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[November] Rorqual Changes

First post First post First post
Author
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#401 - 2016-11-01 13:36:29 UTC
I, for one, have bought a Rorqual for elite solo mining operations and await the dankest ISK to pour into my wallet as I crash the market for minerals into the sea of tears on this thread. *bathes in sea of tears* *sails yacht through sea of tears* *yacht has banner on back saying WHERE IS YOUR RORQUAL PEASANTS*
Ded Akara
Doomheim
#402 - 2016-11-01 17:07:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ded Akara
Trinkets friend wrote:
I, for one, have bought a Rorqual for elite solo mining operations and await the dankest ISK to pour into my wallet as I crash the market for minerals into the sea of tears on this thread. *bathes in sea of tears* *sails yacht through sea of tears* *yacht has banner on back saying WHERE IS YOUR RORQUAL PEASANTS*


By all means, let the market crash. If they're intent on replacing the rorqual with this new freak ship they can't blame the players.
Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#403 - 2016-11-01 22:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Zhul Chembull wrote:


You must not fly the same null sec I do. I have never seen a ping and a fleet able to respond in 7.5 minutes. Hell 15 minutes if your alliance is on point and closer to half an hour otherwise. I see some silly posts sometimes. You want to kill one, learn some organization skills and have the appropriate ships. It is a single ship and it will go down easily rest assured. We can have this discussion two weeks after these changes go into effect, there will be lots of rorqual losses rest assured.


As a Bombers Bar whaling FC I have been whaling in nullsec for years now. And every single region, not a few ones. I bet my sample space is much broader than your experience, which is probably limited to being in a few alliances.

If your alliance not capable or you own vast spaces with nobody in it then sure, by all means you can't form something in 15 minutes. But some are more vigilant in protecting their space. If you tackle anything in Delve, you will get 20 smartbombing titans on you.

Here we tackle a Wyvern in Cobalt Edge and the first FAX logs in upon the ping lands under 4 minutes (with more to follow): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84FOs7CwXGc

And don't think its just because its a super. People come to aid to their carriers too.

And by all means I don't say there won't be Rorqual losses. Small, unorganized groups with nobody that can help a tackled Rorqual around will lose them.

I say organized people will never lose a Rorqual. For example there will never be a Rorq loss in Delve. But I believe even they are not entitled to %100 safe ratting. Now if PANIC had a shorter duration maybe this would increase the risk of organized groups to the appropriate level. Meanwhile it wouldn't change anything for the unorganized group.

Right now it is like you take a good risk if you are an unorganized by corp mining with a Rorqual, and approx. zero risk if you are an organized corp. I would have loved it to be changed so you at least take SOME risk in an organized corp.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#404 - 2016-11-01 22:50:45 UTC
Jean-Luc II wrote:
So, now we have all the pirates who are spending their time going around ganking poor defenseless miners complaining that it's not going to be so easy. When without these hard working miners there would be no ships to fly in the 1st place. Respect is due!

Meanwhile a whole bunch of miners who will be giving up using their Rorquals altogether as it will be too easy to gank them and the risks are way to high... The cost of a Rorqual and the drones is huge even taking the insurance into consideration.



1) Nobody mines so "people of New Eden can enjoy ships". They mine for profit. I lol everything I see this miner self righteousness.

2) Probably the ratio of fair fights in Eve is below %1. Can you get over this fact and stop with the "poor defenseless miners" rhetoric. Also PANIC is designed so you can actually defend your mining group with PvP ships now.

3) Eve is a risk reward based game and getting ganked is the risk you take for better reward. You can go back to hisec if you don't want fighting unwanted fights or having to defend yourself.

4) The PANIC button right is designed such that its gonna be too hard or impossible to kill major nullsec groups' Rorquals. It positively discriminates them with too much safety, to the extent it might be way less profitable to mine as a solo/small group anymore. This is bad for miner population too, as much as it is bad for people who hunt Rorquals.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

TomyLobo
Perkone
Caldari State
#405 - 2016-11-01 23:57:54 UTC
Jean-Luc II wrote:
So, now we have all the pirates who are spending their time going around ganking poor defenseless miners complaining that it's not going to be so easy. When without these hard working miners there would be no ships to fly in the 1st place. Respect is due!

Meanwhile a whole bunch of miners who will be giving up using their Rorquals altogether as it will be too easy to gank them and the risks are way to high... The cost of a Rorqual and the drones is huge even taking the insurance into consideration.


Everyone is scared of a rorqual that can fight back.
TomyLobo
Perkone
Caldari State
#406 - 2016-11-02 00:02:50 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Jean-Luc II wrote:
So, now we have all the pirates who are spending their time going around ganking poor defenseless miners complaining that it's not going to be so easy. When without these hard working miners there would be no ships to fly in the 1st place. Respect is due!

Meanwhile a whole bunch of miners who will be giving up using their Rorquals altogether as it will be too easy to gank them and the risks are way to high... The cost of a Rorqual and the drones is huge even taking the insurance into consideration.



1) Nobody mines so "people of New Eden can enjoy ships". They mine for profit. I lol everything I see this miner self righteousness.

2) Probably the ratio of fair fights in Eve is below %1. Can you get over this fact and stop with the "poor defenseless miners" rhetoric. Also PANIC is designed so you can actually defend your mining group with PvP ships now.

3) Eve is a risk reward based game and getting ganked is the risk you take for better reward. You can go back to hisec if you don't want fighting unwanted fights or having to defend yourself.

4) The PANIC button right is designed such that its gonna be too hard or impossible to kill major nullsec groups' Rorquals. It positively discriminates them with too much safety, to the extent it might be way less profitable to mine as a solo/small group anymore. This is bad for miner population too, as much as it is bad for people who hunt Rorquals.

I actually like the idea of would be gankers getting caught with their pants down and losing their ships. Maybe more people will man up and roam with better fleet comps instead of the usual T3D/Frig cancer.
Dan Jintao
What Could Go Wrong
Zero Credibility.
#407 - 2016-11-02 00:56:29 UTC
These changes are amazing. I look forward to using Rorqual skills for the first time ever. Instead of being a pos ornament, they will not actually generate content, for miners and for pvpers. Great work CCP. They may be a bit OP as shield rep/boost ships atm, but remains to be seen.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#408 - 2016-11-02 11:45:12 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:


I say organized people will never lose a Rorqual. For example there will never be a Rorq loss in Delve.


You must not know Goons very well.

I admit that they are very well-organized, but they also have their window-lickers who will find a way to lose an invulnerable ship.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#409 - 2016-11-02 11:47:04 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Jean-Luc II wrote:
So, now we have all the pirates who are spending their time going around ganking poor defenseless miners complaining that it's not going to be so easy. When without these hard working miners there would be no ships to fly in the 1st place. Respect is due!

Meanwhile a whole bunch of miners who will be giving up using their Rorquals altogether as it will be too easy to gank them and the risks are way to high... The cost of a Rorqual and the drones is huge even taking the insurance into consideration.



1) Nobody mines so "people of New Eden can enjoy ships". They mine for profit. I lol everything I see this miner self righteousness.

2) Probably the ratio of fair fights in Eve is below %1. Can you get over this fact and stop with the "poor defenseless miners" rhetoric. Also PANIC is designed so you can actually defend your mining group with PvP ships now.

3) Eve is a risk reward based game and getting ganked is the risk you take for better reward. You can go back to hisec if you don't want fighting unwanted fights or having to defend yourself.

4) The PANIC button right is designed such that its gonna be too hard or impossible to kill major nullsec groups' Rorquals. It positively discriminates them with too much safety, to the extent it might be way less profitable to mine as a solo/small group anymore. This is bad for miner population too, as much as it is bad for people who hunt Rorquals.


These are all very valid points. The only thing I take issue with is I think that even in High Sec you have to fight unwanted fights and defend yourself.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Cade Windstalker
#410 - 2016-11-02 14:03:02 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
As a Bombers Bar whaling FC I have been whaling in nullsec for years now. And every single region, not a few ones. I bet my sample space is much broader than your experience, which is probably limited to being in a few alliances.

If your alliance not capable or you own vast spaces with nobody in it then sure, by all means you can't form something in 15 minutes. But some are more vigilant in protecting their space. If you tackle anything in Delve, you will get 20 smartbombing titans on you.

Here we tackle a Wyvern in Cobalt Edge and the first FAX logs in upon the ping lands under 4 minutes (with more to follow): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84FOs7CwXGc

And don't think its just because its a super. People come to aid to their carriers too.

And by all means I don't say there won't be Rorqual losses. Small, unorganized groups with nobody that can help a tackled Rorqual around will lose them.

I say organized people will never lose a Rorqual. For example there will never be a Rorq loss in Delve. But I believe even they are not entitled to %100 safe ratting. Now if PANIC had a shorter duration maybe this would increase the risk of organized groups to the appropriate level. Meanwhile it wouldn't change anything for the unorganized group.

Right now it is like you take a good risk if you are an unorganized by corp mining with a Rorqual, and approx. zero risk if you are an organized corp. I would have loved it to be changed so you at least take SOME risk in an organized corp.


Really good post, and the example especially is appreciated. Too many people post about "this one thing they saw this one time" and, especially for timing examples, rely on their perceptions of time rather than hard numbers.

I don't think it's accurate to say that an organized group will never lose a Rorqual though. They'll just lose it due to either a mistake (like someone forgetting to repair their PANIC button), a logistical failing (the guy they thought was on scout duty went to the bathroom, or the bridging Titan couldn't log in), or just raw stupid in its innumerable forms.

It's no more fair to say that no one who is remotely good will lose a Rorqual than it is to say that no one who is remotely good will lose a ratting Carrier, and zKill is *full* of examples of by all accounts good players who have lost ratting carriers (or Supers, or Titans...) for one reason or another.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#411 - 2016-11-02 15:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Ok, so I've had a little playtime on SISI with the rorq, and while it's definitely unique and interesting compared to what was done before, the experience was heavily hampered by numerous annoying little details and was overall a difficult experience to play with. It has plenty of potential, and I really am starting to clear away some doubts I had about it before.

It definitely chews through roids pretty well (although the skills were really confusing compared to what the devblog said before). Took about 28-30 minutes to fill the ore gold (without compression) in a regular asteroid belt (-0.2 sec status), this was using lvl III mining drone spec skills and 2 T2 capital mining drone rigs (I giggled a little when I saw this was an option).

. Pretty good, but normal asteroids were often smaller than the mining amount of individual drones, which (when considering 5x drones and the survey scanner doesn't tell you volume) was practically impossible for me to calculate to be of any benefit. Also another REALLY annoying bug/feature was the way drones and asteroids interacted in their displayed states. Whenever a drone would return to drop its load, it show in the drone window as "returning" and its little tag would dissapear from the asteroid. This makes sense, until you have to decide whether or not that asteroid is being mined (recall the over-mining issue) or is in fact a dead asteroid. It doesn't dissapear until the ore is dropped into your hold for some reason. Not a hugely fundamental issue, but it gets really annoying when you have to juggle multiple asteroids of unknown statuses with only 7 targets available (and it's hella annoying when you have to drop all asteroids in order to fend of some rats).

Ice mining was a much easier experience and pretty much similar in comparison to ice mining in a barge. Low input required from the user as compared to the variables of asteroids. However, what was really weird to see, was that the drones spent little to no time actually mining. It was a straight line from ship to iceberg and back again, unlike with ore that took some time. I'd really like to see less mining potential so dependent on drone speed rather than anything else. And for those curious, my fit could get the drones up to 450m/s travel speed, which isn't bad in of itself, but combined with all of the other issues, really makes any attempt to calculate or plan efficiency a fruitless chore.

Also tested the tank in an optimized fit: it's pretty good, but it was a heavily specialized fit so I take that with a grain of salt. Could tank about 3-4 dreads before armor bleeding and PANIC was useful for taking a breather.

As a side note, I'll also say it feels like there is way to much utility competing for space on this ship. Way more than other ships in its field or size. Take a look at how many different modules are 'supposed' to go in the highslots and it really gives an idea of how crazy it is.
NextDarkKnight
Event Horizon Expeditionaries
The Watchmen.
#412 - 2016-11-02 17:59:26 UTC
When you hit the Panic button it should pull all the industrial ships into the ship bay and allow the miners to reship to PVP ships. Seriously how could this be missed. If the miners can defend then the rorq dies with all the ships anyway.
Jean-Luc II
Doomheim
#413 - 2016-11-03 08:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean-Luc II
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Jean-Luc II wrote:
So, now we have all the pirates who are spending their time going around ganking poor defenseless miners complaining that it's not going to be so easy. When without these hard working miners there would be no ships to fly in the 1st place. Respect is due!

Meanwhile a whole bunch of miners who will be giving up using their Rorquals altogether as it will be too easy to gank them and the risks are way to high... The cost of a Rorqual and the drones is huge even taking the insurance into consideration.



1) Nobody mines so "people of New Eden can enjoy ships". They mine for profit. I lol everything I see this miner self righteousness.

2) Probably the ratio of fair fights in Eve is below %1. Can you get over this fact and stop with the "poor defenseless miners" rhetoric. Also PANIC is designed so you can actually defend your mining group with PvP ships now.

3) Eve is a risk reward based game and getting ganked is the risk you take for better reward. You can go back to hisec if you don't want fighting unwanted fights or having to defend yourself.

4) The PANIC button right is designed such that its gonna be too hard or impossible to kill major nullsec groups' Rorquals. It positively discriminates them with too much safety, to the extent it might be way less profitable to mine as a solo/small group anymore. This is bad for miner population too, as much as it is bad for people who hunt Rorquals.


Yes we do it for the ISK for sure, and the shear excitement of course... And I'm not complaining about the pirates trying to gank miners. Mining would be really boring if we didn't have to run away and hide from time to time. But industry is where it all starts and needs to be respected. While it may be fun to actually fight back, pop a few pirates and lose some Rorquals, this is no good if the economy collapses as the prices of Ores go into a tailspin due to Muliboxing Rorquals and brave miners earning trillions per month.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#414 - 2016-11-04 03:05:02 UTC
Is everyone else getting a repair cost of 239,999,760 ISK to repair a PANIC module?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#415 - 2016-11-04 17:57:29 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
I say organized people will never lose a Rorqual. For example there will never be a Rorq loss in Delve.


If you know null so well you should know one of our dumbfuck members is probably the first to lose a Rorqual Lol (it might even be me, knock on wood).

With the current state of affairs (on SISI) only fairly large (and noticeable) fleets will be capable of taking down a Rorqual (not including hot drops). Any decent Rorq pilot will see them coming 10 jumps away and prepare accordingly. However a lot can happen in the (worst case) 5 minutes it takes for an indy core to wind down. Should the fleet reach the Rorq first and tackle it, a decent fit Rorq will be able to hold out for roughly 2 to 10 minutes before hitting the PANIC button is even needed depending on how hard the fleet is hitting. Lighting a cyno under those circumstances would bring in reinforcements, but would also force the Rorq to stay on the field for another 10 minutes, only 7,5 of which are covered by the PANIC button at most.

Hitting the PANIC button would be the very very very last thing I would do because it doesn't prevent you from being pointed and it prevents you from helping in the defense.

Ultimately I think we'll see plenty of Rorquals die, even in deep 0.0 where reinforcements are on standby.

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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#416 - 2016-11-04 19:20:17 UTC
Why isnt there a seperate feedback for changes to boosts and how we'll need to use consumables? Consumable group boosts is awful. The passive is fine on grid.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#417 - 2016-11-04 23:33:22 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Why isnt there a seperate feedback for changes to boosts and how we'll need to use consumables? Consumable group boosts is awful. The passive is fine on grid.

There is. It's under the command boost changes devblog thread.
Jonathon Silence
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#418 - 2016-11-04 23:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonathon Silence
I have been trying out things on the test server and have noticed something which has me a bit worried.

5 Run Excavator Mining Drone BPC's are available from the ORE LP store. Generally when this kind of thing happens BPO's for the item will not be seeded.

That has me very concerned. The 'Excavator' type drones are designed for the Rorqual, they are how it mines. Having this function of the Rorqual 'nerfed' so that they can only be got by running ORE missions (or running Incursions and converting LP).

Can CCP please confirm if this is going to the ONLY way to get Excavator Drones (via the LP BPC's) or if this is an additional way of getting them if you do not want a BPO?

If this is an additional way then all good and PLEASE ignore the rest of the Post, but this this is the only way then that is, well to put it mildly, B******t. To force players to run out to 0.0 (ORE space) to get a 5 Run BPC for a required Piece of equipment is not on.

You do not force Carrier pilots to run missions to get BPC's for fighters and for the fighters to be racially limited, why are you doing this for the Rorqual?

The risk reward of having a Rorqual in the belt is based round the amount they can mine, if they can not mine this amount except by running missions/incursions to get a special piece of equipment then the risk/reward calculation fails, and people will use Orca's instead as the risk/reward from the boosts still works out.
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#419 - 2016-11-05 00:01:21 UTC
Jonathon Silence wrote:
I have been trying out things on the test server and have noticed something which has me a bit worried.

5 Run Excavator Mining Drone BPC's are available from the ORE LP store. Generally when this kind of thing happens BPO's for the item will not be seeded.

That has me very concerned. The 'Excavator' type drones are designed for the Rorqual, they are how it mines. Having this function of the Rorqual 'nerfed' so that they can only be got by running ORE missions (or running Incursions and converting LP).

Can CCP please confirm if this is going to the ONLY way to get Excavator Drones (via the LP BPC's) or if this is an additional way of getting them if you do not want a BPO?

If this is an additional way then all good and PLEASE ignore the rest of the Post, but this this is the only way then that is, well to put it mildly, B******t. To force players to run out to 0.0 (ORE space) to get a 5 Run BPC for a required Piece of equipment is not on.

You do not force Carrier pilots to run missions to get BPC's for fighters and for the fighters to be racially limited, why are you doing this for the Rorqual?

The risk reward of having a Rorqual in the belt is based round the amount they can mine, if they can not mine this amount except by running missions/incursions to get a special piece of equipment then the risk/reward calculation fails, and people will use Orca's instead as the risk/reward from the boosts still works out.

Buy them from someone who does that sort of thing. I don't see any carrier pilots complaining about having to build their own fighters, because they don't.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#420 - 2016-11-05 02:22:14 UTC
Jonathon Silence wrote:
I have been trying out things on the test server and have noticed something which has me a bit worried.

5 Run Excavator Mining Drone BPC's are available from the ORE LP store. Generally when this kind of thing happens BPO's for the item will not be seeded.

That has me very concerned. The 'Excavator' type drones are designed for the Rorqual, they are how it mines. Having this function of the Rorqual 'nerfed' so that they can only be got by running ORE missions (or running Incursions and converting LP).

Can CCP please confirm if this is going to the ONLY way to get Excavator Drones (via the LP BPC's) or if this is an additional way of getting them if you do not want a BPO?

If this is an additional way then all good and PLEASE ignore the rest of the Post, but this this is the only way then that is, well to put it mildly, B******t. To force players to run out to 0.0 (ORE space) to get a 5 Run BPC for a required Piece of equipment is not on.

You do not force Carrier pilots to run missions to get BPC's for fighters and for the fighters to be racially limited, why are you doing this for the Rorqual?

The risk reward of having a Rorqual in the belt is based round the amount they can mine, if they can not mine this amount except by running missions/incursions to get a special piece of equipment then the risk/reward calculation fails, and people will use Orca's instead as the risk/reward from the boosts still works out.


You mean like how the BPO for every ORE ship ever is only initially available in Outer Ring? Yeah that's such a big problem in the availability of mining barges Roll

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