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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

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BoerdeOrk
Family Guys
Sigma Grindset
#381 - 2017-03-10 11:44:32 UTC
Time to buy a Stack of Orthrus and abuse it like F*ck and waiting for a 'Balance'.
Racro Arifistan
Nirmata.
#382 - 2017-03-10 11:48:20 UTC
R.I.P dual web, dual prop phobos. you can no longer **** over the balanced legion and apply blaster dps.

Space Chimp
Karmen Baric
Doomheim
#383 - 2017-03-10 11:48:42 UTC
InSTiiNK Loutte wrote:
After giving the ability to Rorqual to be SuperHictors, and you know retrograte HICs to be **** pointers.

I find the idea absolutely ridiculous.

In my honest opinion, you CCP, better keep proper gamerplay to proper ship types, and the last ship that needs a nerf is a HIC, and the first, is the Rorqual.
So before Nerfing any other ships, nerf rorquals to give them back their natural gameplay, mining.
At the same time, I find this very funny from a Pandemic Legion guy, upgrading Rorquals, and now they don't need HICs anymore, they downgrade them. :)

"My job here is done"

Best Regards,
InSTiiNK Loutte

very much agree with this.


Dodo Veetee wrote:
Thanks for nerfing the counter to kitey fleets.

Maybe you guys can now balance the ******* orthrus and garmur?

yep these need nerfs
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#384 - 2017-03-10 13:38:15 UTC
Kagi Anzomi wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
it is a scram bonused ship requiring very intensive skills, high costs and significant downsides _ like no drone bay.

The Devoter has a drone bay, though for some reason Phobos doesn't.

It's pretty typical for Amarr ships to have a bigger drone bay that Caldari or Minmatar ships.

The Phobos is a Roden Shipyards design, which tend to eschew drones in favor of railguns.

It makes sense from a purely lore-based standpoint, but I've always felt that balancing to satisfy lore instead of actual game mechanics is poor game design.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#385 - 2017-03-10 15:11:26 UTC
this is how you lose subs
Yaosus
From Hisec with Love Holdings
From Hisec with Love Coalition
#386 - 2017-03-10 15:41:14 UTC
way 2 go.. at least leave it at 30 km or something otherwise what's the point

I like to move it move it

NEW - WEBSITES - NEW, Propaganda Videos, Billboard Ads or Video Editing Services
Vytone
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
#387 - 2017-03-10 16:52:56 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Good. RIP HICs. Long live Gallente Recons actually being able to do their job again.


(role bonus for scram range on fiend plzplzplzpzlpzlpzlzplzplzz)





Plzplzplzplzplzplzzplzplzplzplzzplzplzplzplz

In case they didn't hear you,
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#388 - 2017-03-10 17:50:22 UTC
@CCP - So what exactly is the point of this thread? Looking through it 90% of the people are against the change. Yet you're just going forward with it anyway? HICs are fine right now, they don't need tweaking.

@everyone_else -

Everyone seems to think that suddenly once this change goes in you're going to see more Arazu/Lachesis hulls flying around. You won't. They aren't used because they have crap DPS, crap tank, an undersized drone bay, and more importantly I can get an Orthrus for the same price and actually do damage. They will still be used in larger fleets due to long range tackle, and that's about it. Why do I say all this? Because the range at all 5 of a republic fleet scram on a Lachesis is 22.5km. Same as a T2 post change hictor focus point with this new fangled terrible idea of a script.

For those of you that think a HIC can hold down a Titan/Super right now, the answer is yes they can....for about 15-20 seconds. HICs actually need the long range scram to shut down Capital MWDs while staying out of neut range. This would enable you to keep them in the dictor bubbles. If you get within 24km, that is the no-no zone. You will be neuted to high hell, and killed.

Now you may say, ok so use the long range point script and stay out of neut range! A HIC with mwd/ab and focus point can keep up with a MWD super/ittan/carrier/etc. Well yes you can, however you can't maintain a focus point and MWD/AB for long, and ideally you'd like to keep them in the bubbles.

Cade Windstalker
#389 - 2017-03-10 19:59:25 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
@CCP - So what exactly is the point of this thread? Looking through it 90% of the people are against the change. Yet you're just going forward with it anyway? HICs are fine right now, they don't need tweaking.


You're kind of answering your own question here. They're massively more powerful than ships with an actual scram-range focused bonus, and are basically completely overshadowing them.

CCP even flat out stated in the original 'HICs now Scram' thread that they were considering exactly this if the HIC-scram proved to be too powerful, which given its near ubiquitousness at this point has clearly proven to be the case.

Kassimila wrote:
Everyone seems to think that suddenly once this change goes in you're going to see more Arazu/Lachesis hulls flying around. You won't. They aren't used because they have crap DPS, crap tank, an undersized drone bay, and more importantly I can get an Orthrus for the same price and actually do damage. They will still be used in larger fleets due to long range tackle, and that's about it. Why do I say all this? Because the range at all 5 of a republic fleet scram on a Lachesis is 22.5km. Same as a T2 post change hictor focus point with this new fangled terrible idea of a script.


The whole point of this is that you should have to trade something for the extra point range, though your numbers here are incorrect.

Maximum with Command Links is 29.8km scrams without heat, 35km with heat. Neither heat nor Command Bursts affect scram range on a HIC.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#390 - 2017-03-10 20:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Cade Windstalker wrote:

No one is going to pick a Lachesis or Arazu over a HIC when the HIC has a better long-scram, better tank, and more DPS because those matter *way* more for any non-cloaky op than either the cloak or the d-scan immunity. Not to mention the ability to deploy a bubble to catch people if the fleet needs to setup a camp for some reason.

Claiming that HICs somehow need to have a longer scram than a scram-focused EWar cruiser is a little ridiculous...


Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#391 - 2017-03-10 20:30:48 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:


Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.


This mean ~106 km long point right?
Cade Windstalker
#392 - 2017-03-10 20:50:31 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.


Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't?

We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago.

I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better".

In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak?
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#393 - 2017-03-10 21:40:57 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
@CCP - So what exactly is the point of this thread? Looking through it 90% of the people are against the change. Yet you're just going forward with it anyway? HICs are fine right now, they don't need tweaking.


You're kind of answering your own question here. They're massively more powerful than ships with an actual scram-range focused bonus, and are basically completely overshadowing them.

CCP even flat out stated in the original 'HICs now Scram' thread that they were considering exactly this if the HIC-scram proved to be too powerful, which given its near ubiquitousness at this point has clearly proven to be the case.

Kassimila wrote:
Everyone seems to think that suddenly once this change goes in you're going to see more Arazu/Lachesis hulls flying around. You won't. They aren't used because they have crap DPS, crap tank, an undersized drone bay, and more importantly I can get an Orthrus for the same price and actually do damage. They will still be used in larger fleets due to long range tackle, and that's about it. Why do I say all this? Because the range at all 5 of a republic fleet scram on a Lachesis is 22.5km. Same as a T2 post change hictor focus point with this new fangled terrible idea of a script.


The whole point of this is that you should have to trade something for the extra point range, though your numbers here are incorrect.

Maximum with Command Links is 29.8km scrams without heat, 35km with heat. Neither heat nor Command Bursts affect scram range on a HIC.


I think you're missing the point that HICs cannot receive reps/assistance while pointing something. That IS the downside. Yes you are correct I didn't factor in links/heat. The statement CCP made was that this change was directed at SMALL GANG combat. I fail to see how a single HIC, shutting down a single targets MWD is too powerful. The entire role of the ship is to be tackle, and they are taking some of that away. All because the player base is too dense to bring a couple ECM ships to take care of the problem. The Lachesis in fact can point further, and just damp out the HIC. So I don't get this 'it doesn't have a role' BS.

In regards to the Lachesis/Arazu, it won't be used any more, or any less because of this change. It has Damps, it has a what 80k long point with republic heat/skills/etc? HICs don't get that. Most small gang stuff happens between 0-30km, so people bring ships that are good at those ranges. Lachs/Huggins are good for long range big fleets like Cerbs for example. Fleets where the HICs are near useless.
Nightfox BloodRaven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2017-03-10 21:44:12 UTC
Pvping in low sec for years.. honestly never ran into this "overpowering" hic problem.. and i fly an orthrus lol whatever if CCP wants to pander to one or two person who am I to say no .

Anyways.. fine if you nerf it but at least find me a use for the ship or else just get rid of it completely lol
Cade Windstalker
#395 - 2017-03-10 22:56:40 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
I think you're missing the point that HICs cannot receive reps/assistance while pointing something. That IS the downside. Yes you are correct I didn't factor in links/heat. The statement CCP made was that this change was directed at SMALL GANG combat. I fail to see how a single HIC, shutting down a single targets MWD is too powerful. The entire role of the ship is to be tackle, and they are taking some of that away. All because the player base is too dense to bring a couple ECM ships to take care of the problem. The Lachesis in fact can point further, and just damp out the HIC. So I don't get this 'it doesn't have a role' BS.

In regards to the Lachesis/Arazu, it won't be used any more, or any less because of this change. It has Damps, it has a what 80k long point with republic heat/skills/etc? HICs don't get that. Most small gang stuff happens between 0-30km, so people bring ships that are good at those ranges. Lachs/Huggins are good for long range big fleets like Cerbs for example. Fleets where the HICs are near useless.


It's not that the Gallente Recons don't have a potential role, it's that in practice the HIC overshadows them completely. The extra things the Recons bring to the table aren't enough to put them above HICs, which bring significantly more.

As to HICs not being able to receive reps, in a small gang situation that's not much of a downside. You can local-tank a HIC better than almost any other similarly sized ship except a T3C, and those things are ridiculous and have some of the best tank any sub-cap period. Shooting a HIC, even one with a point active, is a pretty much losing proposition for a small gang. Either the HIC has a local tank and will take forever to die, or it's brick-fit and will be able to either survive until its point target is dead or swap out with a buddy and get repped back up in a few cycles.

If you're correct and the Gallente Recons don't get any more use because of this then either:


  • the folks complaining about how well long-scrams counter Nano gangs are exaggerating and the long-scram isn't *that* required.

  • The Gallente Recons, or Recons in general, need some kind of love or attention.

  • The HIC was only being used because it offered such a fantastic combination of traits and at worst the nerf hasn't significantly hurt it, or at best its use will just slip out of the long-scram role and still otherwise see a healthy amount of use. In either case the nerf is still justified by HICs overshadowing long-scram focused ships and the former point about the Recons potentially needing some love may be true.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#396 - 2017-03-10 23:19:43 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.


Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't?

We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago.

I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better".

In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak?


It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC.

The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#397 - 2017-03-10 23:39:07 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.


Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't?

We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago.

I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better".

In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak?


It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC.

The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.


"Primary is the lachesis. Blap. Oh man I was scrammed for 5 seconds there that was close". The issue isn't HICs the issue is Lachesis/Arazu aren't that good. Curse/Rook however are amazing.
Tomoko Sunji
White Square.
#398 - 2017-03-10 23:51:25 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.


Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't?

We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago.

I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better".

In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak?


It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC.

The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.



HIC range was too long and has always been OP, giving it to lach would be stupid, period.
Cade Windstalker
#399 - 2017-03-11 00:45:24 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC.

The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.


Could you explain why ~5km of difference is so significant when the Lach/Arazu have relatively similar speeds to HICs (the Lach being faster than all but the Broadsword, which it ties with) and the potential damage increase that a kiting setup gets from sitting 5km closer is fairly minimal?

What's special about this ~40km breakpoint in your view?
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#400 - 2017-03-11 01:56:54 UTC
Removed a thread linking a killboard.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

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