destructible - ALL stations and outposts need to be treated the same or Eve is not being Eve.


Best option for the games future - Remove ALL functionality (including ownership) except docking from outposts and stations New Eden wide - No exceptions.
They then become their own monuments.


Here's the plaque for B-R5RB.
Somewhere near here once stood a massive structure that had been part of New Eden for many years and was the catalyst for one of the largest battles in Eve's history - But CCP decided this little monument would be better.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#94 - 2017-04-14 12:43:09 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

But But,, it isn't EVERYTHING destructible, it is selective.

Everything destructible is a great idea, only IF every part of everything is replaceable.
Setting it up for a significant part of Eve history to be removed from the game is not good design. Especially when it is selective removal - If stations and outposts are to become destructible - ALL stations and outposts need to be treated the same or Eve is not being Eve.


Best option for the games future - Remove ALL functionality (including ownership) except docking from outposts and stations New Eden wide - No exceptions.
They then become their own monuments.


Here's the plaque for B-R5RB.
Somewhere near here once stood a massive structure that had been part of New Eden for many years and was the catalyst for one of the largest battles in Eve's history - But CCP decided this little monument would be better.

Things are being treated consistantly.
The Conquerable stations have always been different from NPC owned stations.
Stop trying to make a strawman out of the fact that CCP aren't removing NPC stations (Though they could take 90% of them out of highsec and 50% of them out of lowsec and I wouldn't complain) CCP have always said everything PLAYER made should be destructible. Though yes, the original conquerable stations weren't player made. But giving a single region of sov null such a difference wouldn't be good for the game, if they had been evenly spread that would be a different thing.

An actual beacon with a readable lore history is also a lot more use for history than a docking only station that shows nothing and therefore only has meaning to people that already know.
(that then messes with assets, can you dock, leave your ship and warp out, can you do direct trades when two players are docked? See the can of worms it opens even if it's just dockable)
Valkorsia
Spartan Vanguard
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#95 - 2017-04-14 13:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkorsia
Give us a self-destruct button for stations. We'd rather blown them up ourselves than see a dread blob with 50 titan alts from a superpower coalition unanchor faction citadels and whisk off a piece of history as a collectors item.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
All Fozzies lies about small groups holding sov are to become real.

CCP development - Tell'em one thing - Give'em the tools do achieve it - Then shite all over them a few years later.


Bottom line is Devs are pandering to the nul blob, again.




Nailed it. Couldn't have said it better.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#96 - 2017-04-14 13:34:40 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

But But,, it isn't EVERYTHING destructible, it is selective.

Everything destructible is a great idea, only IF every part of everything is replaceable.
Setting it up for a significant part of Eve history to be removed from the game is not good design. Especially when it is selective removal - If stations and outposts are to become destructible - ALL stations and outposts need to be treated the same or Eve is not being Eve.


Best option for the games future - Remove ALL functionality (including ownership) except docking from outposts and stations New Eden wide - No exceptions.
They then become their own monuments.


Here's the plaque for B-R5RB.
Somewhere near here once stood a massive structure that had been part of New Eden for many years and was the catalyst for one of the largest battles in Eve's history - But CCP decided this little monument would be better.

Things are being treated consistantly.
The Conquerable stations have always been different from NPC owned stations.
Stop trying to make a strawman out of the fact that CCP aren't removing NPC stations (Though they could take 90% of them out of highsec and 50% of them out of lowsec and I wouldn't complain) CCP have always said everything PLAYER made should be destructible. Though yes, the original conquerable stations weren't player made. But giving a single region of sov null such a difference wouldn't be good for the game, if they had been evenly spread that would be a different thing.

An actual beacon with a readable lore history is also a lot more use for history than a docking only station that shows nothing and therefore only has meaning to people that already know.
(that then messes with assets, can you dock, leave your ship and warp out, can you do direct trades when two players are docked? See the can of worms it opens even if it's just dockable)

Mr CCP can do no wrong.. You obviously have no imagination but that's a different issue for your wife (or husband) to deal with.

You want to pick differences, I want everything to be treated the same.

The strawman is the one who is blind in one eye and can't see out the other (you in this case).
Of course you then go on to agree with me - Get it together mate or mam as the case may be.

You're either for or against npc stations remaining the same - For is breaking immersion in the WHOLE game because of CCP's inconsistent design.
If the goal is player made structures and everything destructible - It can be done without removing stations and outposts by simply turning them into monuments players can dock in (only). Maybe someone at CCP has the skills to put together a short history of each station with - oh I don't know, a video that can be played with snippets from famous fights, along with a scrolling list of who owned each station / outpost and what if any significance the location holds in the history of Eve. Even some lowsec and highsec stations have interesting stories.
They could even use them to host Eve Fiction, like a library where you can go and read stories written by players and CCP employees - What better place to watch the o7 show than an old station somewhere in new eden while your waiting for the next fleet to go up..

Monuments suck and will become hunting grounds, no-one with a modicum of sense is going to fly out to one and sit and read a short limited blurb about what used to be there..
Just think about it, between your missions in highsec you can go to a different system (if your game enough) and might find something interesting to read and kill time between dismissing that one mission that just isn't worth doing and the next..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2017-04-14 17:10:53 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Cherri Minoa wrote:
The obvious answer to outposts was the one first discussed: just remove all functionality except docking and leave them as historic structures like a disused church or castle. Nobody needed to stir up a storm to promote citadels. In Providence and Dital you can't spit without hitting a dozen citadels. We've embraced them already.

The shame is that CCP say they desperately want to attract new players, but then repeatedly introduce changes that benefit nobody but the same old mega alliances. Providence is almost unique in providing the "null sec experience" to new players. I have over 300 neutral corps and alliances on my access lists and intel channel, and probably the same number of unlisted entities operating in our space. Why break something that is working so well?

This proposal has been described as "The Death of Provi." Well, maybe. I've lived in Provi so long, and seen our death announced so many times, I take it with a pinch of salt. Provi has a habit of not turning up to its own funeral. But yes, it is a threat. A threat to everyone, red grey and blue, who finds so much fun in our systems.

The bigger tragedy is that this may signal "The Death of the Sandbox." The unique selling point of EVE is that content is created by the players, for the players. That's what we've done in Providence. We don't cry when other players drive a bulldozer over us., we accept that kicking the fertiliser out of Provi is part of the game. What we object to is when CCP drive a bulldozer over us and turn the game into yet another theme park.

At least when you log on to World of Warcraft you know it's a theme park. Now in EVE, you spend years building something in what you thought was a sandbox, and then you find you are just pawns - expendable characters - in a story being written by CCP.



I can only assume you have been asleep since early 2014 when the first dev blog came out for new structures and the ENTIRE theme was EVERYTHING should be destructible. You have waited 3 years to finally say you don't like it?

CCP have been extremely forthcoming in their plans in that regard.

As far as your "Ax grinder" statement, remember the current team 5-0 is NOT the team that started structures, not many currently on 5-0 were on the previous team at citadel expansion. They haven't made up anything new just to **** over Provi, they have pretty much followed the vision of the previous team and carried out their plan.

rest assured, you can put away your tin foil for the time being. Don't mind the black helicopters flying around your house either....



You're full of crap..

Lots of us have been arguing the whole time,even at fanfest.....

Team 5 0 led by Fozzie doesn't give a flying feck what the player base think of the changes, they never will.

Fozzie.."so what if players leave, we can always get more"

That's what he thinks of all of us.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Renaissance Federation
#98 - 2017-04-14 19:12:42 UTC
Fozzie i'd encourage you to scrap the Faction Citadel idea, you can keep the fancy rig idea but there's no reason to stick a collectors item into EVE. Especially the way you're implementing it basically allowing a group to Ninja another groups outpost right before change time and then give a week long invulnerability which is perfect for unanchoring the new collectors item.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#99 - 2017-04-14 19:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Drago Shouna wrote:

You're full of crap..

Lots of us have been arguing the whole time,even at fanfest.....

Team 5 0 led by Fozzie doesn't give a flying feck what the player base think of the changes, they never will.

Fozzie.."so what if players leave, we can always get more"

That's what he thinks of all of us.

Sorry couldn't hear you over the resounding applause of multiple presentations regarding destructible structures. Could you say it one more time please? Maybe with enough people to be heard over the crowd.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#100 - 2017-04-14 19:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Fish Hunter wrote:
Especially the way you're implementing it basically allowing a group to Ninja another groups outpost right before change time and then give a week long invulnerability which is perfect for unanchoring the new collectors item.

How does one "ninja" a station? This truly would have been useful information back in WWB. That cleanup took weeks, maybe even months.

Hell, it would have especially nice during the tribute war. I'm sure NC. And horde would have appreciated this kind of info before they spent weeks trying to make progress.