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[Feedback Request] Capital Ships in Incursions

First post
Author
Moinge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2016-04-08 15:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Moinge
It seems like many guys here didn't understand the mechanics in an incursion site.

There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers.
Just give everybody a bit of a local tank and you're fine. The NPC's switch the target ages before you die with the massive EHP of capital ships. The numbers of EHP after the citadel release is another thing to consider but even if they get nerfed it's not mentionable.
A full TCRC has around 20k DPS. With a 5k DPS tank you live long enough until the targets are switching. After that you are repping up again, done.

If the current incursion mechanics are used you yolo in with carriers and you can run sites times that are currently only possible within a contest.
With the incoming capital MWD's even the TPPH isn't a real problem.
Dreads are not worth fielding becasue any site will end before one siege cycle will end.

The only disadvantage will be the warp speed.
considering the bigger fleets in low/ nullsec and the higher payout you'll earn alot of money.



so i think using capitals with the current mechanics will break the system more or less. if there are special sites for capitals it woould be more intersting because current sansha rats can't harm a well fitted carrier in a fleet.

Today an incursion ships in highsec costs 3 to 4b. an insured carrier could do it better with less money, seems a little bit broken then if the can fly the same sites. and as stated it's insured. if you loose it, take the next one ;-)


Skyrider Deathknight wrote:
I'm an null sec incursion FC for my alliance, for those that are unaware null sec incursions allow 50% more people on grid and payout about 20% more, however most of that extra payout is negated through null sec taxes.
.....
As mentioned above and I do not wish to divulge my crafting in such a public space but dreads and carriers will improve site times slightly when they are around, if they are allowed doesn't mean it'll always be the case that they will there running.


What? your thoughts are to genius to publish them here? oh please bring your holy ingeniousness to us, we will pray for you every day!
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2016-04-08 15:49:25 UTC
Moinge wrote:
It seems like many guys here didn't understand the mechanics in an incursion site.

There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers.
Just give everybody a bit of a local tank and you're fine. The NPC's switch the target ages before you die with the massive EHP of capital ships. The numbers of EHP after the citadel release is another thing to consider but even if they get nerfed it's not mentionable.
A full TCRC has around 20k DPS. With a 5k DPS tank you live long enough until the targets are switching. After that you are repping up again, done.

If the current incursion mechanics are used you yolo in with carriers and you can run sites times that are currently only possible within a contest.
With the incoming capital MWD's even the TPPH isn't a real problem.
Dreads are not worth fielding becasue any site will end before one siege cycle will end.

The only disadvantage will be the warp speed.
considering the bigger fleets in low/ nullsec and the higher payout you'll earn alot of money.


so i think using capitals with the current mechanics will break the system more or less. if there are special sites for capitals it woould be more intersting because current sansha rats can't harm a well fitted carrier in a fleet.

Today an incursions ships in highsec costs 3 to 4b. an insured carrier could do it better with less money, seems a little bit broken then if the can fly the same sites. and as stated it's insured. if you loose it, take the next one ;-)


CCP is getting rid of the remote-rep carriers, so you'll need dedicated FAX logi. But I think their tank will hold through a triage cycle. You can local rep a ton in triage. Like any triage, the question is about cap. I'm wondering if we'll get the otunis and deltoles down fast enough to not die terribly. An Otuni neut could kill a sieged/triaged cap.

How could you get stupidly fast site times in a carrier? You can't use sentries post-patch, so you still have travel time for the drones?
The capital MWDs will get you up to about 1k/sec not as fast as a battleship, but fast enough to do the site in a reasonable time.
Yes, you'll earn a lot of money, but how does that compare to the 23/7 isk you can earn from hisec. You should be able to earn more money in low then null, then sitting there safely in hisec.

I don't see how it'll break the system. Currently incursion rats can't harm a well fitted incursion BS either. The only reason you die is if you don't broadcast. You'll die in your carrier if you don't broadcast as well, your window for broadcasting will be larger, but same rules apply.
Moinge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2016-04-08 16:05:33 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:


CCP is getting rid of the remote-rep carriers, so you'll need dedicated FAX logi. But I think their tank will hold through a triage cycle. You can local rep a ton in triage. Like any triage, the question is about cap. I'm wondering if we'll get the otunis and deltoles down fast enough to not die terribly. An Otuni neut could kill a sieged/triaged cap.

How could you get stupidly fast site times in a carrier? You can't use sentries post-patch, so you still have travel time for the drones?
The capital MWDs will get you up to about 1k/sec not as fast as a battleship, but fast enough to do the site in a reasonable time.
Yes, you'll earn a lot of money, but how does that compare to the 23/7 isk you can earn from hisec. You should be able to earn more money in low then null, then sitting there safely in hisec.

I don't see how it'll break the system. Currently incursion rats can't harm a well fitted incursion BS either. The only reason you die is if you don't broadcast. You'll die in your carrier if you don't broadcast as well, your window for broadcasting will be larger, but same rules apply.



read again please. i mentioned LOCAL tank, not remote reps.

EFT says to me that an Archon currently has 80k capacitor. an outuni neut caps out around 3k and has a long cycle. what do 40 or more carries with some outunis? they die horribly. so even if the outuni(s) get out more than one cycle it's not a big deal for the cap of a carrier.

a vindicator can do 1.4 to 1.5k m/s. It has to travel nearly 100 km to shoot the tower in a TCRC. As a carrier you warp in and get the fighters on the tower. The fighters are faster than a vindicator and they have more DPS. nothing to add here.

In a TPPH the carriers are slower, yes but you can kill everything while traveling to the next gate. Currently incursion Battleships reach the gate long before the spawn is dead.

In a NRF it's the same loek the TCRC warp in and let the fighters move.

If you fly currently in a battleship the incursions can harm you of course. if you get full stage in some sites and you forget to broadcast for 5 seconds it will be very tough to save you. in some communities you are dead (no names here). in a carrier you problably have enough ehp to survive until the aggro is switching even without repping.

Sturmwolke
#104 - 2016-04-08 20:39:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We we're calling on all incursion runners for your feedback: do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion?

It'll be an isk money printer once the runners finalize min-maxing their setups. HQ sites will be nearly risk free from the PVE side with a capital anchor.
For incursions, there is no middle ground when running for isks, either VG (ease of formup) or HQ (best return), Assaults even if you open the jumpgates for capitals, would still remain status quo i.e.largely ignored and statistically the worst site in terms of no. completed. Any arguments that it would open up Assault sites to more utilization are simply irrelevant without impacting the isk/hr balance between sites.
No adhoc pirates or small gangs will be inclined to drop on fleets that regularly include capitals. Only the more organized fleets would engage with capitals. Net effect = safer incursion running.

Where is this so called "well reasoned arguments" , please link it for posterity? To expect feedback from the public while hiding the actual context of the arguments is an underhanded way of ensuring things get through with minimal noise (just like RL's TPPA/TPP boondoggle) . What are the contexts?

What are you REALLY after when introducing capitals to lowsec/null incursions?

a) Increase isk faucet? (once min-maxed and no balance pass is done, yes)
b) Increase participation/conflict? (once word gets out you make more isk through this method, yes)
c) Increase capital usage? (unlikely to make noticeable dent in the numbers of capitals in use - expected use and low no. of lowsec/null incursion runners)
d) Entice nullbears to form regular incursion fleets due to all the above? (yep, that will likely happen down the road, depending on the isk returns & ease of fleet setup)

a) is the cornerstone. That is a huge negative.
b), c) and d) are the result of a). It does not/will not exist without a).

Let's do this simple.
You're back to the same old story, basically a rebalance of lowsec/null incursions ... no not a rebalance, a buff in the guise of introducing capitals.
Skyrider Deathknight
EliteExSuperCapitalFCJoeBarbarian
#105 - 2016-04-08 23:37:43 UTC
Moinge wrote:

What? your thoughts are to genius to publish them here? oh please bring your holy ingeniousness to us, we will pray for you every day!


Please don't misquote what I say. That was a reply to myself to the question "Will capital ships make a huge impact on how incursions are being ran?" Tactics and strategy is what I do, this place is for feedback not for s*** posting. I gave an overall effect on such tactics.

Moinge wrote:

There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers.

With any experience in incursions with the new mechanics to carriers you'll realize how terrible this would be.

Moinge wrote:

The only disadvantage will be the warp speed.

Again this is incorrect. Dreads core damage come from being in siege which for you information that would disallow remote assistance. So getting shield and cap would solely come from that pilot, with the nerf coming with the refitting during combat there is no refitting to help the pilot unscrew his/her mistake. As per my last post I explained high threat targets already on field that could do some very serious damage to a triage / siege pilot.

There are other obvious flaws that I wish to not make them as obvious as they are now.

I recommend that you try some private theory crafting to form your own informed feedback so it's unbiased.
Moinge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2016-04-09 00:47:05 UTC
Skyrider Deathknight wrote:
Moinge wrote:

What? your thoughts are to genius to publish them here? oh please bring your holy ingeniousness to us, we will pray for you every day!


Please don't misquote what I say. That was a reply to myself to the question "Will capital ships make a huge impact on how incursions are being ran?" Tactics and strategy is what I do, this place is for feedback not for s*** posting. I gave an overall effect on such tactics.

Moinge wrote:

There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers.

With any experience in incursions with the new mechanics to carriers you'll realize how terrible this would be.

Moinge wrote:

The only disadvantage will be the warp speed.

Again this is incorrect. Dreads core damage come from being in siege which for you information that would disallow remote assistance. So getting shield and cap would solely come from that pilot, with the nerf coming with the refitting during combat there is no refitting to help the pilot unscrew his/her mistake. As per my last post I explained high threat targets already on field that could do some very serious damage to a triage / siege pilot.

There are other obvious flaws that I wish to not make them as obvious as they are now.

I recommend that you try some private theory crafting to form your own informed feedback so it's unbiased.



The first on was a joke, don't take it to serious ;-)

What exactly is terrible about flying without logis if the carriers can solo tank the sites?


the only disadvantage is warp speed as i stated. there is nothing more because i never said something about using dreads. would you read correctly you'd see that i always spoke about carrier and that i also stated that dreads are uselsess because of their siege.

As it is now you don't get a weapons timer when shooting NPC's so you can still refit on the fly after the changes. If you die in a carrier fleet to incursion rats you did more than a single mistake. i take the stats as they are now with the known changes that are coming. with these facts carriers lose EHP but the local tank will not change much.


And the best thing at the end: why do you recommend me that i think about the stuff on my own? what do you believe what i did? who do you think you are that you can claim that wihtout knowing it? bring facts and not just some empty phrases.


Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#107 - 2016-04-09 02:18:27 UTC
The end result will just be big groups locking down low sec incursions for them to farm to the exculsion of every one else. ie the same thing that happens to lvl 5 missions.

In null it would just mean "bonus money" every few months as an incursion lands in your area. Since enemies can't cyno in, you will be super safe while you stuff the game with more isk it doesn't need.

Incursions would have to be totally reworked (perhaps with wormhole style cap escalations) to make this balanced. Just allowing capitals in as they are now will do nothing but screw the small brave low sec incursion VG running groups and hand a whole lot of wealth to groups that already have lots of caps and super caps.

Bad idea.
Martin Vanzyl
EVE University
Ivy League
#108 - 2016-04-09 12:34:16 UTC
My first thought after reading this was... Shocked

If you really want to go through with this, leave the current sites/mechanics etc alone. Instead, add a series of brand new sites that spawn in Incursions. You can lore this as Sansha finally getting a clue and adjusting tactics and developing new tech etc in response to advancing capsuleer tech and effectiveness combating him.

The new sites will be perfectly doable in subcaps. But the instant you bring a cap through that acceleration gate; a lot more Sansha BS rats spawn and they're perfectly geared towards taking out your capital without FAX logi being on the ball. The payout per pilot of this kind of Escalated Sansha site is therefore proportionally increased by CONCORD in both ISK and LP, to balance Risk/Reward. In addition, you could even have the capital site have a chance to spawn a Sansha Revenant (with appropriate loot) if you bring in enough caps into the site.

You could even make HS versions of the new sites that escalate in the presence of Marauders. (Seriously, that hull needs more use breathed into it other than as a super mission runner and gank target)
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#109 - 2016-04-09 19:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Martin Vanzyl wrote:
My first thought after reading this was... Shocked

If you really want to go through with this, leave the current sites/mechanics etc alone. Instead, add a series of brand new sites that spawn in Incursions. You can lore this as Sansha finally getting a clue and adjusting tactics and developing new tech etc in response to advancing capsuleer tech and effectiveness combating him.

The new sites will be perfectly doable in subcaps. But the instant you bring a cap through that acceleration gate; a lot more Sansha BS rats spawn and they're perfectly geared towards taking out your capital without FAX logi being on the ball. The payout per pilot of this kind of Escalated Sansha site is therefore proportionally increased by CONCORD in both ISK and LP, to balance Risk/Reward. In addition, you could even have the capital site have a chance to spawn a Sansha Revenant (with appropriate loot) if you bring in enough caps into the site.

You could even make HS versions of the new sites that escalate in the presence of Marauders. (Seriously, that hull needs more use breathed into it other than as a super mission runner and gank target)

That is too much work for CCP. CCP is not interested in doing work these days when it comes to that in order to create more activity. They want easy, quick things that do not require a lot of effort.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

roy oakes
boom boom long time
#110 - 2016-04-09 23:48:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks. We've been talking to some incursion-focused players and the CSM about capital ships and lowsec/nullsec incursions, and we'd like to see what the rest of the community thinks. Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept.

With the updates to capital ships coming in the Citadel expansion, it might add some valuable options to low/null incursions if we opened the gated sites up to capital ships. Our initial discussion has indicated that it probably wouldn't be all that overpowered to allow them, and that capitals in fact might not end up being used all that much but that at least opening up the option may allow for some creative experiments and potentially some cool new tactics.

We we're calling on all incursion runners for your feedback: do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion?

I'm very interested to hear what you guys and gals think. As always, I'm especially interested in the reasoning behind your opinions.
Thanks!




what really needs to be done is capital ship incursions, made for capitals, no sub caps through the gates

https://wiki.eveonline.com/?_ga=1.263942732.1175653019.1457937776

camdy1
camdy and Co. inc.
#111 - 2016-04-10 02:13:53 UTC
my thought would be.

cap NPC's taking on player cap's as you would need to up scale the hardness level and instead of a mother ship it would be a titan.

no cyno's in lowsec they still need to use the gate but in 0.0 they can cyno in though if they try to cyno out the npc's focus their fire on the cyno

and make sure the cap fleet still needs logi (what ever the cap version is) and if logi dies they face the same risk of losing their fleet like we do with non cap fleets.
Mars Aspen
Bootstrap Mining
V.e.G.A.
#112 - 2016-04-10 14:47:44 UTC
Yes, yes and yes.
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
#113 - 2016-04-11 05:03:40 UTC
Don't own a capital, but i do fly incursions pretty much all day every day and I've been an FC for WTM for over 2 years, and now am a T badge for TVP.

I think it's a great idea. It can be balanced, just like anything in the game. I think it would open up a lot of options.

Ograst Faluum
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2016-04-11 09:37:51 UTC
Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions
Anthar Thebess
#115 - 2016-04-11 10:11:21 UTC
Ograst Faluum wrote:
Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions

Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them.
Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk Roll
Warmonger Simon
Trinity Alpha Zero
#116 - 2016-04-11 10:33:58 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Ograst Faluum wrote:
Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions

Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them.
Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk Roll


It's not the risk it's the risk/reward. Drifter incursions are not worth it compared to normal low/null and even hi-sec incursions imo.
Ograst Faluum
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2016-04-11 10:49:40 UTC
The main thread of the drifter incursions is the heavy incoming alpha damage imo - so with the hitpoints of a capital you should be doing pretty fine compared to the highsec fleet with their battleships - so you only need to ensure that it would be worth it to run the sites with capitals and you'll might get enough pilots willing to risk their capital against drifters
Anthar Thebess
#118 - 2016-04-11 13:57:20 UTC
Warmonger Simon wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Ograst Faluum wrote:
Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions

Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them.
Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk Roll


It's not the risk it's the risk/reward. Drifter incursions are not worth it compared to normal low/null and even hi-sec incursions imo.

Risk vs reward then.

Reward is to small or risk is to big.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2016-04-11 17:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Moinge wrote:
read again please. i mentioned LOCAL tank, not remote reps.

EFT says to me that an Archon currently has 80k capacitor. an outuni neut caps out around 3k and has a long cycle. what do 40 or more carries with some outunis? they die horribly. so even if the outuni(s) get out more than one cycle it's not a big deal for the cap of a carrier.

a vindicator can do 1.4 to 1.5k m/s. It has to travel nearly 100 km to shoot the tower in a TCRC. As a carrier you warp in and get the fighters on the tower. The fighters are faster than a vindicator and they have more DPS. nothing to add here.

In a TPPH the carriers are slower, yes but you can kill everything while traveling to the next gate. Currently incursion Battleships reach the gate long before the spawn is dead.

In a NRF it's the same loek the TCRC warp in and let the fighters move.

If you fly currently in a battleship the incursions can harm you of course. if you get full stage in some sites and you forget to broadcast for 5 seconds it will be very tough to save you. in some communities you are dead (no names here). in a carrier you problably have enough ehp to survive until the aggro is switching even without repping.



I misunderstood your post. Perhaps this will cover it a bit better:

The tank doesn't really matters. Most incursion groups don't lose BSs, because they've min-maxed, and found the minimum tank required to survive. Even the imperium incursion group has only lost a handful of battleships over our lifetime in sites. If an incrsion group brings BS or caps, their risk of losing a ship to the rats is still about the same. Caps have a larger margin for error, beacuse their buffer is larger, but a higher cost if you do screw up. I'm sure you can come up with several different ways to tank the rats, and they'll all work quite well. But they will all be in the same, which is basically 0 chance of losing a ship to rats.

I agree that the Otunis won't be a massive risk, but they aren't currently a huge risk anyhow. You primary the otunis, and feed cap to the guy who has agro. The risk of stepping out where hostiles can shoot you is much greater then the lower risk from the Otunis.

Your argument about the fighters travel time I think is really important. What are their flight times like, post-patch? assuming it's 3k/sec:
For VGs: The fighters will have to cover ~50km for most waves, which is 12 seconds before it even applies damage, each wave. So that's about 45 extra seconds of travel time, before damage is applied. That's a very, very long time in VGs, where you're often in site less then 200secs.
For HQ TPPHs: Learn to fly TPPHs with a better group. If you're matching the good hisec times, all the rats should be down before you get to the gate. Travel speed will still be your bottleneck. If you're not matching the good hisec site times, then this isn't a problem.
For HQ NRFs: The fighters will have to travel ~20s during each wave, before it applies damage, and there are still a fair number of rats. They will have to bounce between the different rats that love to spread out. I think there will be some site speed improvement, but I don't think you'll be able to do it twice as fast or anything dumb like that.
For HQ TCRCs: they are already doable in 6 minutes in hisec. The warp times and align times will be big bottlenecks, and the fighters still have to travel 70km to the tower, you still have to have someone burn over to the mtac factory and mtac. You still have to have logi in the right position to rep the mtac'er, and so the fleet can't be right on top of the gate. I think those elements will prevent the site from being done much faster then they are now.

Right now there's almost no risk from flying incursions in hisec in BS, heck... even with terrible goons, I think we've only lost a handful of battleships in sites to rats. (We lose them far more often to the gate rats then anything else). Once you get a good group going, the logis can follow lasers and will rep people that forget to broadcast. The baddie normally get chewed out for doing so, and needs some armor reps, but they survive. Most incursion BS have about half their tank in shield, and half in armor. You get reps before you go into armor nearly every time.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#120 - 2016-04-13 19:22:31 UTC
I'm fine with it. Capital hunters rejoice!

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY