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[November] Rorqual Changes

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Author
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#301 - 2016-10-13 09:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Well the thing would be that people already drop FAX on nodes and going PANIC with a bunch of skiffs or procurers around you means you force the enemy to bring a predictable and weak as all hell set of ships to handle it. Battle barges still do a startling amount of DPS in numbers and the FAX can rep like a monster right up until it has to hit the "no fun allowed" button.

It really wouldn't be remotely healthy for that aspect of the game.


Ed: No entosis for PANIC confirmed in tweetfleet. Woopwoop
Knight Jay
Doomheim
#302 - 2016-10-13 10:49:29 UTC
It's going to be OP mark my words. and people will abuse the hell out of them.
They are neither expensive enough or crap enough at their individual roles to balance out the fact they can do all the roles of other caps at once plus have a 7min EHE
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#303 - 2016-10-13 11:31:56 UTC
Knight Jay wrote:
THIS IS WAY OP.

7min invulnerably.
2000 dps
it has 10 au jump range
triage
HUGE drone bay becasue of the capital mining drone size so can fit soooo many drone waves.
it can keep lock and mine in panic mode.

Meaning it can keep lock and entosis in panic mode.

so basically this thing is a carrier with dps of a super and a EHE of 7min


OOOO and it can mine at the rate of 10 hulks.

Clearly you mean "almost the dps of a super". Because we all know that 2,000 is "almost" 16,000. It is also more than the 3000 dps of a carrier. And we all know filling your low slots with drone amps and using ogres works oh so well in pvp combat. They apply just as well as fighters right?

The same way that a Triage Rorqual replaces the FAX. A Minokawa will put a triage fit rorqual to shame with a single repper.

Just as the mining yield is 10 hulks. No, it doesn't get the effective yield of 45,000 m3 per minute. It gets a theoretical 18k. If we're lucky, this will be an effective yield of close to 9k, or double a hulk, because drones are not turrets.

I say hopefully, because it would be bad if that 18,000 number is based on using an unrealistic fit like two T2 and one T1 drone mining augmentor rigs. In addition to being an extra billion in uninsurable fitting cost, it guts your cpu by nearly 200 and cripples your tank. Removing them, if they were included, gives us a theoretical 13,410. Which leaves us hoping to pull 6k, barely edging out a hulk in practice. We are also yet to see the cost of drones, which I expect to periodically lose to rats, or how they actually enter the market.


Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#304 - 2016-10-13 12:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Quick question. If CCP proposed blops with multimillion ehp, 1000 DPS and a 10 LY 90% reduction range (you could drop ratters in VFK from pure blind, lonetrek), would y'all be ok with that? P

Because that's what this is.
Cade Windstalker
#305 - 2016-10-13 13:29:02 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Well the thing would be that people already drop FAX on nodes and going PANIC with a bunch of skiffs or procurers around you means you force the enemy to bring a predictable and weak as all hell set of ships to handle it. Battle barges still do a startling amount of DPS in numbers and the FAX can rep like a monster right up until it has to hit the "no fun allowed" button.

It really wouldn't be remotely healthy for that aspect of the game.


Ed: No entosis for PANIC confirmed in tweetfleet. Woopwoop


Nice to hear, I would have been very surprised if that made it into the final version.

Knight Jay wrote:
It's going to be OP mark my words. and people will abuse the hell out of them.
They are neither expensive enough or crap enough at their individual roles to balance out the fact they can do all the roles of other caps at once plus have a 7min EHE


I might bother to mark your words if you had some substantive numbers to back them up. So far what we've got is a ship that can fit to rep well, or deal damage well, but not as well as either of the capitals that are specialized for the role and not without entering a siege cycle where it's local tank is worse than either of the ships it will supposedly be used instead of.

I'll see about throwing together some math on this subject tonight, but I'd be very surprised if these concerns are at all justified. It seems like you just sort of glanced at the bonuses and CCP's quick blurb and immediately PANIC'd without thinking... Lol

Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Quick question. If CCP proposed blops with multimillion ehp, 1000 DPS and a 10 LY 90% reduction range (you could drop ratters in VFK from pure blind, lonetrek), would y'all be ok with that? P

Because that's what this is.


It's possible we'll see people hot-dropping with gank Rorquals, but its DPS relies on quite slow drones which even a half-decently fit PvE ship can swat, and it aligns in about a minute, can't cloak while warping, and can be tackled by a single Interceptor more or less indefinitely.

If you dropped this thing on even a full-gank fit ratting Carrier the Carrier would go "oh look, lunch!" release tackle fighters, light a cyno, and proceed to chew through the Rorqual's drones while waiting for backup.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#306 - 2016-10-13 13:53:27 UTC
I dunno, it has a 6k drone bay (space for 48 heavy drone flights, 240 heavies total). You'll cyno in at 5-10km off the target and drop facemelting DPS which tracks perfectly, meanwhile having more EHP than said carrier, your choice of neuts, RR etc. It's absurdly powerful.

A ratting carrier wont break them in time, not even close.

Basically it's a Sin on some very powerful steroids. More expensive, sure, but also more insurable and far more durable. And can jump further with reduced fatigue to boot.

The range and fatigue reductions are huge. I was doing some calculations, a rorq can jump from Esesier to VFK (via IItanmanden) and back to the mid for the same fatigue as a another capital going 5 LY. You can literally go from Placid to the middle of Dek in under 2 minutes in these.
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2016-10-13 13:56:15 UTC
A sin doesn't have to siege for full DPS, it can MJD any time it feels in trouble and cloaked it moves much faster.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#308 - 2016-10-13 13:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
And a rorqual doesnt need to siege for 1k DPS either. If I can get a thanatos to a 10s align, I'll be able to do the same with a rorq.

EHP values are pre-buff therefor lower than they will be but you even now can easily get 2.02m EHP (no heat or links), a pair of capital remote reps (poor unsieged but still not ignorable if a few drop), neuts, MWD for align, 800 DPS out of 2.25km/s berzerkers, cloak. Pair of heavy cap boosters leaves it completely stable until charges go away. Enough cap power that one or two can swap a booster for a capital tackle mod. All before you even look at a faction mod (except the MWD, I deadspace that on my caps)
Cade Windstalker
#309 - 2016-10-13 14:46:07 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I dunno, it has a 6k drone bay (space for 48 heavy drone flights, 240 heavies total). You'll cyno in at 5-10km off the target and drop facemelting DPS which tracks perfectly, meanwhile having more EHP than said carrier, your choice of neuts, RR etc. It's absurdly powerful.

A ratting carrier wont break them in time, not even close.

Basically it's a Sin on some very powerful steroids. More expensive, sure, but also more insurable and far more durable. And can jump further with reduced fatigue to boot.

The range and fatigue reductions are huge. I was doing some calculations, a rorq can jump from Esesier to VFK (via IItanmanden) and back to the mid for the same fatigue as a another capital going 5 LY. You can literally go from Placid to the middle of Dek in under 2 minutes in these.


A ratting Carrier with an absolutely paper tank and no active reps has at least 300k EHP. That's a good 5 minutes for a single Rorqual to chew through it, and the Carrier doesn't even have to kill the drones it just has to chase them off to reduce incoming DPS, and capital RR on Drones will do jack and squat.

If the Carrier actually has an active tank fit then 1k DPS won't even come close to breaking it, so you're talking about someone dropping multiple Rorquals.

That'll fly just about once per group before whoever got dropped will have a group of capitals loitering a few systems over waiting to pop your loot pinata of a hot-drop, and unlock BLOPS you can't warp off and can't cloak up, making these things hilariously easy to catch and kill.

Plus while Black Ops ships are relatively expensive they're rarely fitted with expensive modules, making the loss comparable or slightly in the BLOPs ship's favor given the cost of insurance and Capital modules, and Blops can be easily purchases in Jita. A new Rorqual is much harder to buy and probably has to be built buy the group that wants to use it, a process that is logistically annoying at the least, and takes about two weeks, give or take.

Basically my personal stance on the concept of the Rorqual hot-drop is "great, sounds hilarious". I don't think this is going to replace or overshadow actual combat captials or Black Ops ships, and I don't think it's going to be nearly as prevalent or problematic as you seem to think.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#310 - 2016-10-13 15:26:55 UTC
Of course they can warp off and cloak, they are not locked in place to DPS Smile

Naturally I meant more than one in a drop, honestly - I think there are two things that will delay the prevalence - rorq availability and the skill requirements to use one.
Cade Windstalker
#311 - 2016-10-13 19:46:44 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Of course they can warp off and cloak, they are not locked in place to DPS Smile

Naturally I meant more than one in a drop, honestly - I think there are two things that will delay the prevalence - rorq availability and the skill requirements to use one.


Sorry, I mean can't in the sense of "the Rorqual takes around a full minute to align out and it can't warp cloaked" meaning it's easy to catch one, and a prober can nail it before it can cloak if they're good and smart. Besides, you can point and tackle a Rorqual pretty easily. Certainly more easily than a cloaky hotdrop fleet.

What that means is that you're basically dropping in anywhere between 2 and 4 times the value of a Black Ops fleet per-hull (Rorquals are up to 3b per hull according to Eve Central) for a small increase in jump range and a decent increase in Tank, but using ships that are vulnerable to capital drops and harder to evac than any cloaky you could conceivably bring.

So yeah, again, if people wanna hot drop these things I think that's a fantastic and hilarious idea and I wholeheartedly encourage the practice!
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#312 - 2016-10-13 22:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Sorry, I mean can't in the sense of "the Rorqual takes around a full minute to align out and it can't warp cloaked" meaning it's easy to catch one, and a prober can nail it before it can cloak if they're good and smart. Besides, you can point and tackle a Rorqual pretty easily. Certainly more easily than a cloaky hotdrop fleet.

Thought it can warp off and cloak, with the disadvantages you listed, it doesn't need to. It can just jump to an exit cyno. It's not relying on a field blops bridge back, which is what forces the rest of the drop to do so after a successful gank. It also has a very short jump cooldown.

When counterdropped, it's probably gonna die. It doesn't have the extraction option of a MJD.
For drops it can also be fit relatively cheaply with a minimum of capital modules. Even a T2 fit blops will cost you close to a bil after platinum insurance pay. The Rorqual will probably end up the cheaper loss. This is where it gains capacily to jump in and save a blops battleship, especially more than one. It's a favorable trade, even if you lose it in the process.

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, just something to consider.
Cade Windstalker
#313 - 2016-10-13 23:42:39 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Thought it can warp off and cloak, with the disadvantages you listed, it doesn't need to. It can just jump to an exit cyno. It's not relying on a field blops bridge back, which is what forces the rest of the drop to do so after a successful gank. It also has a very short jump cooldown.

When counterdropped, it's probably gonna die. It doesn't have the extraction option of a MJD.
For drops it can also be fit relatively cheaply with a minimum of capital modules. Even a T2 fit blops will cost you close to a bil after platinum insurance pay. The Rorqual will probably end up the cheaper loss. This is where it gains capacily to jump in and save a blops battleship, especially more than one. It's a favorable trade, even if you lose it in the process.

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, just something to consider.


It still has to deal with Jump Fatigue, at least to an extent, and I'm mostly talking about the situation of being counter-dropped while it either doesn't have jump cap or is still in fatigue (or is tackled). A BLOPS fleet that is tackled or otherwise interdicted, whether it's made up entirely of BLOPS ships or not, will be basically impossible to track and pin down once off-grid even for an experienced prober unless someone screws up the extraction (not impossible, but unlikely enough that I think we can write it off for the purposes of this discussion).

As for the cost of a Rorqual I don't think you'll realistically have time to drop it on a BLOPS drop gone wrong, and you're overestimating the insurance payout.

I pulled the current Rorqual Platinum Insurance Cost and Payout off of CREST (wooo Eve APIs!) and it comes to a cost of 664,678,502.4 ISK and a payout of 2,215,595,008 ISK. At the current market price of 3B that's a net loss on the hull of about 1.5B, and even if you're building the things yourselves that's still a loss of a full 1B after job install and material costs plus the cost of capital modules (and the Industrial Core if you want to use it as an emergency reps drop).

I'm not saying it won't happen, and like I said I kind of hope it does, but I don't think it's something that's going to become the new meta.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#314 - 2016-10-15 02:38:00 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

As for the cost of a Rorqual I don't think you'll realistically have time to drop it on a BLOPS drop gone wrong, and you're overestimating the insurance payout.

I pulled the current Rorqual Platinum Insurance Cost and Payout off of CREST (wooo Eve APIs!) and it comes to a cost of 664,678,502.4 ISK and a payout of 2,215,595,008 ISK. At the current market price of 3B that's a net loss on the hull of about 1.5B, and even if you're building the things yourselves that's still a loss of a full 1B after job install and material costs plus the cost of capital modules (and the Industrial Core if you want to use it as an emergency reps drop).

The payout is roughly equal to build cost, there is just a massive demand for them at the moment. Paying the insurance and fitting it totalling around a bil is not all that difficult.

By comparison, a Blops:
Platinum 71,960,923.00 239,869,744.00
is a net payout of 170 mil. The hull itself is over a bil. It's not hard to go over 170 mil fitting the thing. Particularly if you're fitting to bridge the small stuff back and have even the most modest of bling typically fitted to one. A quick look at killboard losses this month and it's not hard to find ones that approach or even surpass two billion.
Kaning Olacar
The Soul Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#315 - 2016-10-15 11:13:43 UTC
Will there be other ways other than the industrial core to increase the yield? IE modules that affect the drones? (before anyone mentions the rigs yes i know they are there....and they are ****....carry on) It would be interesting to see pilots having options other than anchoring themselves in one position
Flashmala
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#316 - 2016-10-15 19:53:16 UTC
Will the Invulnerability Core Operation skill be available to train before November 8th?

Age does not diminish the extreme disappointment of having a scoop of ice cream fall from the cone.

Mole Guy
Deep Space Coalition
A Class Apart
#317 - 2016-10-16 19:18:40 UTC
what about mining boosts and those belts that are 1300km wide?

some of the roids are 100km apart which means we will have to boost a miner and they warp to it.
on the drone miners, especially the rorqual, we siege and strip a roid, then wait 5 minutes to move to a new roid to siege again.

any chance to shrink those fields since we dont have system wide boosts anymore?
Cade Windstalker
#318 - 2016-10-17 14:40:44 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
The payout is roughly equal to build cost, there is just a massive demand for them at the moment. Paying the insurance and fitting it totalling around a bil is not all that difficult.

By comparison, a Blops:
Platinum 71,960,923.00 239,869,744.00
is a net payout of 170 mil. The hull itself is over a bil. It's not hard to go over 170 mil fitting the thing. Particularly if you're fitting to bridge the small stuff back and have even the most modest of bling typically fitted to one. A quick look at killboard losses this month and it's not hard to find ones that approach or even surpass two billion.


Payout is actually always slightly below build cost to avoid insurance scams and other potential perverse incentives (like the Rokh Self Destruct plague that got insurance changed in the first place).

The build cost is still 2.5b (per Fuzzworks) unless you're building the thing entirely from base minerals, and the loss-mail will count against market price not mineral price because that's what you could have gotten for the thing if you'd sold it. The actual mineral price of a Black Ops is well below 1b, but the cost in time, skills, and research cores pushes the price up so if you're going to compare losses it should be market price to market price, not market price to build price.

Anyways, the end result is I don't think we're going to be seeing Rorquals used too much in support of Black Ops operations. Hard to get them into position, questionable if they'll even help you get the shinies off grid, and if you drop one you're basically guaranteed to lose it.

Kaning Olacar wrote:
Will there be other ways other than the industrial core to increase the yield? IE modules that affect the drones? (before anyone mentions the rigs yes i know they are there....and they are ****....carry on) It would be interesting to see pilots having options other than anchoring themselves in one position


I don't believe there are any drone mining yield low slots, and besides if there were they would stack with the core, so to get the full benefit you still need to anchor in place with the core and take that risk to reap the massive rewards.
Cade Windstalker
#319 - 2016-10-17 14:42:31 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
what about mining boosts and those belts that are 1300km wide?

some of the roids are 100km apart which means we will have to boost a miner and they warp to it.
on the drone miners, especially the rorqual, we siege and strip a roid, then wait 5 minutes to move to a new roid to siege again.

any chance to shrink those fields since we dont have system wide boosts anymore?


This sounds more like an interesting challenge to be overcome than something that should be removed because of its lack of convenience.

Those who are good at planning and coordination reap the rewards of these belts, those who aren't find them frustrating and mine elsewhere. Thus we have yet another thing to differentiate systems are areas of space.
Dina Datrader
The Dingo Ate My Spaceship
#320 - 2016-10-17 17:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dina Datrader
RIP Rorqual.

I will be using mine purely as an additional JF to haul mining ships and ore once it comes out as that is about the only thing I like about this concept.

IMO I think you have considered the larger corps / alliances but forgotten about the smaller groups who don't have the same luxury as my miners do in a larger alliance.

If I do use it to boost , I most certainly will not be using the core. I have the luxury of a large alliance to back me up, but still most likely wouldn't arrive in time anyway. The PANIC button only delays the inevitable explosion.

I feel sorry for the smaller corps / alliances, it is them that will suffer the most from this change.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that everything we fly should come with risk to which the rorq at present basically does not and I am all for it as far as it should have risk attached but you should have allowed cloaking with the core running or something IMO, I don't know, but as it is at the moment I feel the rorq is a sitting duck and feel the risk is not worth the reward..

Having said all that though, we will have to wait and see I guess, once it is released before I make any hard decisions.