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Eve WiS

Author
mkint
#121 - 2016-11-17 12:54:02 UTC
I go the other way. With ANY wis, it means they are basically supporting 2 completely separate games with the associated costs of doing so, one of which they have basically no experience with as a company and make basically zero dollars off of. Remove the space barbie that's there altogether. It's basically un salvageable.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2016-11-17 13:03:37 UTC
mkint wrote:
I go the other way. With ANY wis, it means they are basically supporting 2 completely separate games with the associated costs of doing so, one of which they have basically no experience with as a company and make basically zero dollars off of. Remove the space barbie that's there altogether. It's basically un salvageable.


Pretty much. The reasons CCP had for working on WiS were 1) a test engine for WoD and 2) a microtransaction catwalk to show off your shoes and monocles. Both are now irrelevant since WoD was scrapped and ship skins took priority over the clothing store. There's no business case for CCP to justify spending millions of dollars creating WiS.

Please let the corpse of the deceased rest in peace.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#123 - 2016-11-17 15:08:17 UTC
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#124 - 2016-11-17 18:12:10 UTC
With all the hours you guys spend waiting for an FC tell you when to undock I would think you'd want something to do other than a ship spin counter lol.

Eve is really missing out.

@lunettelulu7

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#125 - 2016-11-17 20:10:17 UTC
I want Ambulation, not incarnia. CCP's first attempt at walking in stations was actually pretty great, but they scrapped it.

As said above, there is not much of a business reason right now for WiS, so its most likely not going to happen. But still i wish it would

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2016-11-17 22:34:12 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
I want Ambulation, not incarnia. CCP's first attempt at walking in stations was actually pretty great, but they scrapped it.

As said above, there is not much of a business reason right now for WiS, so its most likely not going to happen. But still i wish it would

Aww come on man, not much of a business reason right now ?

When a business offers more variety with available options, that always brings in more customers. Now granted those customers may show up just for one specific thing but after a while they'll usually try out some of the other options as well.

More Options = More Customers = More Money


DMC
John WarpingSlow
#127 - 2016-11-17 23:15:45 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
I want Ambulation, not incarnia. CCP's first attempt at walking in stations was actually pretty great, but they scrapped it.


If I recall correctly, most of WiS was done up in the previous graphics engine before Carbon, and would need much effort to bring it forward to today's standards. Read up on the "Summer of Rage" and you'll get an idea why this is... unlikely.

If you're really curious to see what might have been, there's a Fanfest 2008 presentation by Torfi Olafsson (currently Creative Director for CCP, but at the time he was the Senior Producer) on YouTube: Walking in Stations

Here's some interesting time markers:

Leaving the captain's quarters and heading for the promenade: 33:30 "The Door" really was intended to open. Smile
Shops in installable sockets: 37:00
The bar & bartender: 38:40
The dancer: 40:30
Minigames (Table games) including "SecWars": 43:25
(This would have been an opportunity to have actual in-game betting between players, controlled by the gaming engine)

Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2016-11-17 23:40:30 UTC
John WarpingSlow wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
I want Ambulation, not incarnia. CCP's first attempt at walking in stations was actually pretty great, but they scrapped it.


If I recall correctly, most of WiS was done up in the previous graphics engine before Carbon, and would need much effort to bring it forward to today's standards. Read up on the "Summer of Rage" and you'll get an idea why this is... unlikely.

If you're really curious to see what might have been, there's a Fanfest 2008 presentation by Torfi Olafsson (currently Creative Director for CCP, but at the time he was the Senior Producer) on YouTube: Walking in Stations

Here's some interesting time markers:

Leaving the captain's quarters and heading for the promenade: 33:30 "The Door" really was intended to open. Smile
Shops in installable sockets: 37:00
The bar & bartender: 38:40
The dancer: 40:30
Minigames (Table games) including "SecWars": 43:25
(This would have been an opportunity to have actual in-game betting between players, controlled by the gaming engine)


The summer of rage was about 2 things.

The greed is good Nex store and them wasting development time and money on WiS

All in all it accomplished nothing other than lowering subscription numbers.

After all they stopped WiS and made Dust 514 (and keep building crap for the outskirts of this game) and we have the NES store instead of a NEX store.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

John WarpingSlow
#129 - 2016-11-18 00:15:18 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:

The summer of rage was about 2 things.


Those two things were definitely part of it, and then we had these "gems" as well:

- Graphic card meltdowns
- Crashing clients
- Crashing servers and serious downtime
- Users with relatively new machines/graphic cards being told: "Those don't meet our new minimum standards, upgrade."
(Hooboy, I'll be that was real popular at the time.)

Any one or two of these issues would have been difficult, but manageable. All of them together? 50% of the customer base revolted and left. Painful, but at least CCP got a wake up call that they needed. We got the Hilmar apology+promise to listen and do better, the customer base that was left responded positively, and that's pretty much the point you could see that WiS's goose was cooked and it was extremely unlikely that it would ever see development resources again. Pity about that, as the video I linked showed, there were some interesting ideas in there. Ah well, water under the bridge at this point.

A lot of people still enjoy EVE. In order to continue doing so, CCP must successfully strike a balance between core product development and their R&D on their side projects. Here's hoping they do.

Arnogh Weristrighis
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2016-11-18 01:09:54 UTC
John WarpingSlow wrote:
[quote=DaReaper]If I recall correctly, most of WiS was done up in the previous graphics engine before Carbon, and would need much effort to bring it forward to today's standards.


Only COD kids care about graphics nowadays. The models can be improved over time after WIS would be released.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2016-11-18 01:29:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Whats funny and sad is that people acknowledge that CCP has only really done one thing well (spaceships) while at the exact same time saying that CCP needs to add walking around to the game, despite the fact that it's been tried and abandoned. What makes them think CCP would do better this time? EVE is an old game, tacking new crap on has never worked, even seemingly simple stuff like Citadels seemed to have stretched them.

Shocked
Lol

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2016-11-18 01:35:48 UTC
John WarpingSlow wrote:
Read up on the "Summer of Rage" and you'll get an idea why this is... unlikely

Please stop the "Summer of Rage" garbage. Its embarassing. There was no "Summer of Rage". There were a bunch of nerds shooting an indestructible monument and some people unsubscribed because of microtransanctions.


Goons and CSM (pretty much the same people) took advantage of the microtransactions fallout to push their agenda for non WIS which they had been pushing for many months solely because Goons wanted more attention to be paid to what they wanted.

End of Story. Summer of Nerdy Goon Whinage is more accurate.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2016-11-18 05:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Steffles wrote:
John WarpingSlow wrote:
Read up on the "Summer of Rage" and you'll get an idea why this is... unlikely

Please stop the "Summer of Rage" garbage. Its embarassing. There was no "Summer of Rage". There were a bunch of nerds shooting an indestructible monument and some people unsubscribed because of microtransanctions.


Goons and CSM (pretty much the same people) took advantage of the microtransactions fallout to push their agenda for non WIS which they had been pushing for many months solely because Goons wanted more attention to be paid to what they wanted.

End of Story. Summer of Nerdy Goon Whinage is more accurate.

The Incarna Expansion of 2011 failed to deliver the WiS (Walking In Stations) that was promised years ago in 2006 known as Ambulation. The Incarna Expansion basically became the catalyst which, when combined with resulting events after deployment and previous in-game problems, ended up being 'The straw that broke the Camel's back' prompting player outrage and mass un-subs which quickly became known as 'The Summer Of Rage'..

Despite what some players may say, WiS was not the reason for 'The Summer Of Rage'. There's a lot of other issues that contributed to it which I've listed here in no particular order.

1. CCP ignoring 'The 1001 Papercuts' thread - large list of broken game mechanics and unfinished content since 2003.
2. Numerous expansions constantly being rushed out half finished, untested and bugged breaking existing content.
3. CCP introducing NEX Store and MT - selling overpriced items for real money bypassing player market and production.
4. Threat of 'Gold Ammo' and 'Gold Ships' enabling 'Pay to Win' exploitation.
5. CCP dividing their development resources to work on 3 different projects at the same time.
6. The 'Fearless Newsletter' leaked memo - Greed is good.
7. CCP statement of Eve Online being viewed as the Golden Goose.
8. 3rd party Developers being demanded to pay real money to CCP for providing free Eve Online applications to players.
9. CCP failure to keep and maintain their promise of 'Commitment to Excellence'.
10. Showing players 'The Door' and removing player option of choice, forcing player participation in Captains Quarters.
11. CCP attempting to diffuse the situation with excessive thread locking and banned accounts.
12. Lack of communication from CCP resulting in poor Public Relations due to ignoring the player base.
13. CCP releasing poorly written un-optimized code in the Incarna Expansion resulting in various client side issues.
14. Hilmar's statement - "Watch what they do, not what they say."

Basically Hilmar's statement became the rally cry for the mass un-subs. Those un-subs combined with a large loan payment being due resulted in CCP downsizing their company and placing the other projects on the back burner in order to refocus resources on fixing various issues in Eve.

A couple of expansions after Incarna (mostly 'Fix-it' patches), CCP once again tried revisiting WIS / Avatar Ambulation intending to incorporate it into exploration. Even though there were a lot of ideas presented to CCP to turn it into meaningful game content, the player base got into a rage war and couldn't agree on the basic game mechanics governing Avatar game content. Since 'The Summer Of Rage' was still a sore subject, CCP ended up dropping the project ..... again. In my opinion I believe CCP became 'Gun Shy' and didn't want another episode of Incarna events to happen.

Anyway, hopefully CCP will revisit WIS / Avatar Ambulation in the future. I don't expect it to be anytime soon, at the very least it'll be a few years from now, probably be even longer.


DMC
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2016-11-18 05:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
-Removed-

My mistake.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2016-11-18 05:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Mark Marconi wrote:
-Removed-

My mistake.

lol, I was just gonna say it's #6 on the list which is set up in no particular order.


DMC
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#136 - 2016-11-18 07:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Vigirr
#137 - 2016-11-18 08:08:07 UTC
Arkoth 24 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP are already building a PC shooter

Let's face it: EvE is the only good thing CCP made. You may call it an accident. All other project were just a waste of money or even never came out from development like WoD. And now they are sitting on EvE unable or being too afraid to create anything else.

DUST was closed. Gunjack? It's not even a game. Valkyrie? It would be just another DUST for small bunch of OR-users: launch, make some money, close.

As 'bout WiS - there are too many freaks who will whine constantly 'bout "EvE dyeing" if CCP will even talk 'bout it one more time, so enjoy your Captain's Quarters.


The mistake people make is that they see CCP as one entity, which it isn't. Through time you can distinguish 4 versions of CCP with different devs, motives and goals.

> 1999 - 2007ish: CCP of old with Oveur and people who dared to be different, didn't do the carebear PC thing and who were very talented and creative. They made EVE, this is the CCP we remember and loved

> 2007-2011: a CCP who doesn't care for EVE itself, they just want more subs so they can do other things. They were caretakers at best with horrible ideas. The one notable thing from that era is Apocrypha which was mostly done by an ex-player, in a remarkably short development time. The rest is all terrible and ultimately resulted in Incarnage, the summer of rage. This CCP was incapable of creating anything decent

>2011-2014: the "oh crap" CCP where they realised that ignoring your customers and the goose that lays the golden eggs you buy your cocaine with isn't really good business sense. Lots of stuff got done but realistically it was CCP catching up and making up for lost dev time. They started working on Valkyrie but most of it had to be redone later anyway

2014- now: the Seagull era, more than a caretaker and dares to change stuff that cause short term problems but offers long term solutions. I might not always agree with the decisions as such but it's obvious this CCP has a vision and puts in lots of effort to make EVE a better game. This CCP might be able to create something new and get away with it
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#138 - 2016-11-18 08:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
I have seen that they always upgraded the game, but often left those upgrades in the form they delivered, not really caring about them later and only redoing them long after everyone seen how broken they can be, but left some things very rudimentary to this day, just like with PI or WIS. See in particular how much time we had to wait until they reworked FW, or Structures, or Industry.

As if all this chase for more features left no time for iterations, and they had to prioritize in the long run. And those features requiring a lot of work were first to be dropped, and last to be iterated on later. 🕑 💵📋📊

And some features required a lot of background work, not really visible in client until they delivered stuff working in new environment.
Arnogh Weristrighis
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2016-11-18 13:46:01 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
As if all this chase for more features left no time for iterations, and they had to prioritize in the long run. And those features requiring a lot of work were first to be dropped, and last to be iterated on later. 🕑 💵📋📊

And some features required a lot of background work, not really visible in client until they delivered stuff working in new environment.

Yeah, sounds like average gamedev for me. Though again, as I was saying, graphics don't need to be good at first, they can improve on them later. As for the code side, well since they've got that demo that someone else showed up in this thread, they could probably reuse that code with little modification to get the WIS up & running.

Though about walking thing, they'd really need to add running and jumping, otherwise moving around stations would suck. I don't expect AssCreed-like parkour (would be fun though if they'd manage to do that, especially if they introduce ground combat), but just ability to run and jump over smaller obstacles.

So yeah, it would be quite easy to adapt that old code and add WIS. Probably would take a month or two (dunno if their netcode and client/server internals changed between then and now and if so by how much), but compared to the things they have to do just to keep game running, it's peanuts.
mkint
#140 - 2016-11-18 13:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Nana Skalski wrote:

And some features required a lot of background work, not really visible in client until they delivered stuff working in new environment.


This seems to be a running theme with CCP:

"Oh, we're doing a massive upgrade to the NPC AI that will close the gap between PVE and PVP fits!" -come out with wormholes, the sleeper AI doesn't affect the vast majority of PVE

"Oh, we're restructuring the mission system so we can have much more elaborate storylines in mission!" -puts out some epic arcs, only one of which sees any traffic as it's treated as part of the tutorials.

"Oh, we're putting together a new mission and NPC authoring system so we can revamp missions and put out new content easier and faster" -absolutely nothing happens with any of this work.

"New AI again" -incursions, mostly the same AI as sleepers but in highsec, abandoned after a few minor balance tweeks.

"New AI again"

"new AI again"

And the majority of PVE is still done with the original AI in belts, anoms, and missions.

What other systems have had the same story? An entire continent of fallow fields.

Arnogh Weristrighis wrote:
quite easy to adapt that old code

There's a reason why that old code was abandoned. There's a reason why the current implemented code was abandoned. Cost. It's NOT easy. Neither of those systems could support more than 1 or 2 avatars on the screen at the same time. It was garbage code, unsalvageable. (They might be able to reuse some of the graphical assets, maybe, but if you haven't paid attention, graphical assets in EVE seem to expire faster than milk.) That garbage code is part of why players were so upset, the code was so bad it reached into the physical world and destroyed brand new computers.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.