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Dev blog: Unboxing the new Camera in EVE Online

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stalkerzzz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#301 - 2016-02-13 01:34:26 UTC
Please bring the tracking camera back!!!!!
RuleoftheBone
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#302 - 2016-02-13 07:00:56 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the February release (deployed on February 9), we have also introduced a new default camera.

The previous camera was based on quite old code and was due for a rewrite. Now we have a system where multiple, special purposed cameras can happily live side by side to give you the best view possible of New Eden!



Hi,

While I have no issue with "new views" in and of itself.....your new camera implantation has significant and severe negative effects on actual game play.

In a nutshell the new camera simply does not play well with tracking other ships in conjunction with dscan and has similar floating issues with the tactical display.

All things being equal I could cheerfully illustrate this by challenging you (or whoever) to simply jump into a system and pinpoint my location using the new camera/dscan. Having tried this over and over with the new camera I had no choice but to disable it and return to legacy as the speed of target acquisition was dramatically increased thanks to the wonky new camera.

Pretty is one thing....functional is what actual pilots need for the most part.

And the unstable tactical overlay is not pleasant. Have you tried de-cloaking maneuvers in w-space?

I would appreciate NOT being given an ultimatum to use a system that is clearly not ready for prime time. It is no different than the pretty but not overly functional (and those colors dude) new map.

I am just a 2 account subscriber and while I don't really plan to vote with my wallet and do some sort of rage quit.....but would appreciate some consideration in allowing the game to remain fully playable.

Cheers

Bone
Jarrec DuMorne
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#303 - 2016-02-13 09:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarrec DuMorne
... I have never before posted in this forum, even though I really did not like many of the decisions, that have been made in the last 1-2 years. However, this latest development is highly disconcerning to me. No matter how much effort and planning went into this new camera, it is simply inferior to the old one and this can not be fixed by a few simple tweaks. You are approaching the probleme under the wrong premises.

Please leave the old camera as it is. Forget about the new one.

There is nothing wrong with the old camera, it does a very good job. Who cares if the code is 15 years old. I havent tested the new camera much, and to be honest, I hope I never have to. From what I have seen and experienced it impairs your ability to control the game, especially under hectic circumstances. The reasons for that have been stated in previous posts and I will not repeat them again.

If you really want to make a new camera, you will have to go back to the drawing board. The new camera has to be simple, responsive and must allow you to control your ship effectively. Think about how programs like 3Dmax work. It should not "look good", be fancy or cinematic. You have to be able to "work with it". And chances are you would realize that the old camera is actually pretty difficult to improve on.

I really hope CCP can pull the emergency brake on this one in time. I agree to this post 100%:

Quote:
I am just a 2 account subscriber and while I don't really plan to vote with my wallet and do some sort of rage quit.....but would appreciate some consideration in allowing the game to remain fully playable.



PS: Wait, you actually removed the right-click look arround and zoom function?? I use that every day, what the hell!
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#304 - 2016-02-13 09:34:08 UTC
Removing the existing camera, which may well be old but is just so user friendly and performs well for everyday game play - Mission running, Scanning, PVP, etc - And replacing it with a not so user friendly camera designed specifically for all the budding video makers (free advertising for CCP) really is just the next in a line of additions to the game that indicate - CCP ranks player concerns as "not important" once they have made a decision

Simple most effective thing to do with this would be to have 2 cameras. One for general game play, the second for the cinematic type who want to make pretty videos.

There may also be those who may find, in the middle of a fight that detaching from their ship and losing all perspective of whats happening right next to them, interesting.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
DJB16
DJB Alpha
#305 - 2016-02-13 09:41:09 UTC
DJB16 wrote:
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Hello everyone!

• Atmospheric noises in Tactical and First Person cameras are too loud
We are tweaking these today.

Fly safe
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters



dont just tweek the damn thing

GIVE US THE OPTION TO TURN THEM OFF TOTALY



ill say is again dont just tweek the NOISE give us the ability to REMOVE THE NOISE without muting EVERYTHING
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2016-02-13 10:57:20 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Hey guys, one last update from us before the weekend.

First of all, thanks for all the feedback. We can’t answer everyone‘s questions and concerns, but rest assured we are actively monitoring the forums.

To the players that feel nauseous when using the camera, please try playing with some of the camera settings in the Esc menu. Try turning of dynamic FOV and speed offset, and try increasing the camera speed. If you still experience nausea or discomfort, please continue to provide further details with the settings you have tried.


This sadly does not solve the sea-sickness problem. Keep the old camera as an option.

Not seen it mentioned, but: Instantly zooming to your ship with ALT+leftclick in space does not work with the new camera.
Pycu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#307 - 2016-02-13 11:07:34 UTC
Commander Nina Hanomaa wrote:
Hello,

With the new camera, I am not able too "look around" when holding right mouse button like I was used to. From the Dev Blog I couldn't tell if this is a feature or a bug. Nevertheless is bothering me way more than it should. Roll


I'm interested in this as I use this feature a lot. Looking around and zooming into any direction is useful. The new camera seems restricting in a way.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#308 - 2016-02-13 11:56:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Hey CCP, could you please do something about the weird vertical movement of the camera? It's so slow!

Could you also NOT put track and look at ABOVE "jump through stargate" (which should be on top of the list) in the autopilot square previews right click? :D

And finally, could the tactical camera remembers if the tactical overlay was on or off last time we used it?

Edit: Oh and, re-enable right click to turn the camera in the orbit camera. In the tactical camera, right click pans the camera, and that's legit. But in orbit camera, it does nothing anyway, so better re-enable it!

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#309 - 2016-02-13 12:02:22 UTC
Just realized that you want us to post here now, so I am just copy and pasting from the other thread

Orbiting Camera
When I tried the new orbiting camera for the first time it felt weird and gave me a sick feeling (motion sickness?). So I tried to find out what caused it and noticed that the ship was not truly centred all the time. Later I found out that this was this "Feature"
Quote:
Ship position on screen is offset based on the speed vector of your ship, giving a much improved sense of speed and movement.

So I deactivated that "Feature" I disabled other options like camera bobbing and so on on the old camera already. After removing that FOV thing aswell the camera felt somewhat okay (so after I disabled all cinematic features)

Increasing the camera speed to 2.5-3 times made it feel somewhat sharp (still a little bit washy though) and responsive and fast (this is actually better than the old camera in my opinion - when I switched back to the old camera later I missed the the faster scrolling and movement)

Anyway with all those settings disabled the camera actually felt good, and I thought I could get used to it. Then I scouted the chain saw a couple of active towers on d-scan, so I wanted to scan them down.
"Oh damnit, there is no tracking camera - well I guess I'll have to click C every single time I want to try a different moon, that is anoying - oh well." *Clicks C* Camera moves around, like usual the ship moves in front of the moon, ...
... but the camera doesn't stop there and the ship drifts to the side of the sceen.Shocked
This is already odd enough - I mean I disabled this stupid "Feature" that the ship position gets offset already, so I don't want it to be different for the tracking camera. But the worst thing is still coming:
It does not show the tower at 5°.
But the moon I am looking at, is the only moon that is at the correct range. So I warp there anyway and find the POS.

At this point the new camera died for me.
- Longer look at range
- Faster Movement (even though it could maybe be a little bit more precise)
- Multilock is nice
All those features don't matter if there is no working tracking camera. Please bring that camera back and fix that ship offset - or at least give the option to disable that aswell Roll.

I always thought of EVEs UI as one of the best game UIs because it doesn't have any unnecessary gimmicks that "are cool" but an artless tool you can modify, which helps you against your enemy. I don't want to have to fight the UI first, so that I can fight the enemy after that. Like a doctor doesn't want a sword instead of a scalpel just because some people think that would be cool. I want a UI that feels empowering not annoying.

Tactical Camera
Generally very nice. A single key to center the camera position back on your own ship without searching it in space and clicking "look at" would probably help a lot. I didn't experiment too much with it yet. Still have to try if manual piloting works in that. Probably not as good as in orbit camera, but will see.

First Person Camera
Nice Gimmick.
That is about it.
Korozaa Akuma
Yomi-no-kuni
#310 - 2016-02-13 13:36:33 UTC
I don't know if its been said in the previous 300 posts.... but whenever using "look at" with the new camera. It automatically disables as soon as the target starts to align for warp, where as the old system it did not disable till warp was actually initiated.
Vulcan Xadi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2016-02-13 14:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulcan Xadi
I'd like to support the previous posts.

The default settings introduce nausea and the tracking toggle button is something I've comfortably used for years. I can see that some of the issues have been fixed, but it seems clear that it should never have been rolled out to the live environment in the first place, without a lot more testing.

I only know one thing about game development, and that's that a developer should never get between the player and the game. Messing with the game controls is annoying and seems like a very silly mistake (proven by the previous 16 pages of comments).

So, please return the functionality of the previous camera, add as much as you like afterwards but don't take away.
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#312 - 2016-02-13 15:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyranis Marcus
The new cameras are not good. Things don't work as described. The C key now does nothing at all for me. The orbit camera breaks easily, and I have to turn the new camera off and back on to get a recognizable view of anything back. With 8 wardecs going on, I don't have time for this game ruining #$!%@#~.

GIVE US BACK TOGGLE TRACKING MODE VIA THE C KEY.

Never EVER remove the option to opt out from this.

edit: Removed the cusswords and stuff....sorry about that.

Do not run. We are your friends.
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#313 - 2016-02-13 15:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Ripley
Mil Hegirin wrote:
Some reasons I don't use the new camera


  • D-Scan is harder to use - lost functionality
  • C must be held down to use the tracking camera. Every. Single. Time.
  • The Fishbowl effect - most pronounced when warping
  • Camera inertia - literally worthless
  • The tactical grid camera's pivot point is nigh impossible to manipulate, making it largely useless for subcaps
  • First person is cool, but has no practical value
  • FOV sliding. RIP my sense of distance. RIP my ability to make minor adjustments on the fly


Many of the changes are cool for movie makers, and clunky for everyone else. Clunky means poor design

Oh look. This must be a copy of at least half of the posts in the test server feedback thread... Roll

EDIT: I can't get the inverted zoom direction to work with the new camera. Does anyone know if it is even working?
Jarrec DuMorne
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#314 - 2016-02-13 15:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarrec DuMorne
So, i have done a little bit of testing, and its actually true, that most of the stuff that makes this new camera unusable can be switched off. A few points remain...

* Right-click Freelook and Zoom is important and does not work in the current version
* The tracking camera with adjustable point of interest, as many others have described

I would still rather use the old one, but if these points get fixed, I guess I can live with it... (It still boggles my mind that such effort is being invested into making the game a worse experience...)
Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#315 - 2016-02-13 15:50:20 UTC
Re.; New Camera

Prognosis; a 'new camera' is being introduced for use to replace the 'old camera' and it's subsequent variations there of.

Analysis; after numerous consultations regarding this new camera and numerous comments I feel that even then CCP does NOT know of the possible resulting use in regards to motion sickness that's been stated so far would have an undesirable effect and therefore render a user unable to commit to any action desired.

Analysis; new camera does NOT give a 'feel' of cinematics as claimed by CCP.

Analysis, Auto Tracking removed, numerous key inputs to track other objects are required to accomplish what was a very simple click in the old camera.

Analysis, Instead of a complete all-in-one package as the old camera is used, I question the reasoning behind going with "Three" cameras and their use, and also the reasoning behind introducing more keyboard short cuts to accomplish one simple act of camera usage.

Summary; While it is regarded as a Quality of Life improvement, it's very evident that CCP is not going to back down and take a look at what's been said, and proceed to "force" this change no matter what's been said, and to remove an old stable camera that has enjoyed such success in the time gone by

The older camera while written on older code is in my opinion far more useful than what this new camera is and beats the new camera fair and square. Given a time line of just a few weeks of removing the old camera will have undesirable results to all parties concerned

While I also agree with a number of people already that if and when the day comes that I am forced to use the new camera, then it's so long it was a nice ride while it lasted.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#316 - 2016-02-13 21:14:34 UTC
Good

* Orbit / 3rd person gives a nice perspective and scale to the ships

* Despite not seeing a direct purpose I do like 1st person camera view

No-So-Good

* Please re-enable the right click to look around. I had to disable new camera controls because I'm so used to using right click to look around and both buttons to then zoom

* Camera pan / ship rotation feels sluggish in 3rd person / orbit

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Harrigan VonStudly
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#317 - 2016-02-13 23:07:35 UTC
I don't like the new camera at all. The speed setting is ok. It's a nice feature to add to the old camera. Removing tracking by clicking on an object, be it on the overview, or in space, is a huge huge mistake. I hope you do NOT do that.

The first person camera is useless imo. It may be ok for those weirdos sitting there making airplane engine noises while shooting rats.

Really do not want to see the tracking feature removed. Maybe make it on/off. Having to hit "c" every time is ass.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#318 - 2016-02-14 00:18:05 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Hey guys, one last update from us before the weekend.

First of all, thanks for all the feedback. We can’t answer everyone‘s questions and concerns, but rest assured we are actively monitoring the forums.

To the players that feel nauseous when using the camera, please try playing with some of the camera settings in the Esc menu. Try turning of dynamic FOV and speed offset, and try increasing the camera speed. If you still experience nausea or discomfort, please continue to provide further details with the settings you have tried.

Now on to D-Scan. We have been bouncing around some ideas and came up with a new prototype way to D-Scan that I just put up on our Singularity test server where it will remain over the weekend. If you have the time and interest, please try getting on there and trying it out. It works like this: Hold down V and click something to D-scan it. V also opens up the D-scan window if it is not already open, and is a bindable shortcut key. Yes, you still have to hold down a keyboard button to scan quickly, but it only takes 1 click and the results begin populating instantly in the D-scan window. This effectively reduces keystrokes and speeds up the whole process, making it faster and easier than ever before! After a scan, the ‘Scan’ button grays out until the 2 second cooldown has elapsed, at which point the button blinks a little bit to let you know you can perform a new scan. Please leave any feedback for this prototype feature in this thread.

Hope you all have an awesome spaceship-filled weekend,
CCP Turtlebutt // Team Psycho Sisters


So I am kinda digging the V-click thing, but what is with the slow fade in readout? Nerf to dscan incoming?

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Drake III
Blame The Bunny
#319 - 2016-02-14 01:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake III
Is there a way to keep the view always centered on the ship in orbit view? Bugs me when the ship is off to one side during warp

nvm found it and a lot more usable for me now
Dalto Bane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2016-02-14 01:54:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Manic Velocity wrote:
According to the devblog, by this time next month you won't have a choice between the two. It will no longer be "the new camera", it will just be "the camera".

Holy ****. I didn't even see that.

CCP, listen very carefully now:

You CANNOT remove the option for the old, working camera without having fully and completely recreated every last aspect of it in your new system. All of it. No exception. No “kind of the same, but…”, and definitely no “it's better now because…”.

It must have every singe option and functionality that the old camera has: the direct and precise movement; the simple look-at and tracking functionality; the ability to track warps; the ability to simply rclick-unhook the camera from its current direction and then have it immediately snap back; always focusing on your ship etc etc etc. All the things people have been telling you for ages now.

If you remove it, there are no two ways about it and no delicate way of saying it: you are stupid. You are incompetent. You are not actually listening to the wave of feedback you're getting, and any attempt at claiming otherwise is a lie. Stop it. Step back, swallow your pride, stop blubbering, and give your customers the one thing they're asking for: a properly working camera. Remember what happens every time you have an “awesome” idea that doesn't work in practice, and realise that this is one of those moments. Again.

Jesus ******* christ. Why does this keep happening?! How are you so incapable of learning such a ridiculously simple lesson?! WTF is wrong with you? Shocked


Truth. It is hard for me to believe that you are not allowing the old cam to remain as an alternative indefinitely given the feedback thus far.

Keep old tracking cam the way it is, bring back right click pan, keep zoom and x-y pan and rotate on the same strength without the give it has now. Functionality over aesthetics.

Drops Mic