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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#801 - 2016-10-28 09:28:21 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


I see stuff like this as a stealth buff to exploration. P
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#802 - 2016-10-28 09:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
exiik Shardani wrote:
CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build



2 words...

Palatine Keepstar
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#803 - 2016-10-28 11:53:54 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Strangely, I would venture to guess that CCP has intimate knowledge of the amount of salvage tucked away in various hangers and personal inventory to know that what you see on the market in Jita is not representative of the actual salvage in the game. It is almost like people have been anticipating these rigs and all their counterparts and those yet to come for almost 1.5 years and collecting salvage for their own purposes...
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#804 - 2016-10-28 13:27:06 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(

Don't be silly Roll

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#805 - 2016-10-28 14:30:22 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Been saying this since Citadels were introduced. There is no point to having rigs that cannot be built for lack of raw materials.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#806 - 2016-10-28 14:52:24 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Hey !!!!

Thanks for those changes.
Now, there are much more reasons to use ECs for everyone.

Two questions :
- the 1% flat bonus on ME, is it additive or multiplicative ? For the rigs i assume it's still multiplicative.
- Is it possible to cancel jobs after armor reinforcement ?








All bonuses are multiplicative.

The only time you add, is for skills, before you then multiply it in.


So if I were building widgets that require 100k tritanium in an EC in nulsec with a T1 rig, the total materials required would be: 100k * (1-.01) * (1-.02*2.1) = 94842 tritanium, a 5.158% ME reduction?

Or would it be 100k * (1 - (.01 + .02 * 2.1)) = 94800, a 5.52% reduction?

From what you said I think the former is correct.

Also, still WTB Large capital component and capital ship rigs.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#807 - 2016-10-28 14:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Soldarius wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Hey !!!!

Thanks for those changes.
Now, there are much more reasons to use ECs for everyone.

Two questions :
- the 1% flat bonus on ME, is it additive or multiplicative ? For the rigs i assume it's still multiplicative.
- Is it possible to cancel jobs after armor reinforcement ?








All bonuses are multiplicative.

The only time you add, is for skills, before you then multiply it in.


So if I were building widgets that require 100k tritanium in an EC in nulsec with a T1 rig, the total materials required would be: 100k * (1-.01) * (1-.02*2.1) = 94842 tritanium, a 5.158% ME reduction?

Or would it be 100k * (1 - (.01 + .02 * 2.1)) = 94800, a 5.52% reduction?

From what you said I think the former is correct.

Also, still WTB Large capital component and capital ship rigs.


Yes, the former is correct - the ME multiplier will be .99 * .958 = .94842

L-set capital component and capital ship efficiency rigs exist on Singularity, last I checked. Not actually seeded, but they do show up in the market search.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#808 - 2016-10-28 14:59:31 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Been saying this since Citadels were introduced. There is no point to having rigs that cannot be built for lack of raw materials.


How many XL ECs do you think will be built? No ask, how many of those groups building them do you think have salvage stockpiles for building the rigs they want?

It's not like someone building an XL EC and then wanting to T2 rig it is just going to go buy the salvage off sell orders in Jita...
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#809 - 2016-10-28 15:07:56 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Been saying this since Citadels were introduced. There is no point to having rigs that cannot be built for lack of raw materials.


How many XL ECs do you think will be built? No ask, how many of those groups building them do you think have salvage stockpiles for building the rigs they want?

It's not like someone building an XL EC and then wanting to T2 rig it is just going to go buy the salvage off sell orders in Jita...


I don't expect XL ECs to be all that rare. T2 rigged ones.... I can't see that being worth it unless you're building titans and keepstars en masse.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#810 - 2016-10-28 15:30:49 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Strangely, I would venture to guess that CCP has intimate knowledge of the amount of salvage tucked away in various hangers and personal inventory to know that what you see on the market in Jita is not representative of the actual salvage in the game. It is almost like people have been anticipating these rigs and all their counterparts and those yet to come for almost 1.5 years and collecting salvage for their own purposes...

Many have been saving up T2 salvage - To build rigs people will buy, I don't believe there is any group has enough T2 salvage tucked away to start building T2 rigs for Citadels and EC's.
If they have, it still doesn't help anyone who hasn't been stockpiling it for a couple of years.

Can you honestly see someone fitting a 100bil+ rig to such an easily destroyed structure as an EC? One rig costs more than the entire structure.

Just remembered, I had a friend living in a WH for a few years, he stockpiled all his T2 salvage, had a ton of the stuff (it was to be his titan fund). Thing is he hasn't played for over a year.,,. And, likely won't be back..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#811 - 2016-10-28 15:45:11 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Strangely, I would venture to guess that CCP has intimate knowledge of the amount of salvage tucked away in various hangers and personal inventory to know that what you see on the market in Jita is not representative of the actual salvage in the game. It is almost like people have been anticipating these rigs and all their counterparts and those yet to come for almost 1.5 years and collecting salvage for their own purposes...

Many have been saving up T2 salvage - To build rigs people will buy, I don't believe there is any group has enough T2 salvage tucked away to start building T2 rigs for Citadels and EC's.
If they have, it still doesn't help anyone who hasn't been stockpiling it for a couple of years.

Can you honestly see someone fitting a 100bil+ rig to such an easily destroyed structure as an EC? One rig costs more than the entire structure.

Just remembered, I had a friend living in a WH for a few years, he stockpiled all his T2 salvage, had a ton of the stuff (it was to be his titan fund). Thing is he hasn't played for over a year.,,. And, likely won't be back..


I'm sure someone much smarter than I about supercap building in null can figure out the cost/benefit but a group with an XLEC is going to defend it. Doesn't matter how "easy" it is to kill if you can't kill it because of the defense fleet. If the rig gives a decent savings over a long period of time, people will make the investment just like they do with T2 BPOs, etc.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#812 - 2016-10-28 19:33:21 UTC
Obil Que wrote:

I'm sure someone much smarter than I about supercap building in null can figure out the cost/benefit but a group with an XLEC is going to defend it. Doesn't matter how "easy" it is to kill if you can't kill it because of the defense fleet. If the rig gives a decent savings over a long period of time, people will make the investment just like they do with T2 BPOs, etc.

People don't buy T2 BPO's to make money selling the product.
They buy the T2 BPO to make a little profit on manufacturing for 6 months, then make the big profit selling the T2 BPO on when they realise that the ROI will be 50 years plus to the next sucker who thinks T2 BPO are awesome.
The main people profiting from T2 BPO's are the groups that got them all in the original lotteries and have sat on them the entire time.

That is very different from a destructible structure, where you have to select via permanent (titan priced) rigs what it's bonused towards, and end up stuck with it even if the market moves.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
Rezeda Regnum
#813 - 2016-10-28 22:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: exiik Shardani
Obil Que wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Strangely, I would venture to guess that CCP has intimate knowledge of the amount of salvage tucked away in various hangers and personal inventory to know that what you see on the market in Jita is not representative of the actual salvage in the game. It is almost like people have been anticipating these rigs and all their counterparts and those yet to come for almost 1.5 years and collecting salvage for their own purposes...

Many have been saving up T2 salvage - To build rigs people will buy, I don't believe there is any group has enough T2 salvage tucked away to start building T2 rigs for Citadels and EC's.
If they have, it still doesn't help anyone who hasn't been stockpiling it for a couple of years.

Can you honestly see someone fitting a 100bil+ rig to such an easily destroyed structure as an EC? One rig costs more than the entire structure.

Just remembered, I had a friend living in a WH for a few years, he stockpiled all his T2 salvage, had a ton of the stuff (it was to be his titan fund). Thing is he hasn't played for over a year.,,. And, likely won't be back..


I'm sure someone much smarter than I about supercap building in null can figure out the cost/benefit but a group with an XLEC is going to defend it. Doesn't matter how "easy" it is to kill if you can't kill it because of the defense fleet. If the rig gives a decent savings over a long period of time, people will make the investment just like they do with T2 BPOs, etc.


some math

XL T2 rig price 100b <- (but sisi say over 270b)
you get 1% ME bonus <- (just for ship, you need other rig for ME for capital parts if I read it right)
if titan price 100b <- (for easy math)
you need build 100x titan to have 0 ISK bilance (0% ROI)

sry for my English :-(

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#814 - 2016-10-28 23:17:46 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
rigs cost :-D lol

XL T2 rigs needs more t2 salvage than is actually for sale on Jita and price (really titan cost for one rig)...



CCPls why do add something what is almost impossible build and for price that has negative ROI... :-(


Strangely, I would venture to guess that CCP has intimate knowledge of the amount of salvage tucked away in various hangers and personal inventory to know that what you see on the market in Jita is not representative of the actual salvage in the game. It is almost like people have been anticipating these rigs and all their counterparts and those yet to come for almost 1.5 years and collecting salvage for their own purposes...

Many have been saving up T2 salvage - To build rigs people will buy, I don't believe there is any group has enough T2 salvage tucked away to start building T2 rigs for Citadels and EC's.
If they have, it still doesn't help anyone who hasn't been stockpiling it for a couple of years.

Can you honestly see someone fitting a 100bil+ rig to such an easily destroyed structure as an EC? One rig costs more than the entire structure.

Just remembered, I had a friend living in a WH for a few years, he stockpiled all his T2 salvage, had a ton of the stuff (it was to be his titan fund). Thing is he hasn't played for over a year.,,. And, likely won't be back..


I'm sure someone much smarter than I about supercap building in null can figure out the cost/benefit but a group with an XLEC is going to defend it. Doesn't matter how "easy" it is to kill if you can't kill it because of the defense fleet. If the rig gives a decent savings over a long period of time, people will make the investment just like they do with T2 BPOs, etc.
Towers with supers in build, die quite often because other groups don't want XXX group to have another super (and it's fun blowing them up).
An Xlarge EC, where you will eventually by default be able to see what is being built in it, is not going to be any harder to kill than a large tower (or two or three). If some of these groups decide - Your towers are going to die - They are going to die no matter how much of a defense you can put up.

The only groups (and there is only a few) who could successfully build and defend these new XLEC's, are the same ones who can and will destroy anyone else's.
CCP is releasing a new line of structures for the large elite/ist groups to use, not that it is "large groups" who build these things, it is a few individuals from within the largest, most powerful groups. Alliances don't go out and build manufacturing structures, small groups from within them do.
I'm not sure there would be one alliance in the game, who will spend upwards of 100bil, so 10 guys (or 1 guy with 9 alts) from that alliance can make isk building supers..

T2 BPO's - Are collector items for the rich and idle, buying a T2 BPO is not an investment you make to build for the market and get rich. Just like a super cap EC, they won't show a profit for many years. Although, the BPO is probably a much better investment - It can't be blown up and you can take it with you if/when you get pushed out of your space.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#815 - 2016-10-29 13:44:17 UTC
I am glad CCP pushed engineering complexes to a slightly better spot with the announced changes, but I still doubt its enough. They should have better means to protect themselves and should provide bigger bonuses for the people that use them.

My main concern are the rigs tho. I have done some calculations and it seems to me that T2 rigs are very badly designed. The manufacturing cost of T2 engineering complex rig is very high and the bonus provided compared to T1 rig is negligable. I have done some calculations and it seems to me that either the T2 rig pays off within several lifetimes of the player (!!!Shocked) or the number of players simultaneously using that complex needs to be so high that the industry index skyrockets long before it pays off and thus renders it pretty much useless. Can someone please provide me with some correction or example, when does a T2 rig pay off?

T1 large manufacturing rig: 635 M ISK, T2 large manufacturing rig: 8.6b ISK, price difference: roughly 8b ISK

Bonus provided compared to T1 rig in high sec: 0.99*0.98-0.99*0.976=3.96*10^-3

...the 8b of difference pays within 8*(100/3.96*10^-3)/(x) months, where x is manufactured goods per month in billions ISK within the complex. For example, if you manufacture 20b of goods per month in the complex, the rig pays off in roughly 842 years Shocked
MyShop
Fasters Than Chuck Norris
#816 - 2016-10-29 13:48:45 UTC
Too much rig fragmentation, this make Raitaru almost useless, as prices will be reduced to the optimal production cost (2.4% to 4% reduction).
Saeka Tyr
Sanctuary of Shadows
Snuffed Out
#817 - 2016-10-29 15:26:40 UTC
Fozzie could we please get a 2.11 modifier on the wh/null bonus to push t2 rigs past ME6? Without the 5 to 6 breakpoint, the difference between T1 and T2 ME rigging is significantly less than you might think otherwise.
Phee Phi PhoPhum
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#818 - 2016-10-29 15:42:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]Hey folks, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm going through everything and I'll be

Azbel
1% reduction in manufacturing job required materials
20% reduction in manufacturing and science job required time
4% reduction in manufacturing and science job required ISK cost
25% reduction in Engineering Service Module fuel consumption

Big thanks to everyone posting feedback in this thread so far, and to the CSM.


First, thanks for these changes. They are a big help!

Azbel needs more CPU/PWR Grid. I can't get a full fit on it with all services.

I'd like to see fighters on the Raitaru and more EHP across the board.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#819 - 2016-10-31 14:20:53 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Yes, the former is correct - the ME multiplier will be .99 * .958 = .94842

L-set capital component and capital ship efficiency rigs exist on Singularity, last I checked. Not actually seeded, but they do show up in the market search.


ty for conifrmation of ME formula for ECs. I happened to use sisi yesterday and saw that those rigs are indeed authored if not seeded.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#820 - 2016-10-31 19:38:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
*Lowsec rig bonus multiplier: 1.9x
* Nullsec rig bonus multiplier: 2.1x

First, that's huge compared to hisec (90% & 110%). Second, that's not much difference between nulsec and lowsec in comparison (i.e. hisec being 1.7x rather than 1x would have been more sensible).

I'm really disappointed that industry in hisec is being nerfed so hard. Like many others, I was expecting a hisec EC to be at least on par with hisec starbases, especially given that EC are so much more vulnerable, expensive (it looks like 8b-10b for an Azbel setup that is still inferior to a hisec starbase), and less functional.

More risk (more expensive structure & fittings), less reward (lower industry bonuses). Seems wrong.