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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

First post First post First post
Author
Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#121 - 2017-02-23 17:55:00 UTC
Jack Barros wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Fleshgrind wrote:
Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion.


Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-)


TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.


*Points at MWD legion taking dust in hangar for months*
Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2017-02-23 18:03:10 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships.

Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again


People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.


People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.


It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning.


I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing."
Mizhir
Higher Than Everest
Hazardous Company
#123 - 2017-02-23 18:06:03 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships.

Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again


People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.


People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.


It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning.


I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing."


Says the guy from the alliance known for bringing superior numbers to everything.

❤️️💛💚💙💜

Patty Loveless
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2017-02-23 18:11:42 UTC
lanyaie wrote:
Nice, although please leave HIC points to scram supers without the script. (Looking at you hels)

Quote:
TinkerHell
??????
MY ******* FIEND


nano snake revenant ftw
Mira Chieve
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#125 - 2017-02-23 18:11:57 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships.

Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again


People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.


People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.


It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning.


I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing."



94 percent gangs.

Ok you know what you are on about.

I think you should go back to your Sanctum, the next wave seems to have spawned.
Timm3h
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#126 - 2017-02-23 18:17:00 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Timm3h wrote:
*tips orthrus*
M' gameplay


Unironically HIC scrams just made Orthrus' much more prolific, because it's one of the few kiting ships that can project outside HIC Scram range while also tackling ships outside HIC scram range. What HICs killed was solo brawling with MJDs entirely, cheap, affordable or accessible kiting ships (RIP anyone trying to just take out a nano thorax, cane or stabber etc.).

Flying 100mn stuff + needing a Keres to even undock if you want to do non Orthrus stuff is getting boring.


Instead of thinking of counters to the problem that is the HIC no-fly-zone, it's just a matter of picking the better ship (which in this case is the orthrus) to deal more dps that applies better, at longer range, with longer ranged warp disruption and more maneuverability. The statement here isn't that the orthrus becomes more prolific, it's that the orthrus REMAINS the stronger choice and that they're shuffling relatively minor issues around instead of dealing with the ship that was (and has been for quite a while) the first choice to begin with.

Regular scrams also kill solo MJD brawling, and there are several equally-fearsome things to a t1 nano cruiser/bc like the orthrus, rapier, huginn, arazu, lachesis, keres, any ship bonused for ECM, or any longer-ranged ship that can force you off grid with zero effort. People don't like the HIC because it is a tool to force content to stay localized, pulling the control of tempo and positioning away from the same dull kite garbage that we've seen for years now. Instead of using existing ships and modules to create fits to work against this utility granted from HIC scrams, people just complain until they get their return to the status quo.

*tips orthrus*
Hirien
Frozen DD
#127 - 2017-02-23 18:17:19 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Good. RIP HICs. Long live Gallente Recons actually being able to do their job again.


(role bonus for scram range on fiend plzplzplzpzlpzlpzlzplzplzz)



Imho the AT ships should always keep their bonuses when they are released...
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
#128 - 2017-02-23 18:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
exiik Shardani wrote:
omg why? HICs r pretty expensive and only chance how to point these annoying kite plague around and it is nerfed :-(


Kiting isnt a plague, blobbing is a plague. Kiting exists because 10 Ships gang up on 2 ships. Then the 10 dudes complain that the guys ran. WTF do you expect? What would you do?

Constantly in this game people complain about **** they do themselves, you blob someone post it on reddit, then you get blobbed and you call people dirty blobbers.

Someone runs you make fun of them for running they come back and counter blob you with a bigger blob and you turn around and run.

Its a game stop complaining so much jesus man, everyone are such huge hipocrits. Waaaaa 1 dude wont let me blob him with 10 guys its not fair waaaa. He is actually a good pilot and has implants nerf him nerf him.

I bet you complained about the bubble decay changes too.

How about you fight them on even terms and then they wont run.

Well done CCP on your recent announcements on changes. TY for your hard work, not all your changes will be perfect but progress is progress.
CraftyCroc
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#129 - 2017-02-23 18:24:13 UTC
Hilarious the tears from the individuals who fly in 100+ man fleets over this. You have the numbers to field more stiletto's so just fix up.


Maybe now the dev's will fix this awful "booshing mechanic".
The name itself is absurd -something thought up by generation snowflake no doubt.
big miker
Syndicate Enterprise
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#130 - 2017-02-23 18:24:22 UTC
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!1!!11!1!!!1!!!!1!!!!!1!!1
CraftyCroc
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#131 - 2017-02-23 18:27:32 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships.

Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again


People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.


People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.


It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning.


I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing."


Ummmm...

I'll take a fight if i have a 5% chance of winning. I'm not fussed about losing a ship nor am i fussed about efficiency. I prefer piloting my own ship then flying in the blob. A 30KM scram gives me no options to nano. 0% chance of winning.
l0rd carlos
Goryn Clade
#132 - 2017-02-23 18:37:52 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:


- HICs are an essential tool in close to midrange fleet compositions when fighting longer ranged compositions.

- HICs are an essential tool to shut down certain ships/compositions which are able to project pretty well against the common tackler like rapid lights, tracking bonused cruisers and alike.

- HICs allow small fleets to shut down a certain part of the grid against stuff that would kite them all the time. Still possible of course and by no means a hard counter.

- HICs by themself can be countered super easily, they need force multiplier to become really nasty.


Sounds like something that will still be possible after the change.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

sharpscg
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#133 - 2017-02-23 18:52:58 UTC
I oppose this change. I think the long rage HIC points have been fine, especially considering that the remainder of that ship is utterly useless in small gang. HICs are slow and have low dps, which was been a good trade off for the unique long scram. I'm sad to see the HIC return to irrelevance for all but lowsec super hunting and I guess bullshit remote sebo gatecamps, as you intentionally left the scram range at a level perfect for this activity.
Alexhandr Shkarov
ExDominion
Evictus.
#134 - 2017-02-23 18:57:52 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again


People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.


People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.


I am learning to kite as brawler because there's literally no point brawling in anything but ganks anymore. Any fight that's small-ish results in your brawl comp being outran, or else so deep into the fight that strategic repositioning and other techniques no longer work.

Dumb change, now it's even easier to be a little obnoxious ****.

All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.

Ugly Eric
Drone Renter Federation
#135 - 2017-02-23 18:58:25 UTC
one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.

Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.

And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.

After these changes the HIC gets way more diversity, as it has 2 different scripts and a bubble. And piloting one is needing even more tactical understanding that it has now, as the slow cycletime combined with 2 very different script effects.

While at HIC's, the broadsword and the Phobos could use some small love to be as viable and multiusable platforms as the devoter and the onyx.

I still and once more really do like this change!
Trajan Unknown
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#136 - 2017-02-23 19:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Trajan Unknown
l0rd carlos wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:


- HICs are an essential tool in close to midrange fleet compositions when fighting longer ranged compositions.

- HICs are an essential tool to shut down certain ships/compositions which are able to project pretty well against the common tackler like rapid lights, tracking bonused cruisers and alike.

- HICs allow small fleets to shut down a certain part of the grid against stuff that would kite them all the time. Still possible of course and by no means a hard counter.

- HICs by themself can be countered super easily, they need force multiplier to become really nasty.


Sounds like something that will still be possible after the change.


No, it´s not possible anymore. The reason a HIC has a slight chance in surviving the current mid to large fleet meta is the range of the scram and that the fu*cker actually scrams. Bringing the HIC closer to the hostile fleet means you have to pull your logi closer, your dps closer or let the HIC be the loner in front of the fleet. Removing the scram means you can´t shut down individual ships and focus them down. Inties are nice for that role as well but simply not useable against certain fleets. Same for recons. You need that stupid tank to survive in the first place or well, have a chance to survive.

Regarding small gang/solo stuff. Once more people start leaving "team:re*tard" and use way nastier stuff than a HIC in their small gangs we will see the same people cry all over again. Ewar in general is the most annoying thing - I personally experienced - in small gang encounters. Even mid seized fleets with unbonused ewar are super nasty. It´s just that people are lazy and the lazy option is a HIC but let´s be a bit logical here for a moment. A slow, 700mil plus ISK HIC with moderate range/application is no good option vs ewar recons or Mordus ships. If you want to brawl yeah, the HIC might be your choice but if you want to brawl and bring some ewar on top of it and mix it up it will multiply your force by a lot. I guess most of us know how nasty certain recons or even frigs can be when you´re engaged in a brawl and they appear on grid.



Ugly Eric wrote:
one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.

Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.

And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.

After these changes the HIC gets way more diversity, as it has 2 different scripts and a bubble. And piloting one is needing even more tactical understanding that it has now, as the slow cycletime combined with 2 very different script effects.

While at HIC's, the broadsword and the Phobos could use some small love to be as viable and multiusable platforms as the devoter and the onyx.

I still and once more really do like this change!



This is the first post I read that has some substance in it. :)

The can´t tackle thing is correct for sure. But that refers to solo/small gang again right? I mean, a RMLM Onyx is nasty to tackle in an Inty or alike I imagine. But for fleet fights rapids make no sense. My fleet HIC barely has anything on it you could label as a direct damage dealing weapon system. Anyway, there is no need to tackle a HIC with a frigate/inty is there?


Regarding your utility vs mid-slot thingy. I agree, you can fit a couple WDFGs on a HIC and it´s usually best to get as many as you can on them - regarding fleet HICs. So yeh, mid´s for tank or whatever floats your boat. But and that´s something I value more than having utility highs or be able to fit multiple WDFGs in my highs. You get bonused ewar on the recons ships. So for small gang stuff you get more ewar per hull and damp+scram is a nice addition. Same for paint+web even when it´s usually more efficient to get more webs instead of point+web but well, more bang per hull in my book.

Last but not least the more versatile/complex thing. Do you really think that way? I mean, flying a HIC is not that hard now and won´t be hard if the nerf goes through. At least not from a perspective of actually deciding what to do and where to be. Changing scripts depending on situation is a no brainer and using a bubble will either kill you like it is now or you actually control the grid and the bubble is called for - again a no brainer. After all the HIC is no dictor which actually needs some finesse to be flown.
HIC is something you can dual or even tripple box and the nerf would not change that at all. It will stay the same easy to use hull as it was before just with some un needed nerfs to it.
UAxLIFE
Kiska-Rediska Inc.
#137 - 2017-02-23 19:11:01 UTC
Know your role hictor pilot: apply project.mayhem, set destination Tama.
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
Toilet Paper.
#138 - 2017-02-23 19:11:59 UTC
Good change, CCP.
HIC were really idiots (and too easy to kite with).
Emmy Mnemonic
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#139 - 2017-02-23 19:13:46 UTC
CCP, why are you fixing a problem that didn't exist for the broad masses of EVE players in the first place? Even for most small-scale pvp:ers, there has never been any problems with HICs beeing to oppressive or overpowered? Where on earth did you get that info from?! I strongly disagree with this change. It is not needed, especially not due to the reason you say!

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
Toilet Paper.
#140 - 2017-02-23 19:16:42 UTC
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:
CCP, why are you fixing a problem that didn't exist for the broad masses of EVE players in the first place? Even for most small-scale pvp:ers, there has never been any problems with HICs beeing to oppressive or overpowered? Where on earth did you get that info from?! I strongly disagree with this change. It is not needed, especially not due to the reason you say!

https://puu.sh/ugFB5/955cc917b2.png