These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2016-10-11 01:38:51 UTC
Nfynity Prime wrote:
I was really looking forward to this expansion, but not any more. Not very happy about most of this, but Attention the fuel costs are especially egregious. Attention

60 blocks / hour for just your basic manufacturing, research, and invention. That's more than 3 times as much as a faction medium tower, which also happens to do everything, not just a couple selective niches, with efficiency, while being much tougher to kill as well as portable and cheaper to put up!.

To put that in perspective, we're talking approximately 750,000,000 ISK / month for this thing (Medium EC) versus around 250,000,000 ISK for the vastly superior POS. Where's the risk vs reward? It's all increased risks and costs for less reward. How much more stuff do you need to make to just recoup the extra 1/2 bil IKS in fuel costs? I don't know about some, but I actually already have a full time job and don't need another.

Attention If nothing else, at least cut the fuel cost in half or less and/or remove the onlining costs for the modules. Attention

It still wouldn't be as good as a POS, due to being locked into certain niches and being much more vulnerable and non portable and more expensive for less functionality, but it might at least be better than going back to a station again. As is, they are all worthless for all but the largest corps, who can keep them running non stop to make up for the fuel costs and have large fleets to protect their paper thin assets!

This is all aimed at costing large Null alliances more, to cut down on some of their massive incomes. However as usual everyone else gets screwed.

CCP please stop focusing on Null and focus on the parts of the game that look like ghost towns.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#222 - 2016-10-11 01:58:13 UTC
when supers are built at X-large Complexes, what happen when the job delivered?
would that supers ejected from Complexes automatically? or just like other ships you can fit it inside the Complexes?
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#223 - 2016-10-11 02:05:25 UTC
MuraSaki Siki wrote:
when supers are built at X-large Complexes, what happen when the job delivered?
would that supers ejected from Complexes automatically? or just like other ships you can fit it inside the Complexes?


Probably delivered inside (with the external view instead of the hangar when active) then to undock it just comes off the drydock area where it was built and can't redock once it leaves the structure.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2016-10-11 02:21:24 UTC
Can we get a higher-quality, 1080p version of this screenshot from the dev blog that isn't so JPG'd? That's desktop background material right there. P
MrB99
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#225 - 2016-10-11 02:26:33 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
E6o5 wrote:
Why do BPOs stored/used in the structure do not drop if the structure is destroyed? With Towers right now they have a Chance to drop. With the new structures there is so little risk for the owner ...

Even less players will use the new structures if they do this Lol


Yep. Nobody is going to risk researching a billion ISK BPO in a paper structure unless they did this. It is one of the things CCP did right.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#226 - 2016-10-11 02:45:47 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Altrue wrote:
A bit sad over the higher vulnerability timers and the retaining of the system cost manufacturing index, but I understand why both of these aspects are necessary.

What of the ability to use a Market Service Module? Is it limited to L and XL or only for XL?


I expect that the market service module can only be fit to Fortizars, Keepstars, and the Palatine Keepstar. Not the engineering complexes. It would seem counter-design to allow a manufacturing structure to provide the market services of a Citadel. Same, I would expect, for clone services.

As the new structures require both market networks AND medical centers as part of the build, it would seem Devs have repeated the fiasco with the medium Citadels (require market networks to build) by including build items the structure is unable to utilize.
Or, the new structures will double up on existing structure uses and have markets and cloning services..

Shame Devs don't have enough imagination to create something from scratch and are just rehashing the same old things with price tags that exclude so many players.

Bigger shame is; instead of one or 2 structures worth a few bil each, you will now need 4 or 5 structures worth 10's of billion each to do the same thing.

I for one am glad Alpha clones are coming with this release, it will free up so much of my time and effort each week as an industrialist.

CCP not only went into this "hat on head", they also turned off logic and risk vs reward in the planning process.

Hint; Not everyone wants to belong to a mega group - Not everyone who plays Eve has trillions of isk, some of us survive month to month. Keep pricing us out of our income earning pursuits, you eventually chase us into finding other ways to utilize our "leisure time"

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Professor Humbert
Project Fruit House
#227 - 2016-10-11 02:52:24 UTC
Can an engineering complex fit a market service module?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#228 - 2016-10-11 02:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Professor Humbert wrote:
Can an engineering complex fit a market service module?

nvm, i have no idea
Dreamer Targaryen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#229 - 2016-10-11 03:14:42 UTC
Not sure if you read this thread, but:

  1. What will happen, if the industrial structure runs out of fuel? Will the jobs abort, pause or will I just be unable to start new ones?
  2. Why did you switch away from the easy-to-understand naming-scheme of citadels (alphabetically, sorted by size) to some "all over the place"-system?
Queeg Fivehundred
Miranda Regional Technologies
#230 - 2016-10-11 03:22:00 UTC
Asking for a clarification:

25% reduction in industrial service module consumption = ? Is that Fuel or ME?


Comment:

Too many medium rigs. How many Indy players out there are going to waste a slot for TE production on a medium complex? I know I sure as hell won't. Save a few minutes or save millions on manufacturing costs?

As it looks, I'm going to need about 6 complexes if I want to stay competitive using rigs for everything I'm building/refining/inventing. I've a very diversified industrialist. This proposed setup is fine if you make only a few things and can specialize. For me, I build bullets to ICS, invent everything smaller than a BC, and refine all sec ore's. It isn't going to be possible anymore to maintain all of this with the structures, fuel, transportation back and forth, and defense. Right now I can do ALL of this in one POS for a fraction of these fuel costs and structure capital costs.


Recommendation:

Medium Rigs:
Merge the medium rigs TE and ME just like the large rigs.

Large Rigs:
Merge the benefits: i.e. All ships smaller than a BS ME/TE bonus on the same rig, but not to the extreme as the XL rigs. Invention/copy one rig, ME/TE on one rig.


Also - defense of the complex should be comparable...not crippled in comparison to the Citadels. These are bigger targets and will be attacked more as the rewards are greater.


I'm beginning to question the usefulness of a citadel now, if all they are, are a space based storage yard with guns. No other benefits to those they were meant to replace (POS) aside from cloning and market.

I think that there should be a way to link a system citadel to the complexes and future structures to boost defensive and other capabilities. Like a defense or manufacturing bonus if there is a citadel by the same corp in the same system. Larger the citadel, the bigger the bonus. Make it worth building a citadel in the same system as the engineering complex.

Esdruxulo
Spicy Onion Rings
#231 - 2016-10-11 03:29:53 UTC
It's worse than I thought. You not only want to phase out Starbases, but want to replace them for a thing that doesn't drop stuff when destroyed?

CCP, bashing Starbases is content too, and a quite profitable one that gives meaning to highsec PVP. I am very upset that you want to ruin that part of the game.

I want to know if CCP will do something to make up for that, because I won't be plexing half a dozen accounts per month if I won't have use for that anymore.
gunny Tzestu
The Order of the Paradox
#232 - 2016-10-11 03:33:54 UTC
wtf, where is the Thukker bonus for low-sec capital production? why would you take that away?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#233 - 2016-10-11 03:35:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Rowells wrote:
Professor Humbert wrote:
Can an engineering complex fit a market service module?

nvm, i have no idea

You could read the info & attributes on the service module.

Can be fitted to: Fortizar, Keepstar, Upwell Palatine Keepstar
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#234 - 2016-10-11 04:12:43 UTC
Just a little bit of number-crunching here:

With the fuel cost of the services totaling 45 blocks an hour (after the 25% structure reduction), we'll be burning 32,400 fuel blocks a month (calculated as 30 days) to achieve basic Manufacturing, Research, and Invention. At 20k per block, that's 648 mil per month in fuel. That's more than a large tower (600 / 518 / 460 mil a month for normal / faction / true faction) for less utility and higher risk.

The ME cost savings for a T2 rig (with the 25% bonus) is:


Highsec: 3.6%
Lowsec: 5.4%
Nullsec: 6.0%

So to make up the cost of the fuel, simply to break even over having no ME bonus (such as from an NPC station), in a system with a 2.5% Index (which will be laughably low), your break-even will be:

Highsec: 16.8 billion ISK
Lowsec: 11.5 billion ISK
Nullsec: 10.3 billion ISK

Of course, there's always the extra cost incurred from the job being in the oven longer, but that cost is significantly more difficult to calculate. Even if you account for it reduced the break-even cost by an additional 10%, the break-even to handle the fuel costs are still absurd.

The break-even for a small non-faction tower (7,200 blocks / 30 days, or 144 mil) is 5.5 bil. For a faction tower (9 blocks) it's 5.0 bil, and for a true faction tower (8 blocks), it's 4.3 bil.

The break-even costs on fuel are 3-4 times higher with the EC's than for a small POS, 10-25% higher than a Large POS, and the damn thing doesn't even provide the same functionality (nevermind the cost of the structure itself compared to a POS).

You can move up to a Large to have better functionality, since the service module costs stay the same, but your fixed cost of a structure goes from 350 mil for a fully-fit small tower to 5.2 bil *just for the hull* of the Medium.

You pretty much *have* to have a group using the structure and paying taxes, just so you can break even on the fuel. Small-time / solo industrialists are going to be driven back to NPC stations once POS arrays lose their bonuses.

I was excited when I first started reading about these, but the more I've read about them and the more I've thought about them, the more I dislike them.
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Virtus Crusade Protectorate
#235 - 2016-10-11 04:28:22 UTC
Justine Musk wrote:
Also... 104 rigs? Is it me or are they just too many?


Yeah CCP - why not throw us a simplicity bone here....

Suggestion:

Make just one size rig for all Engineering Citadels. REASON: You already said if you are willing to shell coin for a larger and larger Engineering Citadels, that you would gain functionality. Make it the same way and save us some complexity. Granularity is good...but this is overkill. Not to mention the cost on citadel rigs in general is probably killer. (And I thought Cap ship rigs were insane in price.)
Zateki Shamaya
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2016-10-11 04:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Zateki Shamaya
The only thing that I'll use EC for over pos and station is BPO research in a Med.

The ECs are too expensive, too squishy, and too limited to warrant their cost and risk over PoSs.

Given this pitch for ECs, it seems to me that CCP's message to industrialists is that we've had it too good for too long and its time for a nerf.

Way more expensive structures that cost more to run and do less.
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Virtus Crusade Protectorate
#237 - 2016-10-11 04:42:43 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Just a little bit of number-crunching here:

With the fuel cost of the services totaling 45 blocks an hour (after the 25% structure reduction), we'll be burning 32,400 fuel blocks a month (calculated as 30 days) to achieve basic Manufacturing, Research, and Invention. At 20k per block, that's 648 mil per month in fuel. That's more than a large tower (600 / 518 / 460 mil a month for normal / faction / true faction) for less utility and higher risk.

The ME cost savings for a T2 rig (with the 25% bonus) is:


Highsec: 3.6%
Lowsec: 5.4%
Nullsec: 6.0%

So to make up the cost of the fuel, simply to break even over having no ME bonus (such as from an NPC station), in a system with a 2.5% Index (which will be laughably low), your break-even will be:

Highsec: 16.8 billion ISK
Lowsec: 11.5 billion ISK
Nullsec: 10.3 billion ISK

Of course, there's always the extra cost incurred from the job being in the oven longer, but that cost is significantly more difficult to calculate. Even if you account for it reduced the break-even cost by an additional 10%, the break-even to handle the fuel costs are still absurd.

The break-even for a small non-faction tower (7,200 blocks / 30 days, or 144 mil) is 5.5 bil. For a faction tower (9 blocks) it's 5.0 bil, and for a true faction tower (8 blocks), it's 4.3 bil.

The break-even costs on fuel are 3-4 times higher with the EC's than for a small POS, 10-25% higher than a Large POS, and the damn thing doesn't even provide the same functionality (nevermind the cost of the structure itself compared to a POS).

You can move up to a Large to have better functionality, since the service module costs stay the same, but your fixed cost of a structure goes from 350 mil for a fully-fit small tower to 5.2 bil *just for the hull* of the Medium.

You pretty much *have* to have a group using the structure and paying taxes, just so you can break even on the fuel. Small-time / solo industrialists are going to be driven back to NPC stations once POS arrays lose their bonuses.

I was excited when I first started reading about these, but the more I've read about them and the more I've thought about them, the more I dislike them.



First off - thank you for crunching this. Second, you nailed it on the head...last paragraph..."You pretty much have to have a group." I think small or solo industrialists (probably the majority of us in game) are thus complaining because this is such a social/game play shift. Having to ban together to run an indy outfit...this doesn't really sit well.

This is going to take some time for us all to digest and think about accordingly.

Do we like the idea of basically nixing solo/small group play to hisec stations and then barely squeeking out a living? Can we adapt to working in groups/sharing facilities??

So much of Industry is TRADE and trade secrets as well. I think we worry about losing our trade secrets with this sort of setup. What sort of privacy fences will be up so that the Citadel owner cannot see what indy jobs users are doing?

So much is not having to have a huge bankroll to get started with POSs. Citadels don't seem to offer that granularity it seems with these changes.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#238 - 2016-10-11 05:09:15 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Just a little bit of number-crunching here:

With the fuel cost of the services totaling 45 blocks an hour (after the 25% structure reduction), we'll be burning 32,400 fuel blocks a month (calculated as 30 days) to achieve basic Manufacturing, Research, and Invention. At 20k per block, that's 648 mil per month in fuel. That's more than a large tower (600 / 518 / 460 mil a month for normal / faction / true faction) for less utility and higher risk.

The ME cost savings for a T2 rig (with the 25% bonus) is:


Highsec: 3.6%
Lowsec: 5.4%
Nullsec: 6.0%

So to make up the cost of the fuel, simply to break even over having no ME bonus (such as from an NPC station), in a system with a 2.5% Index (which will be laughably low), your break-even will be:

Highsec: 16.8 billion ISK
Lowsec: 11.5 billion ISK
Nullsec: 10.3 billion ISK

Of course, there's always the extra cost incurred from the job being in the oven longer, but that cost is significantly more difficult to calculate. Even if you account for it reduced the break-even cost by an additional 10%, the break-even to handle the fuel costs are still absurd.

The break-even for a small non-faction tower (7,200 blocks / 30 days, or 144 mil) is 5.5 bil. For a faction tower (9 blocks) it's 5.0 bil, and for a true faction tower (8 blocks), it's 4.3 bil.

The break-even costs on fuel are 3-4 times higher with the EC's than for a small POS, 10-25% higher than a Large POS, and the damn thing doesn't even provide the same functionality (nevermind the cost of the structure itself compared to a POS).

You can move up to a Large to have better functionality, since the service module costs stay the same, but your fixed cost of a structure goes from 350 mil for a fully-fit small tower to 5.2 bil *just for the hull* of the Medium.

You pretty much *have* to have a group using the structure and paying taxes, just so you can break even on the fuel. Small-time / solo industrialists are going to be driven back to NPC stations once POS arrays lose their bonuses.

I was excited when I first started reading about these, but the more I've read about them and the more I've thought about them, the more I dislike them.


I was just doing this same exercise with some folks in Slack, but instead of comparing to NPC I was comparing them to my existing POS.

It's still not very favorable when you consider the extent of what you can do in a POS, and the ability to chase a low index. In that case, though, it's only a problem so long as POS exist/are bonused.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#239 - 2016-10-11 05:21:47 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Nonsense about bringing back limited industry lines.

Limited industry lines were awful, and going back to them would be as foolish as bringing back Learning Skills.


It worked wonderfully before: want more lines, build more POSes. Expenses scaled to demands, and there was no messing around with nonsense "industry indexes". Industry indexes are going to mess things up for non-NPC industry snce the more industry you do, the more expensive it becomes to do your industry.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#240 - 2016-10-11 06:02:44 UTC
Centurax wrote:
I kinda wanted to start with sometime positive, so way to go art department, really good work on the models.

Then we get to the timers and defense capabilities of the EC's I am not sure what the idea behind the long timers and paper thin defenses are but unless you can anchor the EC within weapons range (between 150km and 300km would work) of a friendly Citadel, not sure what the point is. Given that the majority of the owners will be industrialists with possibly little or no interest in PVP, this forces them to spend a very long period of game play time sitting around doing nothing but watch lights blink kinda boring game play.

At this point I am thinking if the industrial mods and rigs fit and work on a Citadel, why should I use this structure, not sure the building bonuses alone would justify using the new EC structures.

I have many doubts on what is actually being achieved here, because I know industrialist and have spent way too much time in a factory and lab my self I don't think this is the correct direction to take the industrial structures. It looks good if you want to attack it, but the only 2 groups will gain from this are PVPers and the guys who build EC's P .



the industrialist does not have to own the structure, but can still use it. Negotiate docking rights, use a freeport etc. That is the big difference to POSes.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value