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March release - General feedback

First post
Author
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#441 - 2016-03-14 16:38:11 UTC
Can I ask why this bothers you?

It'd be a different story if skills would go above level V, but I fail to grasp what useful information you extract from character age given the fact you can be adept in ONE ship in a few short months. More training merely opens up more options, does it not?

And don't PvPers usually argue that it's PLAYER skill, not CHARACTER skill that counts?

....well then?
Skipper Riddles
Ivory Vanguard
#442 - 2016-03-14 16:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Skipper Riddles
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Can I ask why this bothers you?

It'd be a different story if skills would go above level V, but I fail to grasp what useful information you extract from character age given the fact you can be adept in ONE ship in a few short months. More training merely opens up more options, does it not?

And don't PvPers usually argue that it's PLAYER skill, not CHARACTER skill that counts?

....well then?


From a PvP'r okay point taken. I however try to take FULL advantage of the game. PI, Trading, Exploration, Mining, New Eden is huge with a lot to do. It takes more than 1 ship and a handful of skills to maintain this adventure. I started in 2013. I have worked hard to skill and learn these other careers. In doing this, I still have a great deal of training to go. I still cannot place all the command centers on planets, Rather than list everything, I'll use just that one example. By pulling out your wallet, you can now accomplish every career offered, do it better and make a lot more ISK. THEN, use that ISK to play for free. If you cannot see where I am going with this. Then there is no need to further this conversation.

EvE is more than just flying around shooting people.

Prediction: Decline in Tranquility hit has little to do with DUST 514 closing, and the decline has only just begun.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#443 - 2016-03-14 17:02:08 UTC
.......but this is nothing new, is it? Before Februari, people bought characters with - you guessed it: ISK. Now they don't buy the character, they buy the injectors. It's arguably cleaner this way.

Even without skillpoints in the picture, Real-Life rich folks can buy all the deadspace mods / researched BPOs / ... they want. So, what of it?
CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#444 - 2016-03-14 17:05:08 UTC
Thanks for all watchlist feedback great and small, thoughtful and mean! Lol

We'll be discussing this as a team and I'll endeavour to get some responses on your points and suggestions.

Thanks for your patience!

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#445 - 2016-03-14 17:46:07 UTC
Honestly I'd like to see things go a step further and separate skill training from the ability to log in entirely. Quite a few of my accounts solely exist for the purpose of specialized alts (supercaps, boosters, cynos, scouts, etc). Once these specialized chars are fully skilled to where I need them to be, further training is essentially useless. There's a certain hard limit to how much SP a specialized character can actually use; a titan character certainly doesnt need any SP in subcaps for example.

It would be awesome if instead of simply paying 1 plex to log in AND train for a month, you could choose whether you had the ability to log in without activating a skillqueue for two months. I do realize that you can already extract enough SP per month through normal training to pay for a decent portion of a plex but it's irritating to go to Jita/etc to actually sell the injectors, especially if you need to find a holding alt for supercapitals.

Going even further down that path, my dream scenario would be where the 3 character per account limit was eliminated entirely and you instead paid for the desired amount of characters that you wished to login and/or train concurrently. Would probably pressure the financials too much to ever happen since a lot of players would significantly downsize their subscription numbers but to me that sort of system makes much more sense.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#446 - 2016-03-14 17:58:35 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Thanks for all watchlist feedback great and small, thoughtful and mean! Lol

We'll be discussing this as a team and I'll endeavour to get some responses on your points and suggestions.

Thanks for your patience!

no worries , here is some further discussion we have been having on the topic .
Skipper Riddles
Ivory Vanguard
#447 - 2016-03-14 18:10:53 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
.......but this is nothing new, is it? Before Februari, people bought characters with - you guessed it: ISK. Now they don't buy the character, they buy the injectors. It's arguably cleaner this way.

Even without skillpoints in the picture, Real-Life rich folks can buy all the deadspace mods / researched BPOs / ... they want. So, what of it?


So your saying that the individual that took the time to build those skills, who sells the character and get something back for him/her self; Is now over shaded by an injector that CCP can take advantage of more so than the player who took the time, money, and effort to train?
Sola Atruin
Mutant Space Kittens
#448 - 2016-03-14 18:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sola Atruin
Regarding the "buddy list" formerly known as the "watch list":

Problem:

With this change it'll become very exhausting and time-consuming to bring *cough* "content" into wormholes. Ugh

How should a j-space content agent know if a wormhole is worth staying for a couple of days and stalk... errr "entertain" its inhabitants with free content?

Me personally, I don't have time to sit all day and watch a POS until my targets come online.
It was also a very useful tool to evaluate when, where and how to make a move.

Wormholes are already pretty empty sometimes. Why did you make it even more difficult to get the right people together to create some content?

Idea:

Maybe such information doesn't have to come for totally free?

Maybe it could be a special service from a special NPC corp, like for example, some sort of "Information Brokers" (maybe an additional service from a locator agent?) who can be found all over New Eden, very delusive, very dubious, everybody needs them but nobody likes them and not very popular especially amongst the empire factions?

Of course, a player who would seek out such services (for LP and/or ISK) had to build positive standing towards such corporations and would loose standing towards the empire forces, but in return he would be able to gather special information about other players, like, for example, when they are online. The service could be activated from anywhere but would only, depending on the contract, last for a couple of hours to a couple of days.

Further more it would be also possible for a player to protect himself from such services, and disappear from all hostile watch lists for a while or even gather information about who currently has a watch list contract against him.

And of course somebody who seeks out such services would most likely get better prices and more powerful services in more lawless regions of New Eden!



Best regards,

Sola Atruin Pirate
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#449 - 2016-03-14 19:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hey all,

Just dropping by to shed some light on the watch list->buddy list change that was done by Team Five 0 in this release, and the reasoning behind it.

For a long time the watch list has had two main use cases: tracking the online status of friends, and tracking enemies of one kind or another. While we were happy with the first use case, for some time we've had design concerns about the latter. There are a couple of reasons for this. Firstly, the information provided is 100% accurate all the time without any risk to the pilot’s receiving it. This means that the best (and really only) choice for a pilot is to add enemies, as it doesn’t cost them anything and they don’t put themselves at any risk by doing it. We've discussed before how we’re not really keen on non choices in New Eden (See the clone removal for one example of this). Secondly, a pilot concerned about people watching them has no in-game choice to counter this overpowered source of information. They can either log in and face the fact that notifications have instantly appeared for everyone wanting to hurt them, or simply not play. As you can imagine, that’s not a choice that we really want to encourage!

We understand that for many people, this will fundamentally change the way you can use the (now renamed) buddy list, and we apologize for any short term inconvenience this may cause. We’re happy to discuss any use cases we may have neglected and any suggestions for future iteration that don’t contradict the reasoning outlined above.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!


Two use cases - It had more than two use cases. It had a third huge use case of tracking status of people who are neither mutual friends nor enemies. It could be a newbie you’re helping, a diplo, a prospect you want to talk to in person to find out more etc. It had a 4th use case of dealing with the realities of this being a game and disconnects/logon/logoff being a thing. This seems so elementary I can’t even comprehend having to explain this. If you’re going to ban the watchlist you should make disconnecting, logging in and logging off to engage or avoid combat illegal.

Design concerns… where do you come up with these specifically? Is there an overarching design of what EVE should be like because it seems every dev team has their own. All you’re doing is pulling EVE in a hundred different directions and frustrating the players in the process. Let’s break it down.

100% accurate information - yes it’s a basic status that tell you whether someone is online or not, kinda important in a game which is about interacting with other people. There are a million use cases of 100% accurate information at no risk to the pilot receiving it. Local, dscan, market, alts, cloaking, cargo scanners, spies, killboards, etc. There’s nothing wrong with certain information being 100% accurate at no risk or cost including knowing whether or not someone “exists” in the universe or is offline.

Non choice - I agree with this concept but it doesn’t apply here. It is certainly a choice. It is a choice you could ignore because it takes effort. It takes effort to track down and find all of your “enemies.” It takes effort to add them to watchlist and having to manage that information. It still doesn’t tell you where they are or what they’re doing or what they’re flying so it gives you the opportunity to make choices of what to do when your enemies are online. Without that information, you’re always operating in the same mode regardless if a single one of your enemies is logged in, I call that a non choice.

Countering this overpowered source of information - Really? Knowing whether or not someone is online in a video game is an overpower source of information? Knowinig whether or not someone exists in a universe as an entity or is in some parallel universe with his accounts unsubbed for months is an overpower source of information? Isn’t doing the research, finding out who your enemies are and watchlisting them too a counter in itself? What is the counter to getting hot dropped? You don’t think that the ability for every frigate or cruiser to spawn a hellmob on top of your solo ship at any time with no warning or counter other than hot dropping yourself is overpowered?

Log in or not play - So here we are. This entire change that nerfed our ability to interact with and contact each other, to rediscover old friends, to make new ones, to open doors of opportunity, to manage time in finding targets and gameplay, it was all done because of people who don’t even log in because others might know that they’re online. I usually try to consider everyone's playstyle but in this case, **** them. This is an MMO about working with and against other people. If their only gameplay choice is either not being seen by others or not playing, **** them, they don’t belong here. I can’t think of a single use case where this would apply. And before you say super/titan alts, these are huge strategic assets that require alliance level support. This is why they can't dock in stations. Get a defence fleet up, have them setup a POS, set up the cyno chains, get everyone ready, log in and move your Super/Titan to where it needs to be.

Suggestions coming in the next post.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#450 - 2016-03-14 19:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hey all,

Just dropping by to shed some light on the watch list->buddy list change that was done by Team Five 0 in this release, and the reasoning behind it.



We understand that for many people, this will fundamentally change the way you can use the (now renamed) buddy list, and we apologize for any short term inconvenience this may cause. We’re happy to discuss any use cases we may have neglected and any suggestions for future iteration that don’t contradict the reasoning outlined above.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!


The obvious suggestion would be to bring it back in its old form, but that being highly unlikely here are some other:


  1. I think the need for setting your status visible to everyone or better yet granularly based on standings/corp/alliance/everyone etc. has been abundantly clear. Preferably make this an opt out feature so that newbies and others who don't care about being invisible are not forced to change yet another setting.

  2. Add ability to mass edit/watchlist/send notification to the other party. Dealing with hundreds of contacts is a pain in the ass.

  3. Without a watchlist, login/logoff tactics to avoid or engage in combat have become extremely overpowered. There’s no counter to seeing someone who’s not online. Making them illegal would be nearly impossible to enforce without a watchlist so I would suggest either:
    • Keeping all ships logged off in space visible at all times (terrible idea imo)
    • Make it so that when a person logs in they are unable to do anything for a period of 1-5 minutes (can’t undock, warp, jump, engage in combat etc.) In this case they would need to be invulnerable during this timer and if they log off before it expires they are safely removed. Make logging off in space take longer to despawn your ship and keep you in local chat or notify others some other way that you are indeed still in system and have not jumped out.

  4. Possibly bring back the watchlist with the ability to “go off the grid.” This would make that person not visible to others but would also make it so they can’t see anyone else’s status either, pissibly with other penalties like unable to join fleets etc. Of course this could be worked around with alts but I think it would be an acceptable solution in most cases.

  5. Rework locator agents. Currently, lower level agents are pretty useless. All locator agents should be able to search for targets everywhere but lower level agents should take much longer, have a longer cooldown and be a lot more expensive. Lower the cooldown timer between searches for top tier agents. This would encourage people to rely on network of players with good standings but also expand the options you have at your disposal.

  6. If you have the resources, further rework locator agents to be able to track target’s movement when they jump through gates/dock at NPC stations. Rework them to show the target’s last known location and time. If a target uses a stargate to jump into system XYZ and then goes through a wormhole to another system, the agent would tell you that the target was last seen jumping into XYZ at this date or time. Have them track a target for x amount of time and have them track multiple targets at once.

  7. If you really have the resources, completely overhaul how the tracking/watchlist system works. Put it in players hands. Allow player corporations to build networks of scanning structures that monitor an activity in the system and are able to track multiple targets. Have it cost a bit of fuel, make it shareable with others so that corporation X with a good tracking network in the Forge region can share/sell that intel to other players. Make it possible for different corporations to link their intel networks into a bigger one. This would encourage cooperation, give players an ability to develop their space, give others reason to attack it, etc.


There have been some other interesting suggestions in this thread that I won’t re-list but you can check them out here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6387332#post6387332
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6387479#post6387479
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6388627#post6388627

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Beldantazar
Empyrean Acolytes
#451 - 2016-03-14 21:13:41 UTC
Skipper Riddles wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
.......but this is nothing new, is it? Before Februari, people bought characters with - you guessed it: ISK. Now they don't buy the character, they buy the injectors. It's arguably cleaner this way.

Even without skillpoints in the picture, Real-Life rich folks can buy all the deadspace mods / researched BPOs / ... they want. So, what of it?


So your saying that the individual that took the time to build those skills, who sells the character and get something back for him/her self; Is now over shaded by an injector that CCP can take advantage of more so than the player who took the time, money, and effort to train?


But the injectors are made from other players' skill points. You can't buy the injectors from CCP, you can only get them from other players. Every single skillpoint you see on the market was already trained up by somone. So the only difference between this and buying a character is that the character's name is different.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#452 - 2016-03-15 04:05:17 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Thanks for all watchlist feedback great and small, thoughtful and mean! Lol

We'll be discussing this as a team and I'll endeavour to get some responses on your points and suggestions.

Thanks for your patience!


Thank you CCP Lebowski. I'm looking forward to communications from your team on the matter. Your efforts, although late are not unappreciated.

Suggestion to maybe open an official thread on the matter so more people get to participate in the discussion.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#453 - 2016-03-15 05:02:10 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Thanks for all watchlist feedback great and small, thoughtful and mean! Lol

We'll be discussing this as a team and I'll endeavour to get some responses on your points and suggestions.

Thanks for your patience!

Check this thread too
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=472298
Eric de'Locke
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#454 - 2016-03-15 09:15:53 UTC
Skipper Riddles wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Can I ask why this bothers you?

It'd be a different story if skills would go above level V, but I fail to grasp what useful information you extract from character age given the fact you can be adept in ONE ship in a few short months. More training merely opens up more options, does it not?

And don't PvPers usually argue that it's PLAYER skill, not CHARACTER skill that counts?

....well then?


From a PvP'r okay point taken. I however try to take FULL advantage of the game. PI, Trading, Exploration, Mining, New Eden is huge with a lot to do. It takes more than 1 ship and a handful of skills to maintain this adventure. I started in 2013. I have worked hard to skill and learn these other careers. In doing this, I still have a great deal of training to go. I still cannot place all the command centers on planets, Rather than list everything, I'll use just that one example. By pulling out your wallet, you can now accomplish every career offered, do it better and make a lot more ISK. THEN, use that ISK to play for free. If you cannot see where I am going with this. Then there is no need to further this conversation.

EvE is more than just flying around shooting people.

Prediction: Decline in Tranquility hit has little to do with DUST 514 closing, and the decline has only just begun.


Dude I've also been playing since 2013 and you know what, other than the first few months, or when I couldn't play Eve, I haven't paid real life money to play; and I have 3 accounts. There are so many ways to make lots of ISK if you put the time and effort into it no matter what your in-game skill level is. Skill Injectors may allow your character to do something quickly, but it's the player that has to figure out how to do it correctly. It doesn't matter if he now makes a ton of ISK to play for free as he's already used RL money to max out his skills, which consequently is more expensive than plexing his account.
Trevize Demerzel
#455 - 2016-03-15 10:57:33 UTC
Tavr wrote:
Are CCP lowering the age limit ? Coz new kill graphics and sounds will only appeal to 9yo.
Aweful just aweful.
Auto subscribe now removed!!!




Ummm not true! My 9 year old son asked me to turn off the gong sound. He said it was annoying!

-

Lara Divinity
Pidgeon Cartel
#456 - 2016-03-15 15:38:26 UTC
was it intended to remove the tracer line from the tactical overlay with this update or is it just another bug ...these days idk anymore ?
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc.
The Bastion
#457 - 2016-03-15 16:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: marly cortez
Raphendyr Nardieu wrote:
To let the team know. I think many who used the option "disable station environment" would be ok if that feature would be reimplemented with simple static background. Even jsut black colour would be enough. Basically, something so the client doesn't need to do any 3d stuff on stations. Doesn't need to look anything or show your own ship. To my understanding the old/removed system created one (1) rebder if the 3d system and then used that render as background, so we don't need anything even that complicated.

If I understood correctly, the citadels are getting simple 2d background for now (subcap ships). Any case, the citadel had/has small wireframe image of your ship in top right and "undock" under it (saw that in development on duality). So basically if you add something like that or just ship icon (as shown in hangar inventory page) above "undock" button, on would know in what ship he is.

If implemented like this that there is only black background I think one could even drop that option from every patch test set and a) let users of that feature to send bugs if they occur or test it 2 times a year, to check it's still ok.

Personally, I'm fine without it, though I tend to use it with my laptop when playing with it.

ps. could this be option "Interior Effects: Disabled".




Not a bad idea really, have often thought that the Station environment facility is something that players really needed to have basic options on, The minimalist ideal would be for a simple screen shot indicating that the player was actually in a station and not in Space as a background render overlaid by the station hangar tree, Which when you break it down is all you really need to have on the screen alongside the chat windows and station services.

This has been a creeping problem in Eve for years now were Dev's scribble out ideas based on Console type graphics believing in their very soul that the player base, really, really, REALLY!, needs this for game satisfaction, Loading up the game with fancy graphics simply because they can and never stopping to think for one moment on what is actually required to play Eve or even offer that option.

That is the true nature of the problem here ' Spud' mode being forced on many players who cannot afford to build maxi spec computers and find even the most basic settings still out strip there machines graphics capabilities reducing there game satisfaction with each new update feature designed by people to whom graphics capabilities are not a consideration on any level.

Not saying CCP are wrong in there attempts to improve graphics overall, Just pointing out that this myopic view is one they need to reconsider rather than by default introduce a real credit card barrier.

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.

Miner499er
Quantum Industrial Corporation
#458 - 2016-03-17 05:11:12 UTC
Seriously.... Taking away the contact list and changing it to the buddy system has got to be one of the dumbest things you guys have done. Put it back the way it was and get rid of all the extra bongs and LARGE red x's. As a lot of people are saying its annoying and I think adds a dumbness to the game. CCP's success comes from pleasing the people who pay you not pissing them off.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#459 - 2016-03-17 05:14:44 UTC
As far as the watchlist I will just say I used to use it in order to see if someone in local used ogb. If they did I would add them so I didn't fight them anymore.

Now I don't really need to know when they log off or log on. I would just use it so the extra symbol allowed me to easilly tell something about them. Perhaps allow players to add certain symbols to other players beyond the standings settings.

As for the other changes I feel this is good for the game and I generally like the changes as whole. However eve is becoming very high maintenance to keep up with. I would ask that ccp not keep making small adjustments every few months unless something really needs it. Some stability in the game is good for players who may be returning to the game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Eric de'Locke
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#460 - 2016-03-17 10:52:33 UTC
Hey

Was wondering if you guys would word the Cluster Shutdown notification a little differently. When I first saw it I thought that dowwtime was about to commence and I had 5 minutes to get to saftly. Hell, I even logged off. Here's what I recommend:

Cluster Shutdown Preperation - for the 1 hour mark.
Cluster Shutdown Eminent - for the 15 minute mark.
Cluster Shutdown Initiated - for the 5 minute mark.