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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

First post First post First post
Author
Kagi Anzomi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2017-02-23 17:07:28 UTC
Before the wall of text I'd like to ask for clarification: The -20% range is relative to the bubble size, right? The numbers given seem to be 50% lower than the current focused range, not 20%.

I'm definitely not very enthusiastic about this change. The only time I've seen HICs used in fleets is when there's a chance of catching supercapitals or when the scram range is absolutely necessary. The inability to receive remote reps while doing their job makes HICs very hard to manage in a fleet setting, to the point I see them getting completely replaced by Proteus, Lachesis, or in some cases Orthrus/Barghest.

In a gate camp setting they can be a little oppressive but the inability to receive reps is again a major disadvantage against anything that can fight back. I'll be the first to admit I have camped gates with a Devoter and remote sensor boosters. It's effective and the Devoter can solo many T1 cruisers and below, but this change is not going to fix that. Gate campers will always figure out a setup to point and scram victims as quickly and inescapably as possible, and it being a ship that can receive reps will likely make things even worse. Even before the change I would've used a Proteus instead of a Devoter if I could fly one, just because it's a lot less likely to die, and the extra scan resolution would be a welcome improvement.

So what would HICs actually be used for with only half the scram range? The only uses I can think of are permanently keeping a bubble up for camping in null or a wormhole, in which case an anchorable bubble is probably better, or tackling supercapitals, in which case Rorquals or a Proteus + Guardian fleet would be better.

I see the proposed change as the death of HICs unless they also gain the ability to receive remote assistance like all the other options can.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2017-02-23 17:09:28 UTC
In all honesty, I dont think it will change small-scale PVP much. "Carebears" will only undock and fight when they are sure they can win. Take away HIC, and you take away some of their confidence. Which they either compensate with a couple of carriers, or the whole thing boils down to smack talk. In the end of the day, both sides will still be unsatisfied with the "cancerous" meta, as it has been since forever.

I'm more interested in consequences for fleet fights, which are not so obvious. As HICs will be deemed useless, we can see command destroyers finally shine as they were supposed to. Or maybe not. Also, further nerfs to once a cornerstone of capital fights, and a link between subcaps and caps, the HIC, will help to shift the meta to caps-only. Carrier is a new battleship, as the word goes, and this change only reinforces that. It will be even trickier for CCP to find a place for actual battleships. Or probably they have some trump up the sleeve, who knows. Some Networked Cluster Barrel which makes their signature as small as a frigate.

So what really bothers me is that they are trying to solve minor or non-existing problems, while keeping sheer swathes of gameplay in a fairly poor state.
Adolf Mekansm
Tardigrade
#103 - 2017-02-23 17:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Adolf Mekansm
So now a HIC is absolutly useless as it was before, and it has worst range than a gallente recon for a way more expensive hull...

Why ?


HIC became used, and just used, not overused. It was great ! It makes some pilot didn't able to adapt whine, but it was far away from being overused.

No one use them to takle super nowardays anyway. Without a great scram range these rip have no purpose to exist. Even worst than an Orthrus...
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
#104 - 2017-02-23 17:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomoko Sunji
Kagi Anzomi wrote:
Before the wall of text I'd like to ask for clarification: The -20% range is relative to the bubble size, right? The numbers given seem to be 50% lower than the current focused range, not 20%.


HICs will still point at the same range but will scramble at 20km max.

Kagi Anzomi wrote:
to the point I see them getting completely replaced by Proteus, Lachesis, or in some cases Orthrus/Barghest..


That's because HICs should have never ever been supposed to remplace those ships.

Kagi Anzomi wrote:

So what would HICs actually be used for with only half the scram range?


Bubble fleets, tackle caps / supercaps, prevent caps from jumping though gates, scramble at 20km subcaps.

Kinda like... what it always was supposed to do ?
Fleshgrind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2017-02-23 17:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Fleshgrind
I see no reason for this change. Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion.
Jack Barros
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#106 - 2017-02-23 17:26:46 UTC
Another ship class relegated to the trash heap. Cool.

Of all the balance changes that could possibly be made, THIS was the one you decided to go with?
Trajan Unknown
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#107 - 2017-02-23 17:27:01 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:


Skynet was a complete different thing and it had to be nerfed no question.

HiCs? They are ******* limited in what they can do and when I said "run" I meant you don´t have to commit at all. A HiC has no real power projection over a a grid, let alone system. Fighters were pretty much a "shut the whole system down" thingy. Outside of plexes that means. If you want to commit to a fight with a HiC do it else simply don´t. So please, where is your argument? At least give me a weak one. The "meta needs changing" is no balance argument at all it barely is one for gameplay.
Posts before me mentioned some "hard counters" to HiCs already so there is something.
Running 100mn cruisers because of HiCs sound weird to be honest. Running 100mn cruisers for several reasons sounds legit. They are a pain in the ass to pin down except you have "web superiority" and can apply them in time. Else you can fuc*k*ng run MWDs and commit. After all it´s no different from getting caught in close range cruisers by a nano-gang with ceptor support. Can´t touch the ceptors really, can´t run either. Only thing you can do is die without losing your s*hi*t and that´s fine.


Yes, I know skynet was different, I just said the arguments from the abusers where the same.

My argument is that HiCs are so strong they alone can be in power to shift the meta. They make the gameplay partly stale.

What is the argument for keeping the long range scram?



I stated several points before but ok, let´s make a short list.


- HICs are an essential tool in close to midrange fleet compositions when fighting longer ranged compositions.

- HICs are an essential tool to shut down certain ships/compositions which are able to project pretty well against the common tackler like rapid lights, tracking bonused cruisers and alike.

- HICs allow small fleets to shut down a certain part of the grid against stuff that would kite them all the time. Still possible of course and by no means a hard counter.

- HICs by themself can be countered super easily, they need force multiplier to become really nasty.

- The only thing that HICs shut down pretty much entirely are solo battleship pilots and people who like to fly MWDs on nano ships and run into a gatecamp. Besides that, I don´t see anything that speaks for a HIC nerf and tbh, solo should never ever be a reason to buff/nerf something. It´s nice to fly solo and I personally enjoy it too from time to time but it is no basis for balance at all.

As said before, I hate it too when I run into certain compositions when I fly solo or with a couple friends but that´s ******* EvE. Bubblecamps, frigate blobs with ecm, rapid light missile compositions you name it. There are a lot of things that really grind my gears but do I want to see such things nerfed? No, absolutely not! Not too long ago I was thinking about the whole fleet meta. I dislike the fact that everyone is "anchoring up" and apply dps with a logi wing attached. But it is the most efficient way and people got used to it. Everything else you might wanna try needs a ton more effort, more piloting skills and has more options to screw up. Therefore people don´t do it and I dislike that. But do I want to force people giving up on this fleet meta? Hell no, just because I don´t like it, doesn´t mean it should be enforced. Same for HiCs and all the other things people complain about. Yes, sometimes maybe even the majority of times you fly solo or in a small gang and you get cooked by some blob, camp or whatever and it is not nice to say the least but that´s the game and your choice. You can blob with your friends, take on someone who is not as good as you and enjoy killing him in a solo ship or you can keep complaining about things and ask for nerfs because you want to enforce your gameplay. The latter is just a bad approach on things. To finish things up, people remember the svipul camps in low-sec? Just a ******* svipul on the gate or maybe two of them. They will pretty much instant lock anything that comes through and blap it and you can´t do **** against it except you know beforehand that they are there. It´s super nasyt, it´s hated by a lot of players, including myself. But it´s part of the game and it´s fine to have such things in EvE.
l0rd carlos
Goryn Clade
#108 - 2017-02-23 17:28:22 UTC
Fleshgrind wrote:
Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion.


Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-)

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Jack Barros
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#109 - 2017-02-23 17:29:50 UTC
Also:

CCP Larrikin wrote:

WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS
The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options.


lmao. HICs everywhere! Every small gang has one!
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#110 - 2017-02-23 17:31:24 UTC
Adolf Mekansm wrote:
So now a HIC is absolutly useless as it was before, and it has worst range than a gallente recon for a way more expensive hull...

Why ?


HIC became used, and just used, not overused. It was great ! It makes some pilot didn't able to adapt whine, but it was far away from being overused.

No one use them to takle super nowardays anyway. Without a great scram range these rip have no purpose to exist. Even worst than an Orthrus...


Actually it still scrams at the same range as an Orthrus does. Just the Orthrus can get links to scram further than it. HICs shouldn't replace ships like the Lachesis, Arazu, Keres for scramming. which they did. For the record, I think CCP should remove the scram bonus from the Orthrus and leave just the Disruptor bonus (opposite to Maulus Navy)

HICs are still incredibly tanky, get additional scramblers at no cost to tank by fitting high slots, have a bubble, incredible EHP for their size, can infi-point to 39.4km and stop capitals from jumping or taking gates. I think they'll still have a solid place in eve, they just won't be a 1 ship counter to all that they are right now for defense gangs.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Jack Barros
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#111 - 2017-02-23 17:31:54 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Fleshgrind wrote:
Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion.


Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-)


TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.
l0rd carlos
Goryn Clade
#112 - 2017-02-23 17:38:31 UTC
Jack Barros wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Fleshgrind wrote:
Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion.


Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-)


TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.


On my MWD, I thought that was clear?

Make mwds great again.
Now we just need a medium AC adjustment.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Mizhir
Escalated.
#113 - 2017-02-23 17:38:54 UTC
Jack Barros wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Fleshgrind wrote:
Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion.


Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-)


TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.


*Points at the 100mn AB*

❤️️💛💚💙💜

rhiload Feron-drake
TURN LEFT
HYDRA RELOADED
#114 - 2017-02-23 17:41:01 UTC
Yes.
MerlinWR
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#115 - 2017-02-23 17:42:05 UTC
Quote:
Changes:
Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script
Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus

The new Focused Warp Scrambling Script will have the following ranges (with max skills):
T1: 16km
Meta: 18km
T2: 20km
Faction: 21km


Just remove hics from the game....
Mira Chieve
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#116 - 2017-02-23 17:46:42 UTC
Good change, it makes nano battleships a bit more usable.Which is good.


Also, could the nullsec blobbers please stop blobbing this thread with replies concerning something they have no idea about?
The real counter to kiting - 70km webs - still exists.

Or maybe instead of crying you could - I don´t know - undock a Maulus and damp the kiter?

Oh wait, you can´t group damps - you would actually have to press more than just F1.

CCPls
Romana Erebus
Advanced AFKing
#117 - 2017-02-23 17:50:11 UTC
No people kite because it triggers you because all you press is f1 and are too fat and lazy to learn to kite yourself. Cool



Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again


People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.


People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.

Tung Yoggi
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
#118 - 2017-02-23 17:50:27 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again


People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.


People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.


Let's start by saying that all Eve players are risk averse, to a point. Yes, our virtual belongings can be destroyed or stolen.

While a kiter is risk averse because he has means to dodge death (nanofibers + MWD), the goon is risk averse because he surrounds himself with 15000 other characters and countless blues (~diplomacy~)

Everyone has the right to be a coward. We should all get our coward's tools, for the sake of equality.
Trajan Unknown
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2017-02-23 17:53:27 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Adolf Mekansm wrote:
So now a HIC is absolutly useless as it was before, and it has worst range than a gallente recon for a way more expensive hull...

Why ?


HIC became used, and just used, not overused. It was great ! It makes some pilot didn't able to adapt whine, but it was far away from being overused.

No one use them to takle super nowardays anyway. Without a great scram range these rip have no purpose to exist. Even worst than an Orthrus...


Actually it still scrams at the same range as an Orthrus does. Just the Orthrus can get links to scram further than it. HICs shouldn't replace ships like the Lachesis, Arazu, Keres for scramming. which they did. For the record, I think CCP should remove the scram bonus from the Orthrus and leave just the Disruptor bonus (opposite to Maulus Navy)

HICs are still incredibly tanky, get additional scramblers at no cost to tank by fitting high slots, have a bubble, incredible EHP for their size, can infi-point to 39.4km and stop capitals from jumping or taking gates. I think they'll still have a solid place in eve, they just won't be a 1 ship counter to all that they are right now for defense gangs.




Well and that is pretty narrow minded.

If you can and if it fits your comp, take an Lacheis and an Arazu for control supremacy. Just because a lot of people don´t realise that force multipliers add up way better than adding another "HIC" doesn´t mean the HIC is too strong.
If possible, I take combat recons over HICs any time but sometimes you just need the ridiculous tank a HIC can offer you. Mostly in mid to large fleets. An Arazu wont cut it there where a HIC is a pegleg in small gangs or BLOPs stuff. It doesn´t hinder a lot of people to use a HIC in their small gang stuff but it doesn´t make it great either. Complete different roles for both hulls. And the people who are asking for a nerf simply don´t get that - it seems.

And yes I know I sound like a HIC fanatic but for the record, most of the times I am at the receiving end of the HIC point and actually lost 2 pretty expensive haulers on my alt to "solo HICs" over the last ~2years. Enraging moments but well, that´s EvE eh?

Sonia Lane
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#120 - 2017-02-23 17:54:50 UTC
InSTiiNK Loutte wrote:
After giving the ability to Rorqual to be SuperHictors, and you know retrograte HICs to be **** pointers.

I find the idea absolutely ridiculous.

In my honest opinion, you CCP, better keep proper gamerplay to proper ship types, and the last ship that needs a nerf is a HIC, and the first, is the Rorqual.
So before Nerfing any other ships, nerf rorquals to give them back their natural gameplay, mining.
At the same time, I find this very funny from a Pandemic Legion guy, upgrading Rorquals, and now they don't need HICs anymore, they downgrade them. :)

"My job here is done"

Best Regards,
InSTiiNK Loutte



^ This!