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[November] Rorqual Changes

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Author
Quriel Arjar
Doomheim
#361 - 2016-10-25 17:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Quriel Arjar
Kenneth Fritz wrote:
Use 500mn mwd. Let it cycle only once either by turning it off or disabling the auto-repeat. Either way you'll see sideways warps that would make a superstructure cry uncle. I also don't think you need inertials for this trick either.


That's exactly what I do. It doesn't, however, work without inertia stabs and neither it does perfectly (by what I mean Rorqual entering warp instantaneously after the MWD cycle ends) with 3 of them.

From what I remember this MWD 10 seconds to enter warp trick used to work better and was more reliable with the "old" Rorqual, not the one we have on Sisi right now.

EDIT: Alright, I've totally forgot about overheating the MWD Roll
Quriel Arjar
Doomheim
#362 - 2016-10-25 17:24:09 UTC
Whoops, double post.
Sergeant L
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#363 - 2016-10-25 19:05:26 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Sergeant L wrote:
A few changes I would like to suggest. Since the Rorqual by far is not cheap we should make it possible for it to survive at least given the risk vs isk on mining. With the following:
1. Make the industrial core timer only 1 minute just like the marauders. Keep thee same consumption that there is now just divide it accordingly.
2. Either make the ore from the new mining drones instantly appear at the end of the cycle in the ore hold or make all the ore coming from the drones already compressed. The movement of the drones to the rorqual to dump is time consuming and lowers the mining yield for the isk/hr.

Other than that I think your spot on. Sitting for 5 min just because its old code doesn't make sense, change it and let the miners have a bit of a chance to get out and live another day for once.

Nice work cant wait for the 8th of November. Big smile

You already can make like 300M isk/hour while tanking 50k DPS, dealing 2k DPS, and becoming invulnerable on command. What more do you want? A Rorqual mining away in a cynojammed system would be almost impossible to kill with a 1 min siege timer. Anything capable of killing it won't be able to get there before it jumps out.


I see your point of more ganking miners. Has it ever occurred to you why people leave eve? They are tired of getting jumped all the time, even in HS if they wanted a fight they would just go to NS, LS or WH's.. The proof of being worried about users leaving is the now, the clones states. All of us old eve players are pretty set, new players get frustrated about the constant ambushing etc. You know it, you just said no fair, what you don't want a good fight with someone shooting back at you?. Well look at it his way, you don't even have to scan to find the miners, they are in a easy anomaly belt for you just to instantly warp in as you hit the system. Heck you don't even have to hit the scanner as you get free information on who is there and the system sov, so you know they are mining. Free intel all for the roaming gank fleets. Its okay but, have you seen the price of ships lately? I wonder why they are getting so high? Well, enjoy it was just a suggestion to put in on par with those that run all the PVE sites. There is no reason the best mining ship should be stuck when the best PVE ships can get out easily as well. Eve needs balance and they at least are on a better track right now. Cheers and happy hunting!
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#364 - 2016-10-25 22:02:50 UTC
so you go from 3000m3 to 18000+ m3 by siege

I kind of feel that the out of siege number is to low, i would personally like to see it half of the siege


so 9000m3 for unsieged and 18000+ for sieged.

That way your still doing better then a couple of hulks (as you should be since its a 3 billion isk ship and the drones are over a hulks cost each)


this also makes it worth it even in regions that are less then friendly alot of the time.
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#365 - 2016-10-25 22:12:48 UTC
Quriel Arjar wrote:
Kenneth Fritz wrote:
Use 500mn mwd. Let it cycle only once either by turning it off or disabling the auto-repeat. Either way you'll see sideways warps that would make a superstructure cry uncle. I also don't think you need inertials for this trick either.


That's exactly what I do. It doesn't, however, work without inertia stabs and neither it does perfectly (by what I mean Rorqual entering warp instantaneously after the MWD cycle ends) with 3 of them.

From what I remember this MWD 10 seconds to enter warp trick used to work better and was more reliable with the "old" Rorqual, not the one we have on Sisi right now.

EDIT: Alright, I've totally forgot about overheating the MWD Roll


New option is to agility command boost yourself. Gives aggro, but with the Rorqual most warps are long enough for that to expire.
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#366 - 2016-10-25 22:40:38 UTC
Sergeant L wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Sergeant L wrote:
A few changes I would like to suggest. Since the Rorqual by far is not cheap we should make it possible for it to survive at least given the risk vs isk on mining. With the following:
1. Make the industrial core timer only 1 minute just like the marauders. Keep thee same consumption that there is now just divide it accordingly.
2. Either make the ore from the new mining drones instantly appear at the end of the cycle in the ore hold or make all the ore coming from the drones already compressed. The movement of the drones to the rorqual to dump is time consuming and lowers the mining yield for the isk/hr.

Other than that I think your spot on. Sitting for 5 min just because its old code doesn't make sense, change it and let the miners have a bit of a chance to get out and live another day for once.

Nice work cant wait for the 8th of November. Big smile

You already can make like 300M isk/hour while tanking 50k DPS, dealing 2k DPS, and becoming invulnerable on command. What more do you want? A Rorqual mining away in a cynojammed system would be almost impossible to kill with a 1 min siege timer. Anything capable of killing it won't be able to get there before it jumps out.


I see your point of more ganking miners. Has it ever occurred to you why people leave eve? They are tired of getting jumped all the time, even in HS if they wanted a fight they would just go to NS, LS or WH's.. The proof of being worried about users leaving is the now, the clones states. All of us old eve players are pretty set, new players get frustrated about the constant ambushing etc. You know it, you just said no fair, what you don't want a good fight with someone shooting back at you?. Well look at it his way, you don't even have to scan to find the miners, they are in a easy anomaly belt for you just to instantly warp in as you hit the system. Heck you don't even have to hit the scanner as you get free information on who is there and the system sov, so you know they are mining. Free intel all for the roaming gank fleets. Its okay but, have you seen the price of ships lately? I wonder why they are getting so high? Well, enjoy it was just a suggestion to put in on par with those that run all the PVE sites. There is no reason the best mining ship should be stuck when the best PVE ships can get out easily as well. Eve needs balance and they at least are on a better track right now. Cheers and happy hunting!

"I see your point of more ganking miners"
Please point out where I said this. I just said that the rorqual shouldn't be nigh-invunlnerable.

"Has it ever occurred to you why people leave eve? They are tired of getting jumped all the time, even in HS if they wanted a fight they would just go to NS, LS or WH's.."
You are aware that by your logic anyone using the rorqual wants a fight? Since they have to go to lowsec, nullsec, or wormholes to fly it. Also, EvE is a PvP game built around the fact that anyone can show up and wreck your stuff. Love it or leave it.

"what you don't want a good fight with someone shooting back at you?"
The Rorqual itself deals 2000DPS max while in siege, and any skiffs supporting it can be nasty themselves. And there will be combat ships showing up as the Rorqual takes a while to kill. Does that qualify as shooting back yet?

"Well, enjoy it was just a suggestion to put in on par with those that run all the PVE sites. There is no reason the best mining ship should be stuck when the best PVE ships can get out easily as well."
A tackled carrier can run as easily as a sieged rorqual. The difference is the carrier can't tank 50000DPS and become invulnerable on command for 5+ minutes.

Personally, I think the Rorqual will be far too safe in a cynojammed system if you set the core to 1 minute. By the time anything large enough to kill the Rorqual gets there, the Rorq will have sieged down and cynoed out.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Grookshank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2016-10-26 10:38:52 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Quote:
reduced mass (allowing the Rorqual to travel through the same wormholes as Freighters)


Can we please have clarification on this: will the Rorqual be able to enter Thera or will it be denied by a "no capital" rule?


Is there a chance to get a definitive answer before the patch hits tranq?
Confirmed
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#368 - 2016-10-26 14:00:45 UTC
I was doing some intial testing with the changes and have two questions:

1) the ore bay was only 250,000? I thought it was moving to 300,000.

2) The iniability to dock at a Large Indy is a bit of an issue. This is making things really difficult for the sake of being a pita. Initially there are ways around it but as existing things are removed from the game, this is really unbalanced.. This isn't about combat logistics, this is about the amount of ore moving around. 250,000 or 300,000 of compressed ore being moved for building things in null will be extremely difficult to accomplish as long as docking isn't allowed in a large.

I understand the medium (to some extent) though they shouldn't allow freighters either then in my view. However Larges are going to be the more common deployment even in large alliances and not being able to put your major backbone of ore generation into them is a huge drawback.

Now, if it was something like 'can dock for now, but when the patch of you can put things in from the outside' comes along that will change things somewhat but initially it's very drudgery inducing for the sake of drudgery, not the sake of game play.
Zockhandra
Lethal Injection Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#369 - 2016-10-26 16:12:23 UTC
P.A.N.I.C. Module:
Requires Invulnerability Core Operation skill level 1
Duration: 5 minutes base, up to 7.5 minutes based on skills
200km range
Applies to all mining and industrial ships within the same fleet, except other Rorquals
Runs once and then burns out
Limit of one module per ship
Bonuses to all affected ships:
  • +99.99% Shield Resists
  • -90% Shield recharge duration (increases passive shield regen rate)
  • All turret, missile, drone and smart bomb damage set to 0
  • +100% Mass
  • -50% velocity
  • Prevents warp, cloak, jump, dock, tethering (if already tethered do not apply)
  • -75% scan resolution
[/quote]

So Basically not only was dropping on miners hard before. But now they have a 5-7.5 Minute invuln period where any aggressors are forced to disengage if they don't have serious support.... How is the module burning out any loss at all, when you can repair them for free at stations?

Why couldn't it be that this module did the mining boosts instead? so instead you had:

-Massively increased mining yield for fleet
-Fleet immobilized for extended periods
-Slightly increased shield resistances and bonuses to local reps on those ships


All the P.A.N.I.C module is going to do, is make miners un-killable in an already hard to hunt environment.


That being said, i like the idea of the rorq taking part in operations and actually getting to mine on a proper level i think that its a very positive change especially given the risk involved. But i reserve my opinion on the panic module.....

I think that the module is going to cause some horrible horrible problems for everyone.

Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.

H3llHound
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#370 - 2016-10-26 16:20:52 UTC
Zockhandra wrote:
P.A.N.I.C. Module:
Requires Invulnerability Core Operation skill level 1
Duration: 5 minutes base, up to 7.5 minutes based on skills
200km range
Applies to all mining and industrial ships within the same fleet, except other Rorquals
Runs once and then burns out
Limit of one module per ship
Bonuses to all affected ships:
  • +99.99% Shield Resists
  • -90% Shield recharge duration (increases passive shield regen rate)
  • All turret, missile, drone and smart bomb damage set to 0
  • +100% Mass
  • -50% velocity
  • Prevents warp, cloak, jump, dock, tethering (if already tethered do not apply)
  • -75% scan resolution


So Basically not only was dropping on miners hard before. But now they have a 5-7.5 Minute invuln period where any aggressors are forced to disengage if they don't have serious support.... How is the module burning out any loss at all, when you can repair them for free at stations?

Why couldn't it be that this module did the mining boosts instead? so instead you had:

-Massively increased mining yield for fleet
-Fleet immobilized for extended periods
-Slightly increased shield resistances and bonuses to local reps on those ships


All the P.A.N.I.C module is going to do, is make miners un-killable in an already hard to hunt environment.


That being said, i like the idea of the rorq taking part in operations and actually getting to mine on a proper level i think that its a very positive change especially given the risk involved. But i reserve my opinion on the panic module.....

I think that the module is going to cause some horrible horrible problems for everyone.[/quote]

They wont be unkillable. Just wait 5-7min and then kill them. PANIC mod burns out with one use like the capital hull energizer
Trevize Demerzel
#371 - 2016-10-26 17:54:55 UTC
Very happy with the proposed changes. On test I do see an area of concern however.

The new mining drones are painfully slow, thus making the mining yields MUCH less then what has been stated.

-

Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#372 - 2016-10-27 00:46:35 UTC
Arronicus wrote:

That's exactly my point, the theoretical max yield was never accurate to begin with. With ship fittings alone and no skills, you got way more than it.

Is also worth noting excavator mining drones are going to be stupidly expensive

The theoretical yield was accurate assuming mining rigs were stacking penalized.

This would give a total Rig multiplier of 1.374048938. All things in EvE being multiplicative, you multiply the stat by the effect of one rig. Then you multiply the new total by the effect of the next module, reduced by stacking penalties, and so on.

This results in a yield of ~27626.67 per cycle with 5 drones, which works out to 18,417.78 per min.

I'm leaving the tilde in there because there's other funky stuff going on with how it's calculated on the current sisi build and I can't get my sheet to add up at certain points. The final yield in practice does mach my sheet when sieged, but with the core off there's about a 10% discrepancy - which is really odd, as that number is just multiplied by the core effect.

Since the rigs are not incurring stacking penalties, It's Yied*1.15*1.15*1.1 which gives us a 1.45475 multiplier from the combined rigs.

With my test character (t1 core, ship skill to 4, drone spec 3), this means a theoretical yield of 6,577.74 m3 per drone per cycle, which matches the 411 spod that appeared in my ore bay from a single drone. Setting all skills to 5, shows 29,226.67 per cycle of 5 drones, or 19,484.44 m3 per minute. If I get the sheet sorted (or give up trying) I'll post it in the thread.

What does get stacking penalized, is the drone speed bonus of the core with Drone Nav Computers.
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#373 - 2016-10-27 10:34:53 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
so you go from 3000m3 to 18000+ m3 by siege

I kind of feel that the out of siege number is to low, i would personally like to see it half of the siege


so 9000m3 for unsieged and 18000+ for sieged.

That way your still doing better then a couple of hulks (as you should be since its a 3 billion isk ship and the drones are over a hulks cost each)


this also makes it worth it even in regions that are less then friendly alot of the time.


Given your ability to move around while unsieged, you would be pulling roughly the same yield out of siege, as in siege, which would be completely broken in itself. Ultimately though, I think the reason is so big in siege is because you are actually vulnerable. An attentive out of siege rorqual is impossible to catch. There is simply no way to catch it when the pilot piloting the rorqual either has it aligned, or has an emergency escape cyno ready. The rorqual in siege though is extremely vulnerable to getting tackled. When hostiles come in, it's almost a garauntee that the sieged rorqual will get tackled, whereas the unsieged wont, so WHY would you give unsieged such comparable yield?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#374 - 2016-10-27 14:49:15 UTC
Nam Dnilb wrote:
Quriel Arjar wrote:
Kenneth Fritz wrote:
Use 500mn mwd. Let it cycle only once either by turning it off or disabling the auto-repeat. Either way you'll see sideways warps that would make a superstructure cry uncle. I also don't think you need inertials for this trick either.


That's exactly what I do. It doesn't, however, work without inertia stabs and neither it does perfectly (by what I mean Rorqual entering warp instantaneously after the MWD cycle ends) with 3 of them.

From what I remember this MWD 10 seconds to enter warp trick used to work better and was more reliable with the "old" Rorqual, not the one we have on Sisi right now.

EDIT: Alright, I've totally forgot about overheating the MWD Roll


New option is to agility command boost yourself. Gives aggro, but with the Rorqual most warps are long enough for that to expire.


If your area is so insecure that going into siege mode is not really an option, you can do wonderful things fitting a Higgs Anchor rig and boosting while aligned.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Trevize Demerzel
#375 - 2016-10-27 15:34:33 UTC
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
Very happy with the proposed changes. On test I do see an area of concern however.

The new mining drones are painfully slow, thus making the mining yields MUCH less then what has been stated.




Another tidbit.. Since the mining drones are so incredibly slow... they get nuked almost instantly when a dread pops in your mining anom.


For that matter they are easily killed by normal rats in an anom as well, before you can pull them in.


-

Frances Voltaire
Eldorado Exhumers
Fractions of PI
#376 - 2016-10-27 16:24:03 UTC
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
Very happy with the proposed changes. On test I do see an area of concern however.

The new mining drones are painfully slow, thus making the mining yields MUCH less then what has been stated.




Another tidbit.. Since the mining drones are so incredibly slow... they get nuked almost instantly when a dread pops in your mining anom.


For that matter they are easily killed by normal rats in an anom as well, before you can pull them in.



Rorqual can lock 7targets and has long range remote shield rep bonuses. You can pre-lock all your 5 excavators and rep those under fire until they return. You can still have a rock targeted and lock up a rat while you recall excavators. This solves the Rat problem. For those rare capital rats, we will all likely loose an excavator or two. Pretty much cost of doing business.
Erasmus Grant
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#377 - 2016-10-27 21:09:47 UTC
Please allow the Rorqual to use all isotope types instead of just Oxygen.
Kenneth Fritz
DND Industries
#378 - 2016-10-27 23:36:16 UTC
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Please allow the Rorqual to use all isotope types instead of just Oxygen.



While I understand your plight, the Rorqual was designed by ORE whose ship technology is based on Gallente designs. Thus it uses oxygen isotopes. Just because you want to use it as a poor man's jump freighter doesn't constitute changing it to a one size fits all isotope user.

Who's your end of the world buddy?

Erasmus Grant
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#379 - 2016-10-28 00:47:28 UTC
Kenneth Fritz wrote:
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Please allow the Rorqual to use all isotope types instead of just Oxygen.



While I understand your plight, the Rorqual was designed by ORE whose ship technology is based on Gallente designs. Thus it uses oxygen isotopes. Just because you want to use it as a poor man's jump freighter doesn't constitute changing it to a one size fits all isotope user.



Sorry mate not as poor as you think. I own a JF. So do not assume ****.
Kenneth Fritz
DND Industries
#380 - 2016-10-28 14:10:49 UTC
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Kenneth Fritz wrote:
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Please allow the Rorqual to use all isotope types instead of just Oxygen.



While I understand your plight, the Rorqual was designed by ORE whose ship technology is based on Gallente designs. Thus it uses oxygen isotopes. Just because you want to use it as a poor man's jump freighter doesn't constitute changing it to a one size fits all isotope user.



Sorry mate not as poor as you think. I own a JF. So do not assume ****.


Fair enough. It was simply the reason I hear most when someone complains about having to import oxygen isotopes because it isn't found in the space they live. While dangerous I would try wormholes with an Endurance or skiff (if your feeling lucky).

Who's your end of the world buddy?