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when supers are built at X-large Complexes, what happen when the job delivered?
would that supers ejected from Complexes automatically? or just like other ships you can fit it inside the Complexes?

Can we get a higher-quality, 1080p version of this screenshot from the dev blog that isn't so JPG'd? That's desktop background material right there.

As the new structures require both market networks AND medical centers as part of the build, it would seem Devs have repeated the fiasco with the medium Citadels (require market networks to build) by including build items the structure is unable to utilize.
Or, the new structures will double up on existing structure uses and have markets and cloning services..

Shame Devs don't have enough imagination to create something from scratch and are just rehashing the same old things with price tags that exclude so many players.

Bigger shame is; instead of one or 2 structures worth a few bil each, you will now need 4 or 5 structures worth 10's of billion each to do the same thing.

I for one am glad Alpha clones are coming with this release, it will free up so much of my time and effort each week as an industrialist.

CCP not only went into this "hat on head", they also turned off logic and risk vs reward in the planning process.

Hint; Not everyone wants to belong to a mega group - Not everyone who plays Eve has trillions of isk, some of us survive month to month. Keep pricing us out of our income earning pursuits, you eventually chase us into finding other ways to utilize our "leisure time"

nvm, i have no idea

Asking for a clarification:

25% reduction in industrial service module consumption = ? Is that Fuel or ME?


Comment:

Too many medium rigs. How many Indy players out there are going to waste a slot for TE production on a medium complex? I know I sure as hell won't. Save a few minutes or save millions on manufacturing costs?

As it looks, I'm going to need about 6 complexes if I want to stay competitive using rigs for everything I'm building/refining/inventing. I've a very diversified industrialist. This proposed setup is fine if you make only a few things and can specialize. For me, I build bullets to ICS, invent everything smaller than a BC, and refine all sec ore's. It isn't going to be possible anymore to maintain all of this with the structures, fuel, transportation back and forth, and defense. Right now I can do ALL of this in one POS for a fraction of these fuel costs and structure capital costs.


Recommendation:

Medium Rigs:
Merge the medium rigs TE and ME just like the large rigs.

Large Rigs:
Merge the benefits: i.e. All ships smaller than a BS ME/TE bonus on the same rig, but not to the extreme as the XL rigs. Invention/copy one rig, ME/TE on one rig.


Also - defense of the complex should be comparable...not crippled in comparison to the Citadels. These are bigger targets and will be attacked more as the rewards are greater.


I'm beginning to question the usefulness of a citadel now, if all they are, are a space based storage yard with guns. No other benefits to those they were meant to replace (POS) aside from cloning and market.

I think that there should be a way to link a system citadel to the complexes and future structures to boost defensive and other capabilities. Like a defense or manufacturing bonus if there is a citadel by the same corp in the same system. Larger the citadel, the bigger the bonus. Make it worth building a citadel in the same system as the engineering complex.

wtf, where is the Thukker bonus for low-sec capital production? why would you take that away?

Just a little bit of number-crunching here:

With the fuel cost of the services totaling 45 blocks an hour (after the 25% structure reduction), we'll be burning 32,400 fuel blocks a month (calculated as 30 days) to achieve basic Manufacturing, Research, and Invention. At 20k per block, that's 648 mil per month in fuel. That's more than a large tower (600 / 518 / 460 mil a month for normal / faction / true faction) for less utility and higher risk.

The ME cost savings for a T2 rig (with the 25% bonus) is:


Highsec: 3.6%
Lowsec: 5.4%
Nullsec: 6.0%

So to make up the cost of the fuel, simply to break even over having no ME bonus (such as from an NPC station), in a system with a 2.5% Index (which will be laughably low), your break-even will be:

Highsec: 16.8 billion ISK
Lowsec: 11.5 billion ISK
Nullsec: 10.3 billion ISK

Of course, there's always the extra cost incurred from the job being in the oven longer, but that cost is significantly more difficult to calculate. Even if you account for it reduced the break-even cost by an additional 10%, the break-even to handle the fuel costs are still absurd.

The break-even for a small non-faction tower (7,200 blocks / 30 days, or 144 mil) is 5.5 bil. For a faction tower (9 blocks) it's 5.0 bil, and for a true faction tower (8 blocks), it's 4.3 bil.

The break-even costs on fuel are 3-4 times higher with the EC's than for a small POS, 10-25% higher than a Large POS, and the damn thing doesn't even provide the same functionality (nevermind the cost of the structure itself compared to a POS).

You can move up to a Large to have better functionality, since the service module costs stay the same, but your fixed cost of a structure goes from 350 mil for a fully-fit small tower to 5.2 bil *just for the hull* of the Medium.

You pretty much *have* to have a group using the structure and paying taxes, just so you can break even on the fuel. Small-time / solo industrialists are going to be driven back to NPC stations once POS arrays lose their bonuses.

I was excited when I first started reading about these, but the more I've read about them and the more I've thought about them, the more I dislike them.

The only thing that I'll use EC for over pos and station is BPO research in a Med.

The ECs are too expensive, too squishy, and too limited to warrant their cost and risk over PoSs.

Given this pitch for ECs, it seems to me that CCP's message to industrialists is that we've had it too good for too long and its time for a nerf.

Way more expensive structures that cost more to run and do less.

I was just doing this same exercise with some folks in Slack, but instead of comparing to NPC I was comparing them to my existing POS.

It's still not very favorable when you consider the extent of what you can do in a POS, and the ability to chase a low index. In that case, though, it's only a problem so long as POS exist/are bonused.

the industrialist does not have to own the structure, but can still use it. Negotiate docking rights, use a freeport etc. That is the big difference to POSes.