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Pirate Battleships & Absurd Ganker Arguments

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Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#321 - 2017-02-27 22:13:17 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
This thread has taught me that carebears really do just want everything handed to them.


Oh, please. I can't even tank my miner without a great deal of cross training. Am I carebear? I suppose so, but one who has tried a **** load of fitting, and usually let's you waltz off when you lose. Unlike you, I don't pin you down with a warp scrambler, and pay the piper for a killmaill.

Since THE GAME, and THE PLAYERS, WON'T LET ME tank my CAREBEAR SHIP?

Well, isn't it you that want's my ass handed to you, on a platter, in all reality?

Um, what? It literally takes a matter of minutes to train up the relevant skills to put together a formidable tank on the procurer/skiff. In the case of the procurer, you can easily force any gankers that want you dead to spend more killing you than you'd lose in a gank.


True. And I have done that. It's the only ship I have that uses shields.

'I'm not going to be caught tinkering with the deflectors when species 8472 attacks. We're going to fight them, in FULL cooperation, WITH the Borg!'

I can do that better when you let me use what I can do best. No matter. In this one role of the game, it's not fair.

What's not fair? That mining barges don't armour tank or that you actually have a choice between yield and tank?

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Amojin
Doomheim
#322 - 2017-02-27 22:16:46 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
This thread has taught me that carebears really do just want everything handed to them.


Oh, please. I can't even tank my miner without a great deal of cross training. Am I carebear? I suppose so, but one who has tried a **** load of fitting, and usually let's you waltz off when you lose. Unlike you, I don't pin you down with a warp scrambler, and pay the piper for a killmaill.

Since THE GAME, and THE PLAYERS, WON'T LET ME tank my CAREBEAR SHIP?

Well, isn't it you that want's my ass handed to you, on a platter, in all reality?

Um, what? It literally takes a matter of minutes to train up the relevant skills to put together a formidable tank on the procurer/skiff. In the case of the procurer, you can easily force any gankers that want you dead to spend more killing you than you'd lose in a gank.


True. And I have done that. It's the only ship I have that uses shields.

'I'm not going to be caught tinkering with the deflectors when species 8472 attacks. We're going to fight them, in FULL cooperation, WITH the Borg!'

I can do that better when you let me use what I can do best. No matter. In this one role of the game, it's not fair.

What's not fair? That mining barges don't armour tank or that you actually have a choice between yield and tank?


That my choice is not a choice.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#323 - 2017-02-27 22:26:38 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
What's not fair? That mining barges don't armour tank or that you actually have a choice between yield and tank?


That my choice is not a choice.

You have a choice between tank and yield. Each option comes with different play styles and associated risks. Choose whichever best suits you.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#324 - 2017-02-27 23:32:07 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:

You have a choice between tank and yield. Each option comes with different play styles and associated risks. Choose whichever best suits you.

Mining barges do not have a choice the way other ships.do however. They have very limited slots and insanely low pg & cpu. Most of your choice is purely dependant on the hull.
Compare this to.combat ships where you get the option to glass cannon, balanced or brick tank all on the same hull. And you can speed tank, fit Ewart etc as well.

Suffice to say the general design philosophy of industry type ships has flaws.
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#325 - 2017-02-28 00:31:02 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It hurts and violates the target, and makes them susceptible to attack.


Hurts? No damage is incurred, no action is forced or prevented.
Violates? It's hard to win any fight by violating anything, something has to get damaged. As far as susceptibility to attack goes, target lock makes them susceptible to attack, being visible on d-scan makes them susceptible to attack.
The fact of the matter is that undocking makes a ship susceptible to attack, after that the fray has been entered and begging for non-combat status is not going to work.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

They should be able to defend themselves at the point of such an intrusion intended to inform a suicide gank on them


There are ways to avoid being scanned, but for a freighter it's a matter of not filling a max capacity fit hull with delicious goodies and autopiloting. There's been a waterfall of nerfs to hisec violence in the last few years, from crimewatch making fighting a baffling highspeed card-trick to actual changes to mechanics. Arguing to make cargo scanning a suspect offence isn't sustainable, in fact a less violent hisec buffs the afk farm-in-safety mode that i've seen people fester in for years.

nevyn Auscent wrote:
Compare this to.combat ships where you get the option to glass cannon, balanced or brick tank all on the same hull. And you can speed tank, fit Ewart etc as well.

The barges/exhumers get this choice between tank and yield. I have lost kills to ECM mids on lowsec miners. I have killed torp bombers and svipuls that didn't know a Procurer can have 70k ehp and horrifying drone bonuses. This is on ships that aren't meant to be combat but backed up by combat ships. Combat capable miners would also foster disengaged farming.

Seeing 8 Skiffs in a hisec belt is a straight tragedy, not because i'm some kid stuck in that lol i annoy joo phase, but because some damn fool is logging on to scratch up microscopic crumbs while not actually paying any attention to the game. He's doing nothing and preventing all interaction, depriving others of gameplay as well.
A dead spot in the sky.




Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#326 - 2017-02-28 00:33:47 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Mining barges do not have a choice the way other ships.do however. They have very limited slots and insanely low pg & cpu. Most of your choice is purely dependant on the hull.
Compare this to.combat ships where you get the option to glass cannon, balanced or brick tank all on the same hull. And you can speed tank, fit Ewart etc as well.

Suffice to say the general design philosophy of industry type ships has flaws.

It's not really any different for mining ships. You either fit to be ganked - or you fit to tank.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#327 - 2017-02-28 00:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron
For gods sake will someone form a blue community in hi sec and teach these complainers how to play Eve..

And for Gods sake will all you complainers just be humble and listen for once in your Eve life...

Look, If anyone has any questions about how to do something in Eve I am open to helping with advice. Drop me a mail anytime. Within Eve the safest style of play is to prevent things from happening.

I am going to start somewhat of a blue community in hi sec at some point. It will be similar to previous ventures. I am hoping to work with knowledgeable people who understand risk. Together we can move forward and take part in giving advice, arranging NPC/PVP ops, and generally create a platform for anything Eve related for the solo and little guys among us.

Just to be clear, this venture is not a corp or alliance..dont get involved if you just want to recruit people and boost your corp numbers, get involved because you see the benefit of having blues and making friends and working together on a relaxed and fun basis.

Just know that I am one of the good guys so this venture will be geared toward helping the downtrodden small corp or solo little guy flourish.

I'll keep you posted.

EDIT: this will be pretty cool actually..One of the first things we can do is establish an intel channel. We can report the ganking hotspots and try to ensure the intel gets to our blues around the area. Hopefully this will bring a reduction in ganking through player intervention where CCP's game mechanic design will have nothing to do with it. I see fun times ahead, im pretty excited in all honesty.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#328 - 2017-02-28 00:45:46 UTC
Good luck with your 'venture' (pun intended).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#329 - 2017-02-28 03:29:49 UTC
There's already a busy anti-ganking channel, much used by gankers. Anyone who uses it is already situationally aware enough to avoid most hisec shenanigans and just needs to vent. I think it's okay because it lets like-minded people glom together, but i can't bring myself to get too interested in actually jumping down into the cesspit of engaging with hisec pvpers.
Just leave the rookie pond. All the pve wealth and significant pvp activity happens outside it.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#330 - 2017-02-28 06:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Aaron wrote:
For gods sake will someone form a blue community in hi sec and teach these complainers how to play Eve..

What do you think the New Order is doing?

Our teaching method is called Light Neutron Blaster II

Evil RatKid
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#331 - 2017-02-28 06:26:49 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
What do you think the New Order is doing?

Selling Mining Permits.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#332 - 2017-02-28 06:42:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
What do you think the New Order is doing?

Selling Mining Permits.

Get Yours Today!

Evil RatKid
Lucas Lucias
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#333 - 2017-02-28 06:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Lucias
The OP made a very good point. Hisec is a wasteland because CCP removed the value of being in hisec and now all it really is, is a number of market hubs through some heavily camped pipes.

Aaron you should give up on your hisec idea, there are not enough people interested in doing that, all the new players head straight to null sec with groups like Brave or Pandemic Horde.
Salvos Rhoska
#334 - 2017-02-28 09:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Im not trying to buff/nerf either suicide gankers, or their targets.

Ive considered the repercussions of the change, and others have posted their own predictions.


What Im doing, is looking at the whole EVE jigsaw puzzle, and I see there a puzzle piece that although it fits, it seems to have the wrong image on it which doesnt align with the pieces around it.

Why is such valuable data as another players fit/cargo, obtainable with so little risk/cost/effort?

Do you see what I mean?

Even an Alpha clone in a rookie ship can scan hundreds of targets a day.
Even the scanners are dirt cheap (due to market ofc, im not complaining, just stating fact)

Im aware of the implications of the change I propose.
Im not making the proposal based on those, nor am I blind to them.
Im not stupid, and Ive read every post in this thread.
(My post history has always been pro pvp enabling in HS and elsewhere, and my most severe concerns in EVE are the nigh unmitigated transfer of materials from HS-NS in both directions, and the various forms of free intel cancer)

Im making it on the basis that this piece in the puzzle has characteristics that dont fit the picture of EVE.

A suspect/limited engagement flag is only one option to remedy this.
Another could be increasing scanner duration, or reload times.
Another would be increasing scanner PG/CPU or cap usage.
Etc etc.

The point is that this very valuable data, is too easily acquired, at insufficient reciprocate cost/risk/effort.

Can any of you seriously say you disagree with that?

Repercussions of a change be damned and put aside for the moment, surely we can all agree the above point is objectively valid and out of character for EVE?

PS: Yes, Im aware scanning can be avoided/impaired with double wrapping, trash lists, instawarp, cloaking and blockade runners. No need to repeat them. These are however defensive options, and not representative of the cost/risk/effort of a scanning ship itself.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#335 - 2017-02-28 10:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The point is that this very valuable data, is too easily acquired, at insufficient reciprocate cost/risk/effort.

It must be an incredibly boring job to sit idle at gates and station undocks... repeatedly pinging ships with cargo and ship scans for that "diamond in the rough". Not to mention that Blockade Runners are immune to cargo scans. By the time you factor in lock and scan times, the 30-second window on undocks and safe docking and undocking bookmarks - I wouldn't necessarily say this information is easily or accurately acquired.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Salvos Rhoska
#336 - 2017-02-28 10:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The point is that this very valuable data, is too easily acquired, at insufficient reciprocate cost/risk/effort.

It must be an incredibly boring job to sit idle at gates and station undocks... repeatedly pinging ships with cargo and ship scans for that "diamond in the rough". Not to mention that Blockade Runners are immune to cargo scans.


Yes.
Yet as many others have pointed out, its centrally necessary inorder to inform profitable suicide ganking.

Boredom could be considered a cost/effort, but its subjective.
Many consider mining boring, whereas.many dont.

Edit: After you edited your post.
-The accuracy and completenèss of a scan is an interesting issue, and one which could be favorably adjusted to compensate for more cost/effort/risk in acquiring that data. Ive never liked that the scans are incomplete, and would not be sorry to see that changed.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#337 - 2017-02-28 10:17:36 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


You argue as "we". This is telling and significant.
It implicates you as biased and arguing for a specific "we", and its interests.


Feel free to look at the last time I ganked.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

If you want important fit/data on a potential target, that should incur reciprocal cost/risk.


It does. The can block your scan, stop you from locking in the first place or gank you.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You dont need fit/cargo data to suicide gank


You do if you want to turn a profit, AKA piracy.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You are again conflating unrelated mechanics.

I repeat again, that the purpose and function of a passive targeter, is to obtain a target lock without detection.
Nothing more, nothing less.


No, its to allow you to lock a target for 6 seconds with them knowing. Its right there in the mods description.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#338 - 2017-02-28 10:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Edit: After you edited your post.
-The accuracy and completeness of a scan is an interesting issue, and one which could be favorably adjusted to compensate for more cost/effort/risk in acquiring that data.

Sorry, I was stil editing my post when you replied... I'm just saying that it's next-to-impossible to do anything against ships with insta-undock bookmarks since they have a 30-second invulnerability window. By the time you've locked them to make a scan they're already well into warp. The same applies to ships with Covert Ops cloaks or extremely fast align times - you either roll the dice if you get lucky locking them or watch them warp off.

As to how to avoid getting ganked the simplest solution is also the cheapest: ensure you have a buffer fit that primarily utilizes T2 modules and minimize the number of Faction or Deadspace modules. If there's no profit in it there's no reason to come after you.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Salvos Rhoska
#339 - 2017-02-28 10:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1:

1) I hesitate to call suicide ganking, piracy. Its more akin to terrorism, where it not for the profit element. Regardless of that, yes, if you want that data, there should be reciprocal cost/risk/effort, as I outlined in my post above.

2) Yes, you get an undetected lock on the target. That does not contradict what I said.

3) Arguing as "we" is dishonest. Your posts and views are your own, no-one elses.

4) The defensive measures a target can take to protect their data, are not costs/risk/effort to the scanner.
They are cost/effort/risk taken by the target.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#340 - 2017-02-28 10:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
[Snip.


Entirely accurate, and no argument from me on any of it.

I was addressing the potential to make scans not have a random, limited result, as a means to favorably compensate for increasing cost/effort/risk of scanning to where it matches the value of that data.

Ive never liked that scans are RNG based, and incomplete.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent