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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#521 - 2016-10-14 16:30:10 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
People sell POSes all the time, both anchored and packaged, what are you talking about?

Honest question - how?

You sell them inside the corp or use a third party to secure the deal. You should probably see more of the EVE sandbox, it's not as restrictive as you seem to think.

Yes, but when I leave the corp - the POS will not follow me. Or should I stick to some random corp for the rest of it?

Neither does an EC if you leave corp.

That's one reason why I advocate an S-sized personal industrial structure range to fill in that gap.

But if you do want to take on an anchored POS and you don't want the corp it's in, the only safe solution would be the third party, but I've known people to exchange mining and WH moons by every bizarre arrangement imaginable.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#522 - 2016-10-14 16:40:46 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
I'll make use of whatever CCP ends up giving me, I will adapt and overcome as always. That acceptance of reality doesn't prevent me from desiring further improvement. Given that this feature is still in development I don't see why we should have to wait years for that improvement, rather than iterating this feature to a better state now.

So, could you sum up your suggestions?

As for me:
1. Rorqual should be docking in a large EC. (Quite obvious and easy fix.)
2. [In]vulnerability mechanics is really bad. POS or even current sov are way better. Hell, even the POCO is better.
3. I agree that rigs might be a little bit too inflexible. They better develop convenient real estate market really soon after this release.

Bad Bobby wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Yes, but when I leave the corp - the POS will not follow me. Or should I stick to some random corp for the rest of it?
Neither does an EC if you leave corp.

With EC or citadel, you can transfer ownership to another corp.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#523 - 2016-10-14 17:04:09 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
I'll make use of whatever CCP ends up giving me, I will adapt and overcome as always. That acceptance of reality doesn't prevent me from desiring further improvement. Given that this feature is still in development I don't see why we should have to wait years for that improvement, rather than iterating this feature to a better state now.

So, could you sum up your suggestions?

I already have, two pages back.

Skia Aumer wrote:
As for me:
1. Rorqual should be docking in a large EC. (Quite obvious and easy fix.)
2. [In]vulnerability mechanics is really bad. POS or even current sov are way better. Hell, even the POCO is better.
3. I agree that rigs might be a little bit too inflexible. They better develop convenient real estate market really soon after this release.

The Rorq should be treated like any other capital, so any structure that lets a capital dock should let a Rorq dock. The rules should be consistent between Citadel and EC.

The invulnerability mechanic isn't the worst thing in the world, the windows need to be smaller for an EC, I'd have no big problem with them being the same as Citadels but anything less than the current plan would be an improvement. I wouldn't even have a big issue with the windows being as they are by default but allowing a non-sov only bonus, rig, service or module that reduces them down to a more manageable level. There is no need for HS facilities in policed space to be so massively vulnerable without any means of reducing the window. It's not like a slightly smaller window makes them impossible to attack, Citadels prove that, so there isn't really a good reason to discourage HS EC use through excessive vulnerability and the perceived or actual defensive workload increase that comes with that. I also don't see why LS should get such a raw deal on vulnerability when compared to much safer Null space.

Rigs are too inflexible, there should be half as many with the features of various planned rigs combined together to reduce the total number.

The fuel cost is too high.

There should be industrial structures that support players that are not yet ready for or do not desire something as big as an EC/Citadel. These structures should be useable for individuals only and be tied to the player, not a corp.

Skia Aumer wrote:
With EC or citadel, you can transfer ownership to another corp.

Once you are in a corp again, yes. That's what I was saying, it doesn't follow you out of corp, it's a corp thing. That's why an S-sized personal industry structure range would fill a valid gap.

A POS can be made to follow you too, but the mechanics are different and more sandboxy. I fully favor and support the clearly smoother mechanics for trade that ECs and Citadels have, but players have been getting around the lack of that functionality up until now, so it's not like this is a totally new capability.
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#524 - 2016-10-14 18:05:43 UTC
After talking to CCP habakuk on sisi it seems like we get to test the new complexes on monday. as long as tings work out lol.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#525 - 2016-10-14 18:20:09 UTC
RainReaper wrote:
After talking to CCP habakuk on sisi it seems like we get to test the new complexes on monday. as long as tings work out lol.


Well, that's good news! After some testing it should become clearer how good or how horrible the new structures are.
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#526 - 2016-10-14 22:23:17 UTC
Obil Que wrote:


Or...

for the last part

CCP introduces Engineerig Complexes to correct the imbalanced cost/benefit ratio of the POS which currently provides enormous benefit in a single structure for minimal cost relative to that benefit. Players now have choices to make other than which low index system to drop the stick which include the option to use common structures or go it alone with the corresponding risks.

There is nothing about this that forces anyone to congregate into fewer and fewer systems. All the POS owners in a given system could band together and create a single EC to provide higher bonuses, lower taxes, and not change the system index one bit.

If anything, the current system, with its cheap, easily moved, wardec avoiding and strongly beneficial structures has artificially influenced the spread of industry by not providing any real choice or consequence. By adding a wider risk/reward balance, CCP is adding enough variables into the equation to actually realize the intent of the index system.



I'm not someone who has a problem with the costs. Asset safety in HS mean the risk there is probably about the same - where before you lost whatever was stored, plus bpos, etc in jobs, you now lose just the expensive structure. I think that's ok.

I'm certainly not using the language of "forced" - but I see what you mean about pilots now having to make a choice, but that brings it all back to my other (much earlier) post about how this scales, Medium, to Large, to X-L ECs. It seems there's no evident operating cost benefit to running a niche operation.

Certainly thought provoking. I'm looking forward to Fozzie's follow up.

/JTK
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#527 - 2016-10-15 01:24:24 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
People sell POSes all the time, both anchored and packaged, what are you talking about?

Honest question - how?

You sell them inside the corp or use a third party to secure the deal. You should probably see more of the EVE sandbox, it's not as restrictive as you seem to think.

Yes, but when I leave the corp - the POS will not follow me. Or should I stick to some random corp for the rest of it?

Neither does an EC if you leave corp.

That's one reason why I advocate an S-sized personal industrial structure range to fill in that gap.

But if you do want to take on an anchored POS and you don't want the corp it's in, the only safe solution would be the third party, but I've known people to exchange mining and WH moons by every bizarre arrangement imaginable.

These new Structures (all of them not just EC's) are designed to discourage solo play. While something suitable for a solo or even a small group just starting out would be nice (and is probably needed), It just isn't part of CCP's plan.

As you said - you will adapt and use what is available. It is a matter of "adapt" or do something else.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#528 - 2016-10-15 02:00:09 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:

Once they're up to a certain level, sure. But the smaller industrialist, which includes the much talked about "new player", doesn't actually have access to all of those options without first making major choices about their path in the game that they may not be ready for at the time. The problem is that the new industrial structures are pitched somewhat high and there isn't a similar variety of choice and support for varied playstyles at the lower level.


Ah yes, "Think of the newbies!". I know that song. I hear it often. Usually performed by experienced players, quoting suggestions that favor their personal play style more than an actual new player.

Let us have an honest discussion of the new player and a small scale industrialist. To start with, we will need to establish some baselines and definitions.

Can we agree that a "new player" would be someone with Mass production 4, having a total of 5 lines to work with, and limited funds?
Can we further agree that a solo small scale industrialist would be a single account producer with a maximum of 30 lines?

Now the major point of contention is structure setup and operational cost. We can agree that the most desirable setup being quoted for "the new guy" will be a small tower. This has an operational cost of 200,000 ISK per hour, in addition to the up front cost.

What is the upfront cost of a small tower? No, not the cost of the stick. Including the necessary modules to store and produce goods, as well as defensive structures to deter people poking at it when you are offline. Since versatility of the starbase is being emphasized, let us allow for production of everything subcapital for the small guy. That's what, 1 Billion ISK? We can cut more of a break to the newbie, call it 400-500 mil?.

But that is not the entirety of startup costs. That is just the facility. We now need to get a baseline of BPO's. These have a cost. As do the materials to enter production. Can we get an example here of something that a new player can build on 5 lines that will net a profit per hour, that after fuel costs, will exceed the profit per hour of building the same thing in a station? Lets call it at a 1.0 industry index. Does that sound reasonable? What is the startup cost of said BPO's and materials for a 24 hour run? How long does it take to pay off the blueprints and structure investment?

With that, we can increase the volume of the same product by a factor of 6 to get an idea of a small solo guy.

That is the now. What about the future?

This is where you run a comparison of manufacturing the same thing, at say a 4.0 index with a 50% tax rate at a public Raitaru with T2 rigs vs station at 1.0. Note there is no fuel cost. Does this leave the new guy with more or less profit? How long does it take to pay off the blueprint investment? Note there is no structure investment here.

Then we have your own structure. What is the fitted cost of a T1 rigged Raitaru? Hull and rigs about 1 Billion, plus fittings. Will the service modules and weapons really add up to that much more than a full tower? Let us presume the same 4.0 index. The taxes are down to 0, replaced instead by a fuel cost of 600,000 isk per hour. Assuming no external revenue from the structure and a relatively high index, where does this leave our producer with poor man rigs? Does he make more than in a station? Does he make more than using public? How long to pay off the cumulative investment?

Once we have some real numbers, we can have a real discussion of if and how good or bad this is for the new guy.


I can't follow this example through, because I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would make sufficient income on 5 lines. Not without an up front investment that eclipses the cost difference between a fully functional tower and a T1 rigged Raitaru. I don't exactly feel like researching the topic that extensively.

After all, I got shot down on producing a T1 cruiser as being too expensive with a 100? mil blueprint and 100-200 mil in materials per line per day. Expecting a new player to buy and haul 500 mil to one Bil in minerals a day does seem a little excessive. It's more significant than the cost of the tower itself. He is also looking at a profit of 900,000 isk per hour in his tower, per line, at a 1.16 index. Is going from 4,300,000 per hour to 3,900,000 over a tripled fuel cost going to kill him, ignoring the increased production benefits? Note that tripling the fuel cost requires running TWO services - he does not actually need to install and run research and invention services.

Running that job at a 1.16 index in a station puts him at around 580,000 per hour. In a 4.0 index EC with 50% tax puts him at 930,000. This is not only 50% more profit than station production in a 1.16 system. It is more income than his small pos in a 1.16 system, while producing in one of the most congested systems only 4 jumps from Jita, with absolutely minimal upfront cost.

"But the poor little guy..."
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#529 - 2016-10-15 04:17:03 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:

Once they're up to a certain level, sure. But the smaller industrialist, which includes the much talked about "new player", doesn't actually have access to all of those options without first making major choices about their path in the game that they may not be ready for at the time. The problem is that the new industrial structures are pitched somewhat high and there isn't a similar variety of choice and support for varied playstyles at the lower level.


Ah yes, "Think of the newbies!". I know that song. I hear it often. Usually performed by experienced players, quoting suggestions that favor their personal play style more than an actual new player.
I made it pretty clear in my posting that I'm as veteran an industrialist as you'll find and my concern here is not for my own needs, but for the needs of others and for the viability of varied playstyles. My playstyle wouldn't be helped one bit by any of the iterations I suggest, in fact the proposed system, being primarily to the benefit of groups and larger industrialists is very much to my benefit as it stands.

Vald Tegor wrote:
Let us have an honest discussion of the new player and a small scale industrialist. To start with, we will need to establish some baselines and definitions.

Can we agree that a "new player" would be someone with Mass production 4, having a total of 5 lines to work with, and limited funds?
Can we further agree that a solo small scale industrialist would be a single account producer with a maximum of 30 lines?
I don't really see how those definitions really help, since they are symptomatic of exactly the kind of pidgeonhole thinking that leads to this kind of bad design. In any case, a single account industrialist has access to 66 lines.

Vald Tegor wrote:
Now the major point of contention is structure setup and operational cost.
Not really, because there is no structure setup or operation costs for playstyles that aren't going to be available. Sure you can complain that ECs are out of your price range, but if the EC doesn't suit your needs anyway it really doesn't matter. Ferrari's are too expensive for me to buy, but since I don't drive I don't give it much mind.

If you only develop the system for three industrial cases and only concern yourself with there being a linear progression of increased investment, risk and potential profit margin running through them, then you'll continue to neglect everyone outside of those three narrow and contrived cases.

Also when we talk about new players and smaller industrialists, my main concern is their enjoyment of the game, not really the hard numbers of their situation. Many a profitable industrialist has burned out and quit the game, so just because you make money from something doesn't make it fun, engaging and empowering in the long term. A preoccupation with spreadsheet analysis and a lack of appreciation of the human factors isn't going to help here.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#530 - 2016-10-15 04:28:06 UTC
S size industry platform would be cool to have. Sure thing!

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#531 - 2016-10-15 04:31:54 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
People sell POSes all the time, both anchored and packaged, what are you talking about?

Honest question - how?

You sell them inside the corp or use a third party to secure the deal. You should probably see more of the EVE sandbox, it's not as restrictive as you seem to think.


If you have an Alliance, you can buy / sell a corp with a tower in it, and then give Alliance access.

That's something people with just a corp would not experience I take it.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#532 - 2016-10-15 04:39:42 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
I don't really see how those definitions really help, since they are symptomatic of exactly the kind of pidgeonhole thinking that leads to this kind of bad design. In any case, a single account industrialist has access to 66 lines.

would you care to explain how you get 66 industry lines on 3 characters? Or are you attempting to roll research lines into the question also.

Also Vlad you didn't get 'told off' for using a Cruiser on one line. You got told off for attempting to use the cruiser in every single line. A small scale industrialist might very well have 1 or 2 lines of cruisers going, but not 10 & not 30.

I also am going to go back to what I said before. Alts should not be required gameplay for a profession, and that includes alts on the same account.
Vin Ral
Perkone
Caldari State
#533 - 2016-10-15 04:54:38 UTC
Apologies if this has been asked/answered already but I couldn't find it anywhere.

Is one of the engineering complex rigs going to apply an ME bonus to Booster Production? The list of rigs in the devblog has Implants listed which share a market group with boosters, so I figure it could be that one, or the ammunition rig, or neither and it will remain more efficient to manufacture boosters in a outpost with the 5% ME bonus.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#534 - 2016-10-15 04:59:18 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
I don't really see how those definitions really help, since they are symptomatic of exactly the kind of pidgeonhole thinking that leads to this kind of bad design. In any case, a single account industrialist has access to 66 lines.

would you care to explain how you get 66 industry lines on 3 characters? Or are you attempting to roll research lines into the question also.


TIL that research lines count when you're calculating the fuel costs of a structure, but should be ignored when calculating the productivity because reasons.Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#535 - 2016-10-15 05:01:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
I don't really see how those definitions really help, since they are symptomatic of exactly the kind of pidgeonhole thinking that leads to this kind of bad design. In any case, a single account industrialist has access to 66 lines.

would you care to explain how you get 66 industry lines on 3 characters? Or are you attempting to roll research lines into the question also.

Research lines were always involved in the question. I'm deliberately trying to avoid only discussing narrow bands of the industry functionality.

However I fully understand that the word "industry" within EVE has varied definitions. I personally include the entire production system in there, including mining and PI, but some will just use "industry" to refer to pure manufacturing.

I agree that alts shouldn't be required and "in theory" they are not, but since per character limits are relied on heavily for "balance" in the industry system, in practice they very much are.
Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#536 - 2016-10-15 06:48:32 UTC
I may have missed it so apologies if the question has been answered but can I confirm that if I went for the middle of the road complex I can install a market there?

This is the EXACT setup I've been looking for and at the quoted cost it would be a very worthy enterprise for my little corp.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#537 - 2016-10-15 11:58:22 UTC
Darryn Lowe wrote:
I may have missed it so apologies if the question has been answered but can I confirm that if I went for the middle of the road complex I can install a market there?

This is the EXACT setup I've been looking for and at the quoted cost it would be a very worthy enterprise for my little corp.


CCP hasn't mentioned anything about this, so the answer is probably a resounding no. You need a Citadel for that. Of course I could be wrong and maybe CCP has just forgotten to mention it, in which case you can test this out for yourself on Monday, when the ECs are supposed to be available for testing on SiSi.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#538 - 2016-10-15 14:16:14 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Darryn Lowe wrote:
I may have missed it so apologies if the question has been answered but can I confirm that if I went for the middle of the road complex I can install a market there?

This is the EXACT setup I've been looking for and at the quoted cost it would be a very worthy enterprise for my little corp.


CCP hasn't mentioned anything about this, so the answer is probably a resounding no. You need a Citadel for that. Of course I could be wrong and maybe CCP has just forgotten to mention it, in which case you can test this out for yourself on Monday, when the ECs are supposed to be available for testing on SiSi.

The service module is clearly marked as citadel-only.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#539 - 2016-10-15 14:17:55 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
Darryn Lowe wrote:
I may have missed it so apologies if the question has been answered but can I confirm that if I went for the middle of the road complex I can install a market there?

This is the EXACT setup I've been looking for and at the quoted cost it would be a very worthy enterprise for my little corp.


CCP hasn't mentioned anything about this, so the answer is probably a resounding no. You need a Citadel for that. Of course I could be wrong and maybe CCP has just forgotten to mention it, in which case you can test this out for yourself on Monday, when the ECs are supposed to be available for testing on SiSi.

The service module is clearly marked as citadel-only.


Thanks, I guess this answers his question for good. P
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#540 - 2016-10-15 14:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: RainReaper
Owen Levanth wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
Darryn Lowe wrote:
I may have missed it so apologies if the question has been answered but can I confirm that if I went for the middle of the road complex I can install a market there?

This is the EXACT setup I've been looking for and at the quoted cost it would be a very worthy enterprise for my little corp.


CCP hasn't mentioned anything about this, so the answer is probably a resounding no. You need a Citadel for that. Of course I could be wrong and maybe CCP has just forgotten to mention it, in which case you can test this out for yourself on Monday, when the ECs are supposed to be available for testing on SiSi.

The service module is clearly marked as citadel-only.


Thanks, I guess this answers his question for good. P


...on the test server the market module states fortizar keepstar (keepstar palatine) and lastly engineering complex... where did they ever state that it would be citadel only? as far as i know tis just blocked from all medium structures.