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[Mini-blog] The Next Steps in Structure Transition

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Author
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Renaissance Federation
#101 - 2017-04-14 23:12:12 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Fish Hunter wrote:
Especially the way you're implementing it basically allowing a group to Ninja another groups outpost right before change time and then give a week long invulnerability which is perfect for unanchoring the new collectors item.

How does one "ninja" a station? This truly would have been useful information back in WWB. That cleanup took weeks, maybe even months.

Hell, it would have especially nice during the tribute war. I'm sure NC. And horde would have appreciated this kind of info before they spent weeks trying to make progress.


I guess ninja isn't the right word, I mean to win an outpost you have two 48 hour timers, so the week before an attacker decides to take an outpost to secure it for expansion day. I wonder who gets awarded the faction citadel if an outpost is in freeport mode when the switch happens.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2017-04-14 23:50:55 UTC
Valkorsia wrote:

What we don't like is being 'setup' by a dev who clearly has an ax to grind with Providence and has lost touch with the very player base he seeks to attract.


Setup? Oh please. It's not like Providence is the only region with a lot of outposts. There's outposts everywhere. The only reason you have a target on your back now is because a region that is normally useless to anyone suddenly became useful for something. If you can't defend your own outposts please tell me why you should even be allowed to keep them? Are we playing the same game here?

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Punctator
Blackwater Task Forces
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2017-04-15 01:14:06 UTC
nop - you play much much easier game then people who live in provi.
living in gf, nc or other big aliance is very very easy - even hisec is more dangerous then this big aliances space.
this is real problem of eve - but some scum go to fanfest and clap hands like crazy, and ccp listen to them - they should listen to NO ONE aby be on NO one side.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#104 - 2017-04-15 05:24:16 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Valkorsia wrote:

What we don't like is being 'setup' by a dev who clearly has an ax to grind with Providence and has lost touch with the very player base he seeks to attract.


Setup? Oh please. It's not like Providence is the only region with a lot of outposts. There's outposts everywhere. The only reason you have a target on your back now is because a region that is normally useless to anyone suddenly became useful for something. If you can't defend your own outposts please tell me why you should even be allowed to keep them? Are we playing the same game here?

Says a representative of the once largest blob in the game who simply packed up and ran when they finally got the war they had been asking for.

If we learned nothing else from WWB, it is that no matter how big you are a determined group will beat you down - take what is yours - and in Goons case, with little fuss.

Provi has always been the place others go when they want good fights or to just stomp on others. The thing Provi residents had going for them was that no matter how badly they got stomped the main infrastructure to rebuild (the many outposts they have built over the years) was always there.

TigerXtrm - If you can be bothered, take a look at DotLan and you might just notice Provi has the highest concentration of outposts of any region in the game.

-- - -- - -- - --
A couple of weeks or even months of preparation to end up with an item that (you can't really put a price on) can never be replaced, who isn't planning for that already??

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Cherri Minoa
IronPig
Sev3rance
#105 - 2017-04-15 10:48:13 UTC
Let me state the problem again ...

In a SANDBOX game the DEVS create the ENVIRONMENT and the PLAYERS create the CONTENT

In a THEME PARK game the DEVS create both, and the PLAYERS simply act out a role within the script

I have no problem at all if players want to come and fight in Provi. Provi is open for a fight 24/365. My home system KBP7-G is currently listed 4th most violent in null-sec. It already provides more content than 99% of null-sec, especially the cosy NBSI deep null that the big power brokers inhabit. If players want to come and start a war in Provi, that's fine. It's happened many times, and although we may not be the biggest or the best, we fight our corner and we don't cry about it.

This situation is totally different. If these proposals go ahead and lead to Provi getting a right royal kicking, it is not because the players chose to start a war. It is because CCP have deliberately chosen to engineer a war. They could have introduced these changes in any number of ways, but have proposed the one way that will create a fight where none existed before.

Our message to CCP ... it's not your job to start a war. That's the job of the players. Your job is to fix all the broken crap and make the sandbox a better sandbox. A sandbox that attracts new players. A sandbox that retains players. A sandbox where we, the players, can write our own story, not become bit part actors in yours.

"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson

TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2017-04-15 14:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: TigerXtrm
Sgt Ocker wrote:
[quote=TigerXtrm]
Says a representative of the once largest blob in the game who simply packed up and ran when they finally got the war they had been asking for.

If we learned nothing else from WWB, it is that no matter how big you are a determined group will beat you down - take what is yours - and in Goons case, with little fuss.

Provi has always been the place others go when they want good fights or to just stomp on others. The thing Provi residents had going for them was that no matter how badly they got stomped the main infrastructure to rebuild (the many outposts they have built over the years) was always there.

TigerXtrm - If you can be bothered, take a look at DotLan and you might just notice Provi has the highest concentration of outposts of any region in the game.

-- - -- - -- - --
A couple of weeks or even months of preparation to end up with an item that (you can't really put a price on) can never be replaced, who isn't planning for that already??


Again, yours aren't the only outposts at stake. Every outpost, of every group, big and small, is being changed to a Citadel. The game has changed, infrastructure is now much more vulnerable. That's part of the game design changes CCP set out to make. And what is essentially happening with Providence is that the groups living there have only been 'allowed' to grow to their current size because no-one had an interest in evicting them. No-one wanted to bother taking over the region because no-one wants to own the region. It's really that simple. If your only viable defense of these outposts used to be "we'll take them back when the bullies leave" then you don't deserve to have them, period. Adapt or die.

In other words, if you can't defend your outposts now, you couldn't have defended them before. And the only reason you've made it this long is because other groups let you. Say what you want about the Casino War, but any entity is welcome to try and steal our outposts in Delve and I will guarantee it won't be worth the trouble for anyone. Stealing the outposts in Provi is relatively easy and can be done with minimal losses. That's the difference. Is that fair? No. But EVE isn't a fair game. See it as paying the price for being left to prosper for so long with relatively little opposition.

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Dark Eulogy
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2017-04-15 15:00:52 UTC
Hi CCP

I think the new structures are cool and fun and the conversion of conquerable to faction ones will be great, but I would like to bring up a point I think is needed to bring balance across all structures in the game

Right now it is possible to swap clones within a Structure without activating a jump clone timer

As outposts/stations are changed to structures I think the ability to do this should extend to NPC owned stations - those that will be remaining in high, low, and NPC nullsec



Cherri Minoa
IronPig
Sev3rance
#108 - 2017-04-15 15:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cherri Minoa
TigerXtrm wrote:
[quote=Sgt Ocker][quote=TigerXtrm]

Again, yours aren't the only outposts at stake. Every outpost, of every group, big and small, is being changed to a Citadel. The game has changed, infrastructure is now much more vulnerable. That's part of the game design changes CCP set out to make. And what is essentially happening with Providence is that the groups living there have only been 'allowed' to grow to their current size because no-one had an interest in evicting them. No-one wanted to bother taking over the region because no-one wants to own the region. It's really that simple. If your only viable defense of these outposts used to be "we'll take them back when the bullies leave" then you don't deserve to have them, period. Adapt or die.

In other words, if you can't defend your outposts now, you couldn't have defended them before. And the only reason you've made it this long is because other groups let you. Say what you want about the Casino War, but any entity is welcome to try and steal our outposts in Delve and I will guarantee it won't be worth the trouble for anyone. Stealing the outposts in Provi is relatively easy and can be done with minimal losses. That's the difference. Is that fair? No. But EVE isn't a fair game. See it as paying the price for being left to prosper for so long with relatively little opposition.


You are making some valid points there, but you're drawing the wrong conclusions. What you are saying actually supports our argument.

A large factor in the survival of Provi has indeed been that it's a crap area and nobody else wants it. It's a bit smelly and run down. For those of you in the UK, think of Reading. So, over the years, the Big Boys have grabbed the juicy regions, and the poor cousins who didn't have the military clout took Providence and made the best they could of it. People come for good fights, but nobody wants to stay, that's been our defence. And that is precisely how a sandbox should work. It evolves, it develops over time in response to the environment.

And then one day along come CCP and wave a magic wand and Provi becomes valuable. The balance is shattered - deliberately shattered. Adapt or die? We have spent more than 10 years adapting to our environment and the political landscape. But you can't adapt to a change that is just dumped on you from above, that suddenly turns a craphole into a gold mine. That is deliberate content engineering by CCP, and it has no place in a sandbox game.

Imagine you are wandering around inside the lion enclosure at the zoo, and you don't get eaten because you are a bit scrawny and smell wrong. (Nothing personal, I don't know if you are scrawny or how you smell, it's just an analogy.) Then suddenly I get a hosepipe and spray you head to toe in "Eau De Antelope." How are you going to adapt to that? The only reason you went in the lion enclosure in the first place was because you knew you weren't appetising, and now I've given you the lion equivalent of a Michelin star. You can't adapt to that, because I have deliberately engineered the whole situation.

"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson

Valkorsia
Spartan Vanguard
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#109 - 2017-04-15 15:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkorsia
Cherri Minoa wrote:


And then one day along come CCP and wave a magic wand and Provi becomes valuable. The balance is shattered - deliberately shattered. Adapt or die? We have spent more than 10 years adapting to our environment and the political landscape. But you can't adapt to a change that is just dumped on you from above, that suddenly turns a craphole into a gold mine. That is deliberate content engineering by CCP, and it has no place in a sandbox game.


You forgot only one thing, Cherri. It's 'deliberate content engineering' that favors only a handful of the largest entities in game. The blob with the biggest guns wins. So the message from CCP is really simple, right? Join one of three or four major coalitions in game. Anything outside that has no chance at survival.

That said, anyone whose ever fought here or against us knows we don't lay down and take a beating. We may lose the overall war, but there's always expensive, costly battlefield losses for our enemies. The schoolyard bully will leave with a bloody nose and a few broken bones.
Circumstantial Evidence
#110 - 2017-04-15 17:22:22 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
... any entity is welcome to try and steal our outposts in Delve and I will guarantee it won't be worth the trouble for anyone. Stealing the outposts in Provi is relatively easy and can be done with minimal losses...
Buying popcorn now. Who will want this high concentration of easy pickings more... The Imperium, NC/PL, others?
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2017-04-15 18:18:05 UTC
Cherri Minoa wrote:
And then one day along come CCP and wave a magic wand and Provi becomes valuable. The balance is shattered - deliberately shattered. Adapt or die? We have spent more than 10 years adapting to our environment and the political landscape. But you can't adapt to a change that is just dumped on you from above, that suddenly turns a craphole into a gold mine. That is deliberate content engineering by CCP, and it has no place in a sandbox game.


I see what you're saying, but accusing CCP of having a grudge against Providence in particular is kind of silly. There is no clean way to do this transition. Phasing out a 10+ year old system is going to be messy no matter how you do it.

The alternative here, of course, would have been to do the transition silently. Not involve the player base at all so no-one is the wiser until patch day. But CCP has had its share of backlash for doing this sort of thing and not talking to the players about it. So can you really blame them?

The way we should probably look at this is as follows. At the end of the day there were probably two options on the table. 1. Remove outposts all together without any sort of replacement and be done with it. 2. The current Citadel replacement.

Providence would have been f*cked over either way. And I don't think this option was ever meant to be a 'fair and just reimbursement' type deal. Doing it this way creates obvious content for null-sec. Not just in Providence, but everywhere. New things to fight over that, once they blow up, are never coming back. What CCP essentially created is a limited time 'king of the hill' event. Who ever can keep hold of their limited faction Citadel the longest wins. In a couple of years time there will only be one faction Citadel left and then the event will be over and laughs can be had.

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Punctator
Blackwater Task Forces
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2017-04-15 19:04:14 UTC
you are just sharpening your teeth for isk you dont deserve and should not have. Teling here is a not way to transit it without hurt is just a lie.
Cherri Minoa
IronPig
Sev3rance
#113 - 2017-04-15 19:33:20 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:


-snip-

The way we should probably look at this is as follows. At the end of the day there were probably two options on the table. 1. Remove outposts all together without any sort of replacement and be done with it. 2. The current Citadel replacement.


Option 3. Just remove the functionality and leave them as disused structures, monuments to a technology that has been superseded.

Anybody who wants to can still come to Provi and have a war. We have plenty of citadels to shoot, plenty of systems to conquer. But that wouldn't happen, because as we both agree Provi is a rubbish region that nobody except us wants. The only reason for people to take an interest in Provi is because CCP are effectively paying the big alliances to come and start a war here.

Do you really want it said that you can't create your own content, and you have to get CCP to create it for you?

"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson

TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2017-04-15 20:02:51 UTC
Cherri Minoa wrote:

Do you really want it said that you can't create your own content, and you have to get CCP to create it for you?


Plenty of content to go around. This just creates more of it.

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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#115 - 2017-04-16 06:00:01 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Cherri Minoa wrote:

Do you really want it said that you can't create your own content, and you have to get CCP to create it for you?


Plenty of content to go around. This just creates more of it.



Good ol'structure bash and timer content. The best kind of them all.... oh wait... we use magical lasers now. At least cats will have fun grinding down Provi before the patch hits. For the rest of us it's time to break out the entosis Drakes and find a new Netflix series to watch.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#116 - 2017-04-16 12:41:02 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
[quote=TigerXtrm]
Says a representative of the once largest blob in the game who simply packed up and ran when they finally got the war they had been asking for.

If we learned nothing else from WWB, it is that no matter how big you are a determined group will beat you down - take what is yours - and in Goons case, with little fuss.

Provi has always been the place others go when they want good fights or to just stomp on others. The thing Provi residents had going for them was that no matter how badly they got stomped the main infrastructure to rebuild (the many outposts they have built over the years) was always there.

TigerXtrm - If you can be bothered, take a look at DotLan and you might just notice Provi has the highest concentration of outposts of any region in the game.

-- - -- - -- - --
A couple of weeks or even months of preparation to end up with an item that (you can't really put a price on) can never be replaced, who isn't planning for that already??


Again, yours aren't the only outposts at stake. Every outpost, of every group, big and small, is being changed to a Citadel. The game has changed, infrastructure is now much more vulnerable. That's part of the game design changes CCP set out to make. And what is essentially happening with Providence is that the groups living there have only been 'allowed' to grow to their current size because no-one had an interest in evicting them. No-one wanted to bother taking over the region because no-one wants to own the region. It's really that simple. If your only viable defense of these outposts used to be "we'll take them back when the bullies leave" then you don't deserve to have them, period. Adapt or die.

In other words, if you can't defend your outposts now, you couldn't have defended them before. And the only reason you've made it this long is because other groups let you. Say what you want about the Casino War, but any entity is welcome to try and steal our outposts in Delve and I will guarantee it won't be worth the trouble for anyone. Stealing the outposts in Provi is relatively easy and can be done with minimal losses. That's the difference. Is that fair? No. But EVE isn't a fair game. See it as paying the price for being left to prosper for so long with relatively little opposition.

Can't see the big picture? I feel sorry for you, being so narrow minded must be hard.

What CCP will achieve from this is the loss of a play style many have put a lot of time and effort into creating, from both Provi residents and those who go to fight them.
Eve is the ultimate loser if NRDS space is opened up to be ransacked.

Oh and just to be clear - Even after these changes, no-one else will want Provi except Provi residents.

And i really do call BS to your comment about everyone who owns outposts facing the same risk..
That's a comment someone who doesn't live in nul would make, simply because they don't know any better. You should..


NB; I'm not a provi resident, I hunt and die there (occasionally) AND enjoy the content, which I've struggled to find elsewhere, the region brings.,.

-- - -- - -- - --
If CCP is fixed on the idea of changing outposts and making them unanchorable there needs to be a mechanic that stops them being easily relocated (or left in someones hangar as a collectors item)
These are an iconic part of New Eden that once removed by destruction or un-anchoring can never be replaced. ( a little monument - Is a joke)

Making something that can never be replaced vulnerable to destruction - Not a very realistic long term plan.

Everything destructible is great in an ideal world - Eve is not an ideal world (by design) and so the ideal could have far reaching long term negative outcomes, not just the destruction or removal of and outpost but the extinction of those groups unable to defend against the overpowering blobs.

Suggestion;
You want to take and move one of them, you must own it for 6 months before you can un-anchor it.
Holding outposts takes commitment (even if you "only" take them back once the baddies move on).
As they can never be replaced - The ability to move/remove them, either by destruction or un-anchoring, should take an exceptional commitment.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2017-04-17 12:50:39 UTC
i don't get why poland, er, providence, is so unhappy over the upcoming partitioning

it'll only last for like a month and then they can go back to living in providence
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#118 - 2017-04-17 15:01:40 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
i don't get why poland, er, providence, is so unhappy over the upcoming partitioning

it'll only last for like a month and then they can go back to living in providence



hmph, it is about preserving a piece of history, forever.

But since you are referencing poland, I will reference Germany, WWII, and everyone involved in that despicable era where pieces of art, history, etc were lost, burned up, sequestered in places unknown that the rest of the world will never get back nor see again. Which has been garbage for the generations that came after that era.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#119 - 2017-04-17 16:52:20 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
i don't get why poland, er, providence, is so unhappy over the upcoming partitioning

it'll only last for like a month and then they can go back to living in providence



hmph, it is about preserving a piece of history, forever.

But since you are referencing poland, I will reference Germany, WWII, and everyone involved in that despicable era where pieces of art, history, etc were lost, burned up, sequestered in places unknown that the rest of the world will never get back nor see again. Which has been garbage for the generations that came after that era.


^^ This is a good comparison.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2017-04-17 18:52:08 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
i don't get why poland, er, providence, is so unhappy over the upcoming partitioning

it'll only last for like a month and then they can go back to living in providence



hmph, it is about preserving a piece of history, forever.

But since you are referencing poland, I will reference Germany, WWII, and everyone involved in that despicable era where pieces of art, history, etc were lost, burned up, sequestered in places unknown that the rest of the world will never get back nor see again. Which has been garbage for the generations that came after that era.


There's nothing artistic about Providence, though.

It's a hole. A condemned hole, for squatter hobbits.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.