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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

First post First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#521 - 2017-02-27 13:59:25 UTC
Grognard Commissar wrote:
I think you are severely underestimating the min/max of miners...


I made no statements one way or the other about proportions or anything of the sort, and neither has Fozzie. Some people use fleets of Skiffs instead of Hulks. Some people will always choose lower risk over higher risk and higher reward.

Grognard Commissar wrote:
actually, they could fix the mineral distribution, making it so that you can actually use all the minerals you mine.


Wouldn't actually help if the total amount mined is vastly exceeding the amount being consumed. Note that the price of Mex has started falling as well in the last month, over about the same time Excavator Drones shot up in price. If bottlenecks were the only issue then we'd be seeing a spike in the price of those minerals matching the drop in the others. Instead we're seeing drops across the board.

Mephiztopheleze wrote:
I would very much like to see your math on how a Rorqual will mine 'several times what a Hulk does' after these proposed changes.

My own math seems to indicate anything from about a ~30-40% hit to current yield up to potentially around a ~75% hit. It will all come down to when you finish your Industrial Core cycle and how far away the next asteroid is. The reduced cycle time means that the drones will spend more time travelling. If you have *just* cycled back into siege when the 'roid depletes, your drones will have a significant travel time to the next rock for the whole five minute cycle, which will significantly reduce your effective yield over time.

We all know that paper-DPS figures can be extremely misleading when applied to actual combat scenarios. The same applies to paper mining yield figures when Drone Travel Time is a rather major factor (have you seen how slowly those things move?).

In any event, this is a case of CCP going too far, too fast. I've yet to hear any even vaguely economically rational argument from Fozzie or yourself as to WHY Rorqual mining yield is so much of a problem that it needs to be whacked with the Nerfhammer Of Thor.


First off, all that stuff about 'roids depleting and cycling down is already true today, so you can't try to find some math to factor that in and then say that's part of the current nerfs.

As to how to deal with it, run a rock scanner and keep track of how much ore is left in your rocks. If you're about to run one out it might be worthwhile to either leave it or time your move around it depleting. In fact with the yield nerfs you'd actually spend less time moving because you need to spend more time on each rock, making this less of a factor in yield not more.

Ideal yield on a Rorqual post-changes is going to be something like 3-3 1/2 T2 Hulks, that still makes it by far the best ship to have in a belt if you can afford one. The big limiting factor on that right now is the price of the drones, but if demand drops then the price will drop as well, making the ship more affordable for those still using it.

As for 'economically rational arguments' take a look at the price of minerals. The market is flooding, prices are dropping, and supply is massively outpacing demand at the moment, despite the massive and in-demand mineral sinks we have in the form of Citadels. There's also the fact that the Rorqual isn't even being used to boost much these days, it's only being used as a mining ship despite being a fantastic booster. On top of that we have anectdotal evidence that it's pulling people who would never have thought about mining previously into doing so, purely because of how good the Rorqual is.

That's both economics and game balance covered. If you don't find those 'rational' then "c'est la vie".

Mephiztopheleze wrote:
actually, the cycle reduction is a NERF to all drone mining ships as drones will now spend more time travelling and less time mining. it's a bigger nerf to the Rorq than it is to the Orca simply because the Orca doesn't lock itself in place for five minutes at a time.


Actually you're both wrong, because if you'll note the only thing that's changing is the cycle-time on the *Excavator* drones, not on mining drones overall.
Cade Windstalker
#522 - 2017-02-27 14:22:13 UTC
Archeos wrote:
No one seems to be complaining about the mineral market crash and it won't bother anyone if it goes down a bit futher, it will happen with or without the nerf. The only thing that will change is that now people who want to mine will have to get additional plexed accounts to field more rorquals to make up for the lost money.


This is flatly incorrect, there are people expressing something along the lines of "Thank **** finally!" in this very thread because of exactly this.

Also this claim is just farcical on the whole. Just because you haven't heard of anyone complaining doesn't mean it's not happening, and it would be a bit ridiculous if people weren't since overall mining income has dropped between 10 and 25% over the last month or two, depending on where you're mining and what.

Archeos wrote:
As for CCP being able to make the mineral market healthy and buff miner income - yes they can do it easily.
And it has already been suggested in this thread. Some of the better examples include :

1) Stopping ratts drop ammunition, that means that t1 ammo would only come from industrialists. And while at it, making the ammunition require more minerals to produce, would create a very nice sinkhole for the minerals, as ammunition is the most common used and discarded thing in eve, and the rise in price wouldn't hurt even a 1 day old newbee.

2) Making the pirate supers balanced so that their price wouldnt come from the blueprint, and their final cost wouldn't be that of a titan but maybe 2,5 x a normal super carrier. And if the increase in price would come from the price of minerals, it would be a very nice sinkhole.

3) Balancing the asteroid yield in null so that null miners wouldn't have to export the abundant pyrite and tritanium to high sec and ruin the highsec markets.

4) Rising the mineral cost of citadels, especially the astrahaus, its dirt cheap right now.

5) They can introduce mineral costs to literally any item that gets used a lot, like nanite paste or boost scripts, the possibilities are endless.

But the real point is that noone really is complaing about the mineral prices, the market will adapt. And cheap ships are a nice thing to have. The problem is that CCP is trying to make the rorqual a ship that will only appear as a booster, and everyone is trying to explain that untill it has the best yield out of all the mining ships all the die hard miners will still use them. This nerf wont change a thing for the 10-20 rorqual boxers.



  1. This idea is just ridiculous. The amount of T1 ammo dropped by rats, let alone the amount actually picked up and sold, is an absolutely tiny fraction of all the T1 ammo used in the game. If you think the price of T1 ammo is low because of pirate drops then I've got some bad news, it's low because of player production and competition and the willingness of new or uneducated miners to sell product for less than the cost of minerals.
  2. This is also kind of ridiculous. First off, the benefits of pirate capitals over their standard counterparts are marginal. On top of that 2.5 times the mineral cost of a standard Super is slightly less than the mineral cost of a Titan. The reason these things cost so much isn't even the Blueprint cost so much as the general scarcity and lack of demand, so anyone making one can basically set their own price on the things. They're already stupidly expensive in minerals, about 1.5 times a normal Super. Also the Blueprint cost is set purely by player supply and demand, they're not hard to get they're in the Serpentis Pirate LP store, and even at 10,000 ISK per LP the BP would still only cost about 5 Billion.
  3. Doesn't work if demand doesn't meet or exceed supply, and that only works if enough stuff is getting destroyed, which it clearly isn't. See: current dip in Mex prices despite its bottleneck status.
  4. The Astrahus isn't supposed to be super super expensive, and it's fairly easy to make, which is the reason it's sitting at about cost of production. This would just hurt the ability of people to own Citadels, not actually fix the problem.
  5. Your suggestions here only amount to an admission that the yield of the Rorqual at present is broken. If CCP has to introduce new mineral sinks to balance out a new ship then it's pretty clearly broken the economy, and you would *still* be screwing over anyone who mines without a Rorqual because the relative value of what they mine would still be crap because so much of the mineral market would be taken up by Rorquals and things would still be relatively more expensive because you've just increased the amount of minerals they require.


The Rorqual will see use as a mining ship as long as it mines remotely more than a Hulk, which it still will, comfortably, after these changes.

Your entire argument, that no one is complaining, is literally refuted by people in this thread. Never mind this one over in GD and a few others that we've seen over the last few months.

If your next response is "but that's not enough people!" then I'm just going to point out that you're moving the goalposts after being proven wrong and that you just want your mineral faucet, you don't actually care if people are complaining or not.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#523 - 2017-02-27 19:32:56 UTC
When the 'Excavator' ore mining drones cost 700M instead of 1,7B a piece, this change will make sense Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#524 - 2017-02-27 20:39:50 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Right, so this was just a cash grab that CCP pulled to get players interested in a ship only to run it back into uselessness 2 months later after players had invested heavily in the new ship.

All you had to say is that you guys are finding new and interesting ways to milk your player base for cash, and they put you at the helm of it all.



Well, I guess that answers the question about whether anyone in PL bought PLEX to buy Rorquals... Lol

Seriously, how has someone who's played as long as the average PL player not figured out that if something looks too good it probably is and is going to get nerfed...


I haven't mined since the day they were released, while you're over here leaping to conclusions.


To think I'm some rare fringe case where people bought plex proves you have a tiny zika ravaged mind.


LOTS of people injected rorquals, you can look at the injector market to see that as it calmed down after the rorqual release.


And do you think any of those people would have purchased them if the end result would have been anything near a 10 billion isk version of 2 hulks?

No, so its a simple case of bait and switch, a **** play by CCP and if you think they didn't set out to gouge you like that you're nuts, this is classic CCP digging for pennies in the couch.

Its a trash way to treat your player base after all these years.

EDIT: And as far as 'looks to good to be true' mining still made less than any other profession. Super ratting can net you 400+/hr and yet they go after mining.


CCP Games being classy as usual when it comes to selling skill training "time", it's their "time" and your dime Roll

http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/15/eve-player-uses-28000-of-skill-injectors-to-create-max-character/

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#525 - 2017-02-27 20:44:22 UTC
Stud Duficious wrote:
HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD LEAVE THE GAME OVER THIS?



Not just because of this..

But because of a build up of stuff relating to industry and solo play..

I have just biomassed all the characters on 2 of my 4 accounts, I've tried to hang on hoping for something positive, but while ever Fozzie is here it's doubtful if this'll ever happen.

I love the game and I'm going to fanfest, but, like others, I'm now struggling to find a way forward, or a good reason to log on anymore...

I'll re-evaluate the remaining 2 accounts going forward after fanfest.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Cade Windstalker
#526 - 2017-02-27 21:13:50 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
When the 'Excavator' ore mining drones cost 700M instead of 1,7B a piece, this change will make sense Cool


I'd say give it about 3-6 months and we'll be about there or even lower.

Right now the cost to make one of these things is sitting around 1.1b in materials, but just looking at the four most expensive bits of this most of that cost is driven by demand for the drones themselves. As that demand drops off after these changes (which already seems to be happening) and supply catches up we'll probably see cost of production on these things come down to around 5-600m or so, which would be about what you'd get if the four most expensive parts all drop in price by about half.

Drago Shouna wrote:
Stud Duficious wrote:
HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD LEAVE THE GAME OVER THIS?



Not just because of this..

But because of a build up of stuff relating to industry and solo play..

I have just biomassed all the characters on 2 of my 4 accounts, I've tried to hang on hoping for something positive, but while ever Fozzie is here it's doubtful if this'll ever happen.

I love the game and I'm going to fanfest, but, like others, I'm now struggling to find a way forward, or a good reason to log on anymore...

I'll re-evaluate the remaining 2 accounts going forward after fanfest.


.... why?

Seriously, why is an adjustment to a change that isn't even three months old at this point making you consider un-subbing or biomassing your characters or whatever?

I'm legitimately curious why a balance change in a game, and to something that hasn't even been around that long, has you posting like someone shot your dog.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#527 - 2017-02-27 21:28:28 UTC
Cade, seriously get off you're damned horse. You do this **** in every thread and it triggers me every time. Go take a break and get your nose out of CCP's ass for a moment so those who are *directly* involved in mining can give their opinion on how to fix the addressed issues rather than praise your almighty CCP who can do no wrong.

*breathes*

Okay rant aside.

PANIC
-Simply disable use of all external modules for the duration. The player has chosen to take themselves out of the fight by making themselves immune to it. The reasoning here should be simple enough to understand.
-Possibly act as a cyno when activated and be given a LO requirement for activation (to get around the above. Alternatively, no cyno, get a friend to light that cyno).

Industrial core should either:
1) Have a reduced cycle time/HW usage to compensate for higher movement requirements from increased belt size
2) Act as NSA and not lock you in place. In return it loses it's current defensive and offensive bonuses.

I'm partial to #2 as this bring's it's risk more in line to that of a carrier/super with equivalent rewards.


Excavators should not have their yeild reduced at all from the current. What you should do is look at anomaly spawn times within 0.0 space as well as re-look at mineral balance within the belts to reduce the desire to export excess to market hubs like Jita.
Stud Duficious
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#528 - 2017-02-27 22:28:15 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
When the 'Excavator' ore mining drones cost 700M instead of 1,7B a piece, this change will make sense Cool


I'd say give it about 3-6 months and we'll be about there or even lower.

Right now the cost to make one of these things is sitting around 1.1b in materials, but just looking at the four most expensive bits of this most of that cost is driven by demand for the drones themselves. As that demand drops off after these changes (which already seems to be happening) and supply catches up we'll probably see cost of production on these things come down to around 5-600m or so, which would be about what you'd get if the four most expensive parts all drop in price by about half.

Drago Shouna wrote:
Stud Duficious wrote:
HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD LEAVE THE GAME OVER THIS?



Not just because of this..

But because of a build up of stuff relating to industry and solo play..

I have just biomassed all the characters on 2 of my 4 accounts, I've tried to hang on hoping for something positive, but while ever Fozzie is here it's doubtful if this'll ever happen.

I love the game and I'm going to fanfest, but, like others, I'm now struggling to find a way forward, or a good reason to log on anymore...

I'll re-evaluate the remaining 2 accounts going forward after fanfest.


.... why?

Seriously, why is an adjustment to a change that isn't even three months old at this point making you consider un-subbing or biomassing your characters or whatever?

I'm legitimately curious why a balance change in a game, and to something that hasn't even been around that long, has you posting like someone shot your dog.


I'm one of those that is considering quitting. The reason is because of "Bait and Switch" that CCP is doing with this change. Just a few months ago they nerved the coequals and to do it again to this magnitude this soon isn't about balancing the game, it's about getting people to invest and change the mechanics so large amounts of isk and assets are down the drain. Me for example spent 100 bil on injectors to get many rorqual toons only to be turned into very expensive hulks. I'm not the only one that did this. I know many others who spent a lot of isk to get multiple toons that are rorqual pilots. I feel the right thing for CCP to do is to reimburse everyone who spent isk on injectors and the skill points to fly the rorquals or at the very least make an announcement that this change will happen 6 months to a year from now so that people who invested a great amount of isk can make it back....
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#529 - 2017-02-27 22:46:25 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
When the 'Excavator' ore mining drones cost 700M instead of 1,7B a piece, this change will make sense Cool


I'd say give it about 3-6 months and we'll be about there or even lower.

Right now the cost to make one of these things is sitting around 1.1b in materials, but just looking at the four most expensive bits of this most of that cost is driven by demand for the drones themselves. As that demand drops off after these changes (which already seems to be happening) and supply catches up we'll probably see cost of production on these things come down to around 5-600m or so, which would be about what you'd get if the four most expensive parts all drop in price by about half.

Drago Shouna wrote:
Stud Duficious wrote:
HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD LEAVE THE GAME OVER THIS?



Not just because of this..

But because of a build up of stuff relating to industry and solo play..

I have just biomassed all the characters on 2 of my 4 accounts, I've tried to hang on hoping for something positive, but while ever Fozzie is here it's doubtful if this'll ever happen.

I love the game and I'm going to fanfest, but, like others, I'm now struggling to find a way forward, or a good reason to log on anymore...

I'll re-evaluate the remaining 2 accounts going forward after fanfest.


.... why?

Seriously, why is an adjustment to a change that isn't even three months old at this point making you consider un-subbing or biomassing your characters or whatever?

I'm legitimately curious why a balance change in a game, and to something that hasn't even been around that long, has you posting like someone shot your dog.


Read my first line.

Read my second line, then think.

Go check my posts going back a year or 18 months about the small guys getting shafted all the time.

Unlike a lot of guys I was already trained into a Rorqual well before these changes and drones hit, but I didn't bother with the new drones...unlike some.

These guys are now being deliberately shafted by CCP and Fozzie in a way indicative of how large swathes of the player base have been treated over about the last 2/12 to 3 years.

Personally I'm sick of waiting to be blindside by the next nerf bat....

BTW..enough of the CCP fanboi stance, it's getting sickening and boring to read now.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
#530 - 2017-02-28 00:10:04 UTC
Archeos wrote:
The change to mining drones mine time from 90sec to 60sec is a huge boost for the orca.


Highlighting pretty much what is wrong with much of this thread.


  • All mining drones except Excavator Drones have a standard 60sec cycle
  • Orca's cannot field Executor Drones.



Not to mention that why is only Null or High-Sec in the picture? No love to buff low-sec yields or wormholes?

And who knew what null-sec can re-define carrying coal to Newcastle? Importing Trit and Pyrite to hi-sec?
Stud Duficious
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#531 - 2017-02-28 01:28:24 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
When the 'Excavator' ore mining drones cost 700M instead of 1,7B a piece, this change will make sense Cool


I'd say give it about 3-6 months and we'll be about there or even lower.

Right now the cost to make one of these things is sitting around 1.1b in materials, but just looking at the four most expensive bits of this most of that cost is driven by demand for the drones themselves. As that demand drops off after these changes (which already seems to be happening) and supply catches up we'll probably see cost of production on these things come down to around 5-600m or so, which would be about what you'd get if the four most expensive parts all drop in price by about half.

Drago Shouna wrote:
Stud Duficious wrote:
HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD LEAVE THE GAME OVER THIS?



Not just because of this..

But because of a build up of stuff relating to industry and solo play..

I have just biomassed all the characters on 2 of my 4 accounts, I've tried to hang on hoping for something positive, but while ever Fozzie is here it's doubtful if this'll ever happen.

I love the game and I'm going to fanfest, but, like others, I'm now struggling to find a way forward, or a good reason to log on anymore...

I'll re-evaluate the remaining 2 accounts going forward after fanfest.


.... why?

Seriously, why is an adjustment to a change that isn't even three months old at this point making you consider un-subbing or biomassing your characters or whatever?

I'm legitimately curious why a balance change in a game, and to something that hasn't even been around that long, has you posting like someone shot your dog.


Read my first line.

Read my second line, then think.

Go check my posts going back a year or 18 months about the small guys getting shafted all the time.

Unlike a lot of guys I was already trained into a Rorqual well before these changes and drones hit, but I didn't bother with the new drones...unlike some.

These guys are now being deliberately shafted by CCP and Fozzie in a way indicative of how large swathes of the player base have been treated over about the last 2/12 to 3 years.

Personally I'm sick of waiting to be blindside by the next nerf bat....

BTW..enough of the CCP fanboi stance, it's getting sickening and boring to read now.


That's exactly it... it seems to much like bait and switch to me. Baited us to go and spend billions on injectors only to nerf it this fast this soon and so much. I mean 2 nerfs in 3 months that took 30% each time... There is so many other ways to fix this than attacking what so many have invested into. Nerf the panic mod... I get it... but nerf once again the amount it can mine. Why would I spend and risk 13 bil on a rorqual mining that can only mine as much as 2 hulks now? This is why I believe that those that invested so much should get reimbursed.
Beaute Suprenate
Zervas Aeronautics
The Bastion
#532 - 2017-02-28 02:27:44 UTC
I have also invested a lot into this new setup (Rorqual / Excavator) and it seems to me that the point of this was to reduce the price of minerals which should reduce the price of caps which should encourage their use in combat which should bring new blood into the cap fight arena. Nerfing the Excavator is directly opposed to that goal. Better think this out. Why do you want to protect the price of minerals? The lower the price, the more that will get used thus helping the price of BPCs which have been low for a long time. BPCs will be more in demand. Im not quitting over this but you are once again screwing me.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#533 - 2017-02-28 02:35:27 UTC
Beaute Suprenate wrote:
I have also invested a lot into this new setup (Rorqual / Excavator) and it seems to me that the point of this was to reduce the price of minerals which should reduce the price of caps which should encourage their use in combat which should bring new blood into the cap fight arena. Nerfing the Excavator is directly opposed to that goal. Better think this out. Why do you want to protect the price of minerals? The lower the price, the more that will get used thus helping the price of BPCs which have been low for a long time. BPCs will be more in demand. Im not quitting over this but you are once again screwing me.


Trying too hard to make a conspiracy out of this.

If the idea was to reduce the cost of caps then why not reduce mineral requirements? Why make a change that reduces mineral worth and everything linked to them across the board?

The **** is wrong with people?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#534 - 2017-02-28 03:05:56 UTC
Beaute Suprenate wrote:
I have also invested a lot into this new setup (Rorqual / Excavator) and it seems to me that the point of this was to reduce the price of minerals which should reduce the price of caps which should encourage their use in combat which should bring new blood into the cap fight arena. Nerfing the Excavator is directly opposed to that goal. Better think this out. Why do you want to protect the price of minerals? The lower the price, the more that will get used thus helping the price of BPCs which have been low for a long time. BPCs will be more in demand. Im not quitting over this but you are once again screwing me.


No, this actually is against new blood, new players earn there first isk from mining most of time.
Also you invested alot? why did you do it? If not for players like you who HAVE TO HAVE IT, excavator price should be 300mil/unit, as planned on before release by devs.
More so, following your logic about capital usage, but by not being one building them, current mineral price drop so much, that loosing premium insured capital is FREE.

As so, in opposition to your logic, about I WANT RED BUTTON EASY MODE, there should be insurance payout removed from nullsec, as why there would be it in first place if there is no Concord, and empire network to run it.
Cade Windstalker
#535 - 2017-02-28 03:21:32 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Okay rant aside.

PANIC
-Simply disable use of all external modules for the duration. The player has chosen to take themselves out of the fight by making themselves immune to it. The reasoning here should be simple enough to understand.
-Possibly act as a cyno when activated and be given a LO requirement for activation (to get around the above. Alternatively, no cyno, get a friend to light that cyno).

Industrial core should either:
1) Have a reduced cycle time/HW usage to compensate for higher movement requirements from increased belt size
2) Act as NSA and not lock you in place. In return it loses it's current defensive and offensive bonuses.

I'm partial to #2 as this bring's it's risk more in line to that of a carrier/super with equivalent rewards.


Excavators should not have their yeild reduced at all from the current. What you should do is look at anomaly spawn times within 0.0 space as well as re-look at mineral balance within the belts to reduce the desire to export excess to market hubs like Jita.


If you have a problem with my views, oh well not my problem. Though for the record I don't think CCP can do no wrong, I just tend to give them a lot more of the benefit of the doubt than most, and I'm often already thinking in the same direction they are. Comes from knowing my game design and knowing the game in general pretty well.

If you have a problem with my arguments then refute them.

If you can't do that then that is also not my problem, though I may take a small amount of enjoyment out of your annoyance and general bitterness.

I would also like to remind you that your experience in the game is by no means universal or globally applicable. Just because you mine does not mean you speak for all miners.

Also assuming that I *don't* mine is a bit funny, given your only apparent evidence for this is my lack of agreement with you.

As to your ideas, the yield needs to drop. The first nerf didn't do it, the second one seems to be. It might could gain back 5% but probably not much more than that. The external modules thing doesn't actually fix the Entosis problem. As Fozzie pointed out, you already can't Entosis and PANIC, it breaks the Entosis, the problem is that you can then use the PANIC as an emergency button to save your Entosis ship.

No reason to mess with cyno requirements or make the PANIC act as a cyno, the person can just light one themselves, simply don't include that on any module restrictions.

Having the Core not lock you in place removes most of the downsides to it, not a fan.

Stud Duficious wrote:
I'm one of those that is considering quitting. The reason is because of "Bait and Switch" that CCP is doing with this change. Just a few months ago they nerved the coequals and to do it again to this magnitude this soon isn't about balancing the game, it's about getting people to invest and change the mechanics so large amounts of isk and assets are down the drain. Me for example spent 100 bil on injectors to get many rorqual toons only to be turned into very expensive hulks. I'm not the only one that did this. I know many others who spent a lot of isk to get multiple toons that are rorqual pilots. I feel the right thing for CCP to do is to reimburse everyone who spent isk on injectors and the skill points to fly the rorquals or at the very least make an announcement that this change will happen 6 months to a year from now so that people who invested a great amount of isk can make it back....


I'll be frank, this is straight tin-foil hat thinking.

There's zero evidence that CCP are trying anything like a bait and switch. If they'd just nerfed it 50% the first time people would have screamed bloody murder, same as they're doing now, but louder.

CCP, rather clearly, over shot with the first iteration of the Rorqual. The first round of nerfs equally clearly failed to halt the slide in mineral prices or produce any significant change in player behavior. CCP, and every other game dev, needs to be free to adjust their design up *or* down, or the game is going to pretty quickly go to ****.

You, and everyone else, who invested large amounts of ISK on this bet made just that, a bet. It's no different from times in the past when people have made market bets on changes CCP have announced and lost big. Either because those changes changed, or because the changes didn't have the effect the speculators expected.

My personal hope is that you and everyone else who got bitten on this will be slower to rush for the next shiny new thing that seems too good to be true, because it probably is and is about to get nerfed.

What CCP certainly can't do is refund you or anyone else. They haven't completely changed the Rorqual, made it worthless, or even made it so you can't earn back your investment, they've just increased the time required for you to do so. If CCP had to refund everyone every time they made a change there would be basically zero investment in this game, because every patch something would be getting refunded. That would *suck*.
Cade Windstalker
#536 - 2017-02-28 03:29:47 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Read my first line.

Read my second line, then think.

Go check my posts going back a year or 18 months about the small guys getting shafted all the time.

Unlike a lot of guys I was already trained into a Rorqual well before these changes and drones hit, but I didn't bother with the new drones...unlike some.

These guys are now being deliberately shafted by CCP and Fozzie in a way indicative of how large swathes of the player base have been treated over about the last 2/12 to 3 years.

Personally I'm sick of waiting to be blindside by the next nerf bat....

BTW..enough of the CCP fanboi stance, it's getting sickening and boring to read now.


Fun fact, I can fly a Rorqual.

I also didn't rush head long at this, and I'm mostly unmoved by the changes because they're not going to affect me much.

Personally my main stake in all this is me looking at the price of minerals and thinking of all the newbies I've known over the years mining to PLEX their account for the first few months, and wondering how many more hours a month they now need to mine to do that.

Anyways, if you didn't go for the drones then I'm really not sure what the issue is. The Boosts are staying the same, and actually getting slightly stronger with the range boost buff, so if you're using a Rorq for boosting it's unaffected.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Beaute Suprenate wrote:
I have also invested a lot into this new setup (Rorqual / Excavator) and it seems to me that the point of this was to reduce the price of minerals which should reduce the price of caps which should encourage their use in combat which should bring new blood into the cap fight arena. Nerfing the Excavator is directly opposed to that goal. Better think this out. Why do you want to protect the price of minerals? The lower the price, the more that will get used thus helping the price of BPCs which have been low for a long time. BPCs will be more in demand. Im not quitting over this but you are once again screwing me.


Trying too hard to make a conspiracy out of this.

If the idea was to reduce the cost of caps then why not reduce mineral requirements? Why make a change that reduces mineral worth and everything linked to them across the board?

The **** is wrong with people?


Yeah, this is about the point I'm at with this whole "bait and switch" nonsense.

If anyone cares to go read the original Rorqual Change thread the massive preponderance of opinion there is that no one will ever put such an expensive ship out in a belt, even with the massive mining yield CCP gave it originally.

There are a few people going "this might be a bit much?" but not many, and almost everyone is going "7b ship, lawl no!". Clearly this was not the majority opinion once the Rorqual hit the live servers Roll

So yeah, not a bait and switch, just a lot of non-miners suddenly going "oh look, mining looks good right about now..."

Seriously, if CCP could see this massive shift coming do you really think their magical foresight would somehow stop short of seeing the rage in this thread? Lol
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2017-02-28 03:51:30 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Seriously, if CCP could see this massive shift coming do you really think their magical foresight would somehow stop short of seeing the rage in this thread? Lol


I seen it coming, pointed it out in many places, yet **** hit a fan.
ultimatefox02
Core Industry.
Blades of Grass
#538 - 2017-02-28 03:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ultimatefox02
Quote:
Seriously, if CCP could see this massive shift coming do you really think their magical foresight would somehow stop short of seeing the rage in this thread? Lol


IS NOT JUST THE RAGE HE SEE , IF THIS **** CONTINUE,he see minus 4 accounts , and you see minus 4 accounts if you dont stop anny stupid idea like that.

CCP you pass some good years before, but now is the END if you put this update online.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#539 - 2017-02-28 04:29:58 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
.... why?

Seriously, why is an adjustment to a change that isn't even three months old at this point making you consider un-subbing or biomassing your characters or whatever?

I'm legitimately curious why a balance change in a game, and to something that hasn't even been around that long, has you posting like someone shot your dog.


It's the sheer speed and scale of these changes that's got so many panties in a knot.

For years, the Rorqual was the unloved apex of the Industrial tree. A great behemoth of a machine that would do nothing other than sit in the safety of a POS shield, providing system wide boosts. I remember one former corpmate who would log in straight after downtime, load up their Rorqual with fuel, start up a standing mining fleet and activate the boosts. That Rorqual sat in that POS shield for MONTHS. This was The First Age of the Rorqual.

Last November, changes were made and all of a sudden, a ship that had been dear to the hearts of many if only in the scale of its disappointment, became a viable ship to actually fly. Rorquals were removed from the safety of the POS shield and thrown into the hurly burly in the belts. The Second Age of the Rorqual had arrived and a golden time it was for those who already had characters capable of flying the beast.

A great many players, myself included saw the Rorquals out in the belts and thought: "sweet, FINALLY I have an actual *reason* to train into this ship". So we trained. Oh dear Lord how we trained a whole suite of skills that we'd never have spent time on otherwise. We invested in the drones, rigs, hull and fittings. We trucked in Heavy Water by the Occator load along with piles of 3200 Cap Booster charges.

We bought into the dream that Fozzie had sold us. It's an expensive dream. It's a dream that requires great risks to fulfill and it's a dream that takes considerable time to fully skill into.

The dreamers came from across New Eden. From deepest nullsec right up to the very borders of HiSec.

Even the fringe dwelling denizens of C1-C4 Anoikis bought into the dream. Trucking in compressed ore by the Miasmos load. Building capital components and setting up capital shipyards specifically to offer up a Rorqual to the grace of Bob when (s)He decides to bless us with an Ore site in our home wormholes.

In January, barely two months after the initial changes, tweaks were made to yield. Wise heads nodded sagely and proclaimed "yeah, well, it was sucking up an insane amount of Ore, kinda had to happen...."

Thus, we entered the Third Age of the Rorqual.

Mining yields were down on The Golden Second Age, but were decent enough that we persisted in following the dreams sold by Fozzie.

Players saw these changes and thought 'meh, it's still a solid mining vessel', so they skilled, they trained, they purchased.

Then in February came the news that Fozzies Dream was undergoing another set of tweaks. Wise heads nodded sagely and proclaimed "indestructible long range low fatigue Jump HICs are a clearly a problem, CCP is right to fix this".

Then we discovered the extent of the changes and we saw that yet another nerf to mining yield was on the cards. The second serious nerf in as many months.

This news has upset the Dreamers, we the foolish followers of Fozzie.

The dream started to fade even while workers toiled away in capital shipyards to build them. Students of Mining Foreman V and Advanced Spaceship Command V suddenly saw their future careers vaporized before their very eyes.

We bought into a dream only to have the dream descend into Dante's Inferno before we could make the first repayment on our shiny new mining toys, and certainly long before many of us have managed to pay out our 'student loans' for training and recover the sunk costs of the ship and drones itself.

There is uncertainty over the exact extent of how these changes will affect total yield. This uncertainty leads to fear, which in turn has led to anger that the changes have come so fast, not giving players a chance to alter their plans in time. Anger that the dream we will realise is not the dream we were sold.

But most of the anger is reserved for Fozzie himself.

Anger that apparently he never considered the repercussions of a low-fatigue, long range jump ship that can pack enough heavy scrams to reliably tackle a supercarrier and then giving it an invulnerability mode.

Anger that Fozzie has decided to change his mind on such short notice, making a lot of players regret some of their recent training and purchasing decisions. Anger that we will be left with vastly expensive assets that are rapidly declining in value while simultaneously being forced to spend more time recouping initial investments.

Most of all, we're angry because Fozzie's own reasoning for making the change is self contradictory. Apparently the Mineral market needs CCP intervention, but the value of Excavator Drones is left to the market. A market that is currently in freefall as legions of min-max EVE nerds get out their calculators and pocket protectors to figure out if the risk:reward of using Hulks outweighs the risk:rewards of using a Rorqual.

Does that clear it up for you?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

jizzah
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#540 - 2017-02-28 10:44:15 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:


It's the sheer speed and scale of these changes that's got so many panties in a knot...

[full quote, to which I'll add a +1]

...Does that clear it up for you?


Pretty much what a lot of us have been trying to say, yet we're getting hit with 'inaccurate calculations' and 'tinfoil-hat' and 'you don't speak for all miners', while seemingly themselves becoming an impromptu spokesperson for a section of the player base. Pretty ironic.

I'm a big fan of changes and tweaks, but have always leaned towards baby steps rather than massive overhauls. If you're going to tweak a ship, then tweak an area, then look to see how the changes have affected the whole, as the law of unintended consequences show massive far reaching overhauls will have massive far reaching implications. 25% is by no means a 'tweak', it's a pretty massive nerf. And I very much doubt that any subtractions to the yield be rebalanced should the changes prove to be wholly counterproductive to the grand scheme of things. Pre-aligned porpoise/orca and exhumer fleets may well replace the 14B killmails that are on a constant stream.

I wonder, just how much of the 'excessive' minerals being mined in nullsec are going towards replacing said ships?

Oh, and for the record I've also been able to fly the rorquals pre-patch. Was a refreshing change being able to actually field it for a change.

Anyway, sorry for ruffling feather there if anyone purports to take umbrage. No offence intended.