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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#581 - 2016-10-18 13:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
There is no place in New Eden for small groups and individual game play, we are slowly getting forced out..
Yes there is. It's called the NPC station and is still there like it always has been.

This, and if the risk/reward of the new structures is too bad, this is actually a buff to NPC production. There are no plans currently to alter the tax structure of NPC stations (as said by CCP Fozzie), which is good and takes away a lot of my concerns.

Exactly. Everyone approaches a big change from the perspective of how it will affect their activities sometimes forgetting that it will affect all their competitors the same way.

There was so much teeth-gnashing over the increase in broker fees/taxes that came with Citadel, most of it from players just looking at the current market and with the assumption it would not change and thus their operations would be no longer profitable. Well the market adjusted and market traders are making ISK as before, only now there is some additional game play around Fortizar markets that has enriched the game and provided new avenues of trading strategy.

The ECs will be the same. For many players that might mean moving to a NPC station when their POS gets shut down, but all of their rivals will be in exactly the same boat. The market will adjust to the new situation and profits will be similar, yet there will be an option there for players to get a slightly bigger piece of the pie if they band together or cut a deal with someone who owns an EC. Some will, some won't, but the game will be more interesting and strategic because of that option.

NPC stations and NPC corporations exist so small group and solo players can play the game. If you want an emergent universe with targets in it however, there does need to be incentives for players to organize and to take risks. You can choose how much risk or how much player interaction you want, but those choices come with scaling rewards. Complaining that a solo player with no assets at risk can't earn as much as a large, organized group with billions of vulnerable assets in space is a little silly.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2016-10-18 13:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Black Pedro wrote:

There was so much teeth-gnashing over the increase in broker fees/taxes that came with Citadel

That's a different story, because CCP put a penalty on everybody making trade more difficult, costly and slower, altering the system as a whole and not individual setups.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#583 - 2016-10-18 14:14:25 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

There was so much teeth-gnashing over the increase in broker fees/taxes that came with Citadel

That's a different story, because CCP put a penalty on everybody making trade more difficult, costly and slower, altering the system as a whole and not individual setups.

Same here. Everyone is losing the current POS system and being forced back into the more costly NPC stations with a new alternative to reduce those costs. The system is changing as a whole. Your competition has to deal with the rejiggering of the system exactly as you do.

The complaint that for some people, that means the NPC station is the best for them and they lose the ability to manage an player owned structure is a valid one. But from the economic perspective, all industrialists are on equal footing and if NPC stations turn out to be the best for most of them, prices will rise to cover the increased NPC fees and everyone will be in the same place. If some of them then decide to take the risk to use the new structures to grab a little more of the profit, then the others have to respond by taking some risk and doing the same (or exploding their rivals!), or keeping their safety and settling for a slightly smaller slice of the pie.

I wouldn't write-off the solo industrialist quite yet. Even now, industrialists make profits in NPC stations with insane indices like Jita. By making these structures costly to run and specialized to specific types of production, the NPC stations will be an even more competitive alternative for many industrial operations. All that is happening is that the backbone of industry is being move from solo, invulnerable, and annoying POSes, back to NPC stations where it should have been all along for solo industry. Honestly, I bet a lot of industrialists will be happy not to have to deal with the hassle of running a POS if they can get similar profits from basing out of an NPC station.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#584 - 2016-10-18 14:46:01 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
[quote=Sgt Ocker]There is no place in New Eden for small groups and individual game play, we are slowly getting forced out..
Yes there is. It's called the NPC station and is still there like it always has been.

Complaining that a solo player with no assets at risk can't earn as much as a large, organized group with billions of vulnerable assets in space is a little silly.


Well, up to now, the solo player had some assets at risk. Most would still like to put some assets at risk, but it just doesn't make much sense any longer.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#585 - 2016-10-18 15:01:37 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

There was so much teeth-gnashing over the increase in broker fees/taxes that came with Citadel

That's a different story, because CCP put a penalty on everybody making trade more difficult, costly and slower, altering the system as a whole and not individual setups.

Same here. Everyone is losing the current POS system and being forced back into the more costly NPC stations with a new alternative to reduce those costs. The system is changing as a whole. Your competition has to deal with the rejiggering of the system exactly as you do.

Personally I'm an NPC station producer, always been ... but was looking forward into the option of the new ECs, and got disappointed so far. But I'm able to continue that way and not being forced into the new structure system as with the broker fee changes.

I'm my own NPC alt.

RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#586 - 2016-10-18 15:23:27 UTC
FUEL NUMBERS ON THE TEST SERVER FOR THE 2 RESEARCH MODUELS! both the research modules cost 5 blocks each. the manufacturing service still costs 20 but im ok with this now. 30 blocks with a 25% decrease makes it around 22.5 blocks? WAY better!
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
#587 - 2016-10-18 15:31:55 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

There was so much teeth-gnashing over the increase in broker fees/taxes that came with Citadel

That's a different story, because CCP put a penalty on everybody making trade more difficult, costly and slower, altering the system as a whole and not individual setups.

Same here. Everyone is losing the current POS system and being forced back into the more costly NPC stations with a new alternative to reduce those costs. The system is changing as a whole. Your competition has to deal with the rejiggering of the system exactly as you do.

Personally I'm an NPC station producer, always been ... but was looking forward into the option of the new ECs, and got disappointed so far. But I'm able to continue that way and not being forced into the new structure system as with the broker fee changes.


Nice part is, an unrigged public Citadel or EC with manufacturing is the same as an NPC station now but you probably will pay less tax. If the rigs match what you're producing, you get as good or better than current POS production and you still don't have to own the structure. As an NPC producer also, other than potential risks from wardec/destruction, building in a public EC is either as good as NPC or better than a POS which sounds just fine to me.
Ammath
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#588 - 2016-10-18 16:09:42 UTC
Final answer on Rorqual docking in Raitaru and Azbels? And Caps in General in Azbels? Dev Blog says one thing... sisi says another...

??
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#589 - 2016-10-18 16:17:37 UTC
Ammath wrote:
Final answer on Rorqual docking in Raitaru and Azbels? And Caps in General in Azbels? Dev Blog says one thing... sisi says another...

??


I THINK they must indeed have changed it so that capitals are allowed docking in the azbel. cause people went mad that they cant use the rorqual in the azbel if caps cant dock in it. altough the sotiyo still wont allow super capitals to dock in it. and lets be honest. if you truly can afford building super capitals then you should probably have a keepstar to store them in?
Ammath
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#590 - 2016-10-18 16:57:14 UTC
RainReaper wrote:
Ammath wrote:
Final answer on Rorqual docking in Raitaru and Azbels? And Caps in General in Azbels? Dev Blog says one thing... sisi says another...

??


I THINK they must indeed have changed it so that capitals are allowed docking in the azbel. cause people went mad that they cant use the rorqual in the azbel if caps cant dock in it. altough the sotiyo still wont allow super capitals to dock in it. and lets be honest. if you truly can afford building super capitals then you should probably have a keepstar to store them in?


I get the supercap restriction wanting to make supercap bases more rare. But Caps should be allowed docking in Azbels its just derpy not to.

But any update on Rorquals in Astrahus / Raitaru ?
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#591 - 2016-10-18 17:06:39 UTC
Ammath wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Ammath wrote:
Final answer on Rorqual docking in Raitaru and Azbels? And Caps in General in Azbels? Dev Blog says one thing... sisi says another...

??


I THINK they must indeed have changed it so that capitals are allowed docking in the azbel. cause people went mad that they cant use the rorqual in the azbel if caps cant dock in it. altough the sotiyo still wont allow super capitals to dock in it. and lets be honest. if you truly can afford building super capitals then you should probably have a keepstar to store them in?


I get the supercap restriction wanting to make supercap bases more rare. But Caps should be allowed docking in Azbels its just derpy not to.

But any update on Rorquals in Astrahus / Raitaru ?


Raitaru is sub caps and freighter/orcas only. same as with astrahus
Setsuko Shintaro
Caldari Manufacturing and Design
#592 - 2016-10-18 17:43:17 UTC
I haven't been on SISI to check, but with a Standup Capital Shipyard, can I build everything but supercaps and boosters or do I need both the manufacturing plant and the capital shipyard?
Ammath
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#593 - 2016-10-18 17:48:23 UTC
Setsuko Shintaro wrote:
I haven't been on SISI to check, but with a Standup Capital Shipyard, can I build everything but supercaps and boosters or do I need both the manufacturing plant and the capital shipyard?


To make components you will need MFG plant
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#594 - 2016-10-18 18:57:39 UTC
I will say this. with the 2 Research services both costing 5 fuel blocks every hour and then the manufacturing service costing 20 blocks, (for a total of 30 blocks every hour or 22.5 blocks every hour when used in an engineering complex) it will be a LOT more affordable for small guys to run a complex, im glad they did that lol.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#595 - 2016-10-18 21:13:01 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

There was so much teeth-gnashing over the increase in broker fees/taxes that came with Citadel

That's a different story, because CCP put a penalty on everybody making trade more difficult, costly and slower, altering the system as a whole and not individual setups.

Same here. Everyone is losing the current POS system and being forced back into the more costly NPC stations with a new alternative to reduce those costs. The system is changing as a whole. Your competition has to deal with the rejiggering of the system exactly as you do.

Personally I'm an NPC station producer, always been ... but was looking forward into the option of the new ECs, and got disappointed so far. But I'm able to continue that way and not being forced into the new structure system as with the broker fee changes.


Nice part is, an unrigged public Citadel or EC with manufacturing is the same as an NPC station now but you probably will pay less tax. If the rigs match what you're producing, you get as good or better than current POS production and you still don't have to own the structure. As an NPC producer also, other than potential risks from wardec/destruction, building in a public EC is either as good as NPC or better than a POS which sounds just fine to me.

The 10% NPC tax is not an issue ... the question is, will there be trustable public ECs in low index systems, which keep the index low? I have my doubts ...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#596 - 2016-10-18 21:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
RainReaper wrote:
Ammath wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Ammath wrote:
Final answer on Rorqual docking in Raitaru and Azbels? And Caps in General in Azbels? Dev Blog says one thing... sisi says another...

??


I THINK they must indeed have changed it so that capitals are allowed docking in the azbel. cause people went mad that they cant use the rorqual in the azbel if caps cant dock in it. altough the sotiyo still wont allow super capitals to dock in it. and lets be honest. if you truly can afford building super capitals then you should probably have a keepstar to store them in?


I get the supercap restriction wanting to make supercap bases more rare. But Caps should be allowed docking in Azbels its just derpy not to.

But any update on Rorquals in Astrahus / Raitaru ?


Raitaru is sub caps and freighter/orcas only. same as with astrahus

Rain is right, you'll need to spend around 100 bil to dock your Rorqual as the Xlarge is the only one they can dock in.
From the Dev blog
Quote:
At current market prices this represents a build cost of approximately 30 billion ISK (price is subject to capsuleer market fluctuations).
As in the recent past with Citadels, Devs underestimate build prices by around 50%, don't include BPC costs, or fitting costs - so your looking at around 60 bil just to buy your Xlarge (including bpc, which is a major part of the *build* cost), then you will need to fit it out.

NB; All this may be wrong - You may or may not be able to dock your Rorqual in a medium EC - Devs never have been very good at communicating when things change...

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#597 - 2016-10-18 21:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: RainReaper
I THINK they must indeed have changed it so that capitals are allowed docking in the azbel. cause people went mad that they cant use the rorqual in the azbel if caps cant dock in it. altough the sotiyo still wont allow super capitals to dock in it. and lets be honest. if you truly can afford building super capitals then you should probably have a keepstar to store them in?[/quote]

I get the supercap restriction wanting to make supercap bases more rare. But Caps should be allowed docking in Azbels its just derpy not to.

But any update on Rorquals in Astrahus / Raitaru ?
[/quote]

Raitaru is sub caps and freighter/orcas only. same as with astrahus[/quote]
Rain is right, you'll need to spend around 100 bil to dock your Rorqual as the Xlarge is the only one they can dock in.
From the Dev blog
Quote:
At current market prices this represents a build cost of approximately 30 billion ISK (price is subject to capsuleer market fluctuations).
As in the recent past with Citadels, Devs underestimate build prices by around 50%, don't include BPC costs, or fitting costs - so your looking at around 60 bil just to buy your Xlarge (including bpc, which is a major part of the *build* cost), then you will need to fit it out.

[/quote]

after having seen the thigns geting active in the test server and also having seen the new services and their fuel costs i cant say that the dev blog is 100% accurate anymore. on the test server it says in the Azbels desc that all sub caps AND capitals can dock att it. the sotiyo also says all subcaps and capitals. but not supers. so regular caps can now aperantly dock att the regular large 5b azbel
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#598 - 2016-10-18 22:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
RainReaper wrote:
I THINK they must indeed have changed it so that capitals are allowed docking in the azbel. cause people went mad that they cant use the rorqual in the azbel if caps cant dock in it. altough the sotiyo still wont allow super capitals to dock in it. and lets be honest. if you truly can afford building super capitals then you should probably have a keepstar to store them in?


I get the supercap restriction wanting to make supercap bases more rare. But Caps should be allowed docking in Azbels its just derpy not to.

But any update on Rorquals in Astrahus / Raitaru ?
[/quote]

Raitaru is sub caps and freighter/orcas only. same as with astrahus[/quote]
Rain is right, you'll need to spend around 100 bil to dock your Rorqual as the Xlarge is the only one they can dock in.
From the Dev blog
Quote:
At current market prices this represents a build cost of approximately 30 billion ISK (price is subject to capsuleer market fluctuations).
As in the recent past with Citadels, Devs underestimate build prices by around 50%, don't include BPC costs, or fitting costs - so your looking at around 60 bil just to buy your Xlarge (including bpc, which is a major part of the *build* cost), then you will need to fit it out.

[/quote]

after having seen the thigns geting active in the test server and also having seen the new services and their fuel costs i cant say that the dev blog is 100% accurate anymore. on the test server it says in the Azbels desc that all sub caps AND capitals can dock att it. the sotiyo also says all subcaps and capitals. but not supers. so regular caps can now aperantly dock att the regular large 5b azbel[/quote]

-- - -- - -- - -- - --
The pity is, Devs don't think enough of players to keep them informed of changes.
If in fact you will be able to use the medium for the Rorqual and standard caps, it becomes a big game changer - In lowsec and nulsec, these things are now a little easier to defend.

I still believe, going by recent history - The 5 bil medium will be around 8 to 10 bil, once you allow for Devs always underestimating costs, then add BPC cost to it.
A medium Citadel was only going to cost 700 mil? And are still around 1.2 - EC's will be no different, if you double Devs estimated price you'll be close to build cost.

Build price for the Xlarge is prohibitive for all but the largest groups and will likely only be built for supercap production..

But all this s exactly as Devs intend - They obviously want the big groups / rich players to prosper, while everyone else just plods along. Designing affordable structures for those of us who don't want to belong to mega groups just doesn't seem to be something the current dev teams are capable of, they "presume" everyone is rich.

I actually hope Devs have got this all wright - The last thing Eve needs is bluedonuts forming everywhere again, which is likely when costs and asset safety start to blow out.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#599 - 2016-10-18 22:25:17 UTC
The medium Raitaru is still locked to sub caps and orcas/freighters. its the LARGE azbel that can now dock capitals.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#600 - 2016-10-18 22:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
RainReaper wrote:


after having seen the thigns geting active in the test server and also having seen the new services and their fuel costs i cant say that the dev blog is 100% accurate anymore. on the test server it says in the Azbels desc that all sub caps AND capitals can dock att it. the sotiyo also says all subcaps and capitals. but not supers. so regular caps can now aperantly dock att the regular large 5b azbel


You have seen the new service modules on SiSi? Where the heck has CCP put them, I'm searching and can't find them.