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Pirate Battleships & Absurd Ganker Arguments

First post
Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#341 - 2017-02-28 10:36:09 UTC
Let's go at this from another angle... Say you were completely safe from criminal activity in 1.0 systems. There are a limited number of L4 agents and belts in 1.0 systems - and these have a significantly lower payout compared to 0.5 or 0.6 systems. How many players would opt for the current "risk" entailed by operating outside of 1.0 systems?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#342 - 2017-02-28 10:39:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:

You have a choice between tank and yield. Each option comes with different play styles and associated risks. Choose whichever best suits you.

Mining barges do not have a choice the way other ships.do however. They have very limited slots and insanely low pg & cpu. Most of your choice is purely dependant on the hull.
Compare this to.combat ships where you get the option to glass cannon, balanced or brick tank all on the same hull. And you can speed tank, fit Ewart etc as well.

Suffice to say the general design philosophy of industry type ships has flaws.


Mining barges are horrible. Shoehorned into roles, very little to zero ability to custom fit to your wants and needs and horribly imbalanced with each other and the wider ship lineups.
Salvos Rhoska
#343 - 2017-02-28 10:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Let's go at this from another angle... Say you were completely safe from criminal activity in 1.0 systems. There are a limited number of L4 agents and belts in 1.0 systems - and these have a significantly lower payout compared to 0.5 or 0.6 systems. How many players would opt for the current "risk" entailed by operating outside of 1.0 systems?


I cant answer that with any degree of certainty on the part of other players.

I myself would for sure aim to head to the more profitable, but less secure systems, and take precautions to mitigate my risk there.

Which would you choose?

Clearly players with criminal intent would also be systemically shoehorned out of 1.0 systems, thus increasing their proliferation in lower sec systems, and commensurate risk to other players there

PS: Complete safety in 1.0 is an abomination, and must never happen.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#344 - 2017-02-28 10:54:33 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


1) I hesitate to call suicide ganking, piracy.


They are blowing you up to get your cargo. Its is the only way to get the cargo in highsec and the shipping lanes are all in highsec so that is where the pirates are.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

2) Yes, you get an undetected lock on the target. That does not contradict what I said.
You think its just for locking the target, its not. That six seconds is to cover the scan and unclocking so they don't know you are looking. Going suspect means you light up in the overview and on the hud so fitting the passive targeter is entirely pointless.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

3) Arguing as "we" is dishonest. Your posts and views are your own, no-one elses.


Mechanics changes impacts everyone, hence the we.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

4) The defensive measures a target can take to protect their data, are not costs/risk/effort to the scanner.
They are cost/effort/risk taken by the target.


Of course they are risks and costs to the scanner. Failing to get a scan has a cost of missing a potential target which is undoubtedly a risk the scanner faces every time they try to get a scan. As pointled out many times to you we alreay have highly effective counters to scanning.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#345 - 2017-02-28 10:55:10 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Which would you choose?

I've already made my choice and come to terms with local hazards and obstacles.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Salvos Rhoska
#346 - 2017-02-28 11:01:29 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Which would you choose?

I've already made my choice and come to terms with local hazards and obstacles.


You presented a hypothetical situation, and asked how players would react.
I responded how I would react.

Its not unreasonable for me to ask you which you would choose in your own hypothetical situation.
I could also ask you how many players you would think would choose 1.0, as you asked me.

Where you surprised by my answer?
Surely you should know my position better than that by now.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#347 - 2017-02-28 11:06:06 UTC
Salvos, I'm writing you off in this thread. You're either trolling everyone or you steadfastly believe in everything you're saying (I'm not sure which is worse). Many (many) players have made good counterarguments but you seem to remain unconvinced. So be it. I'm not going to add anything further to a thread which is going absolutely nowhere.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Salvos Rhoska
#348 - 2017-02-28 11:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
Snip

1) Not all suicide ganking is motivated by profit. Furthermore, suicide ganking involves, well, suicide. Its difficult to compare that to conventional definitions of piracy, because IRL, where these terms are derived from, its not possible to survive your own suicide.

IRL commiting crimes and subsequently committing suicide, either by your own hand or by cop, is to avoid consequences of those crimes. Nor can you enjoy the profits from such a crime and suicide, cos you are, well, dead.

Pirates dont commit suicide after capturing a vessel and/or its goods.

As to HS being where the trade lanes are, this is only partially true. The trade lanes extend through LS to the deepest reaches of NS.

2) Passive targeters enable an undetected lock. Nothing more, nothing less.
That scanning the ship does not break that undetected status, does not change what passive targeters do.

3) Then I can argue as "we", just as much as you.
But I wont, because its a fallacy.

4) You are confusing and conflating effort/risk/cost taken by someone else, with effort/cost/risk you take yourself.
Salvos Rhoska
#349 - 2017-02-28 11:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Salvos, I'm writing you off in this thread. You're either trolling everyone or you steadfastly believe in everything you're saying (I'm not sure which is worse). Many (many) players have made good counterarguments but you seem to remain unconvinced. So be it. I'm not going to add anything further to a thread which is going absolutely nowhere.


Where the hell did this come from now?

I answered your hypothetical question.

Was my answer "wrong"? If so, how?

Then I asked you to answer your own hypothetical, and this is how you respond?

Wtf, man.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2017-02-28 11:49:07 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Salvos, I'm writing you off in this thread. You're either trolling everyone or you steadfastly believe in everything you're saying (I'm not sure which is worse). Many (many) players have made good counterarguments but you seem to remain unconvinced. So be it. I'm not going to add anything further to a thread which is going absolutely nowhere.

...
Wtf, man.

That was exactly my reaction Shocked
Totally unexpected
Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Salvos Rhoska
#351 - 2017-02-28 12:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
March rabbit wrote:

That was exactly my reaction Shocked
Totally unexpected
Lol

He usually posts good stuff and cuts to the chase..
Must be having a bad day or something.

Did he really think I would respond to stay in a hypothetical 100% safe 1.0 for less profits?
Did he really think I would even want that to be possible?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#352 - 2017-02-28 12:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

1) Not all suicide ganking is motivated by profit.
Just most of them.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Furthermore, suicide ganking involves, well, suicide. Its difficult to compare that to conventional definitions of piracy, because IRL, where these terms are derived from, its not possible to survive your own suicide.


How else can you get the cargo out of their ship and into your hands? If you don't want pirates to be forced to suicide gank then you have to get rid of concord.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

IRL


This is not real life, we are immortal demi-gods flying around in spaceships.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

As to HS being where the trade lanes are, this is only partially true. The trade lanes extend through LS to the deepest reaches of NS.


No they don't. Outside of highsec cargo is transported via jump freighters that jump from citadel to citadel in perfect safety.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

2) Passive targeters enable an undetected lock. Nothing more, nothing less.
That scanning the ship does not break that undetected status, does not change what passive targeters do.


You lock the target in one server tick, a passive targeter is entirely pointless when the second server tick you start flashing yellow.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#353 - 2017-02-28 12:40:34 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Snip

Risk/reward is a metric the developer balances NPC drop rates with and not player interaction. The risk/reward in player interactions is self balancing since people will adopt to others behaviour. The whole basis of your argumentation is flawed.
Amojin
Doomheim
#354 - 2017-02-28 16:02:02 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

That scanning the ship does not break that undetected status, does not change what passive targeters do.


This is definitely a problem. Here, let me shoot your very advanced SPACECRAFT with a coherent energy beam. You didn't notice that? Good, good.
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#355 - 2017-02-28 16:55:47 UTC
Lucas Lucias wrote:
The OP made a very good point. Hisec is a wasteland because CCP removed the value of being in hisec and now all it really is, is a number of market hubs through some heavily camped pipes.

Aaron you should give up on your hisec idea, there are not enough people interested in doing that, all the new players head straight to null sec with groups like Brave or Pandemic Horde.


You still don't get it Drac. This is my game doing something unconventional is what I enjoy. I find you a very negative player and I am in no way interested in your opinion.

Hope you and the family are well, take care.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie

Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#356 - 2017-02-28 17:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Lucias
Aaron wrote:
Lucas Lucias wrote:
The OP made a very good point. Hisec is a wasteland because CCP removed the value of being in hisec and now all it really is, is a number of market hubs through some heavily camped pipes.

Aaron you should give up on your hisec idea, there are not enough people interested in doing that, all the new players head straight to null sec with groups like Brave or Pandemic Horde.


You still don't get it Drac. This is my game doing something unconventional is what I enjoy. I find you a very negative player and I am in no way interested in your opinion.

Hope you and the family are well, take care.


Family is great, wife is doing great with the job, daughter is going to do a masters degree and son is off to Japan for a year in September.

You do have abilities, so perhaps you could do something, but there is not much real raw material in hisec to work with, in that way it is pretty much like Stain.

Oh and by the way, I am an optimistic pessimist..., in fact I am rather optimistic about the current alliance I joined, great bunch of lads under a very very good FC and who are very strong in their main TZ which I can work within, in fact I rather enjoyed the fun just before DT, but sadly did not get on any PL kills as they ran away too fast for the ship I was in Cry My error poor ship choice...

EDIT: It was funny because the FC called for kitchen sink and he got 30 people to kill less then ten, was great stuff.
Amojin
Doomheim
#357 - 2017-02-28 18:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Lucas Lucias wrote:

Family is great, wife is doing great with the job, daughter is going to do a masters degree and son is off to Japan for a year in September.


Remind him to really pay attention, and get out, away from other Americans, or Australians, or whatever nationality you guys are. Japan is an absolutely wonderful place, and the Japanese are wonderful people. I wasted half of my time in Japan, and I wish I had that year back, while being thankful for the year I did have. Make sure to visit some of the monasteries - they're all over the place.

The Buddhist ones will let you stay there, even if you're not a Buddhist, so long as you do your assigned cleaning and don't interfere. A lot of them speak English. Remind him to not let this experience just pass by. He can learn a lot, and it's even fun.
Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#358 - 2017-02-28 18:46:23 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lucas Lucias wrote:

Family is great, wife is doing great with the job, daughter is going to do a masters degree and son is off to Japan for a year in September.


Remind her to really pay attention, and get out, away from other Americans, or Australians, or whatever nationality you guys are. Japan is an absolutely wonderful place, and the Japanese are wonderful people. I wasted half of my time in Japan, and I wish I had that year back, while being thankful for the year I did have. Make sure to visit some of the monasteries - they're all over the place.

The Buddhist ones will let you stay there, even if you're not a Buddhist, so long as you do your assigned cleaning and don't interfere. A lot of them speak English. Remind her to not let this experience just pass by. She can learn a lot, and it's even fun.


It is my son, and yeah he will make the most of it as he will be staying with a family and he has ticked the box that English is not necessary. He is very into Japanese culture.

In terms of Eve, you should look for an active null sec alliance that does most of their stuff in your TZ, don't say what your TZ is on here as it makes it easier for people to go after you, my TZ is very wide as I retired early. Big smile Do it on your terms, go in light and build up there and leave your stuff in hisec. I once went to Cobalt Edge in a T3C and came back in a carrier with a ship maintenance bay stuffed full of ships and a ton of modules and a fat wallet and came back to all the stuff I left in hisec too boot.

I have a toon that I can drop out of the alliance and run missions with if I want all kitted up with a Paladin. That is how to win at Eve, give yourself options so people can not trap you.
Amojin
Doomheim
#359 - 2017-02-28 18:54:55 UTC
Lucas Lucias wrote:

It is my son, and yeah he will make the most of it as he will be staying with a family and he has ticked the box that English is not necessary. He is very into Japanese culture.


Yeah, I corrected that snafu, as you can see on a reload. :P

As far as EVE goes, in all likelihood, I'm going alpha in about 24 days. Back to the Vexor Navy Issue. I'm just not impressed with EVE, to tell you the honest truth. Warcraft is about as close to my original MUSH background as I can find. I've given EVE a fair shot, and, well?

Building, for the mere sake of exploding it later, is not my cup of tea. Having one sided wars, where people can pay for a win? Is not my cup of tea. It's like in a Warcraft Battleground, if you're mad at me, and you will be, since I play a healer, you call in a whole new team to stop our graveyard camping of you.

Sorry, not gonna happen. If I see you in Arathi Basin, I expect you to be 15:15.

Not 15:15, and oh ****, let's call in a new team, 15:30. Not gonna happen. You know damned well how dangerous we healers are, and you do, to your credit, try to stop us. We are force multipliers. My survival is your survival. On any team not filled with scrubs, I get a peel now and then. Too bad for you.

EVE? You don't need to really WORK. You can BUY it.
Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#360 - 2017-02-28 19:03:52 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lucas Lucias wrote:

It is my son, and yeah he will make the most of it as he will be staying with a family and he has ticked the box that English is not necessary. He is very into Japanese culture.


Yeah, I corrected that snafu, as you can see on a reload. :P

As far as EVE goes, in all likelihood, I'm going alpha in about 24 days. Back to the Vexor Navy Issue. I'm just not impressed with EVE, to tell you the honest truth. Warcraft is about as close to my original MUSH background as I can find. I've given EVE a fair shot, and, well?

Building, for the mere sake of exploding it later, is not my cup of tea. Having one sided wars, where people can pay for a win? Is not my cup of tea. It's like in a Warcraft Battleground, if you're mad at me, and you will be, since I play a healer, you call in a whole new team to stop our graveyard camping of you.

Sorry, not gonna happen. If I see you in Arathi Basin, I expect you to be 15:15.

Not 15:15, and oh ****, let's call in a new team, 15:30. Not gonna happen. You know damned well how dangerous we healers are, and you do, to your credit, try to stop us. We are force multipliers. My survival is your survival. On any team not filled with scrubs, I get a peel now and then. Too bad for you.

EVE? You don't need to really WORK. You can BUY it.


I would not be mad at you, as far as I am concerned there is no right way to play Eve no matter what people in this game try to say, you play it to rock your own boat and that is fine. You have perfectly valid reasons for not staying too, thanks for giving it a try and I wish you all the best.