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Dev blog: Unboxing the new Camera in EVE Online

First post First post First post
Author
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2016-02-14 19:33:40 UTC
Joffy Aulx-Gao wrote:

As a disabled player who is a lowsec pirate, the d-scan changes will negatively impact me if they remain as stated above. I am unable to use a keyboard except for an onscreen one, and this makes me unable to hold a keybind down while clicking in space. Whilst I realise that the changes may be beneficial, I would request that the current method of camera tracking d-scan remain available as an option, perhaps as a toggle option.


CCP could care less about a persons handicap, those tiny space icons are proof of that, I have bad eyesight and had to drastically change my play style because of them, all I needed was the old style icons as an option but that was too much work to appease a small portion of the player base so was omitted.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Kazi Kugisa
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#342 - 2016-02-14 19:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazi Kugisa
Soltys wrote:
[

Keep 'v' pressed down and then select stuff in overview / space. No need to touch 'c'.

It's significantly better than 'c', but still requires one key to be pressed all the time (not mentioning wicked zoom outs when choosing different bodies).


That's even worse than hitting c and then v. What other command in this game do you just hold and keep mashing a keyboard key? It is high level poor game design. You are trapping a hand in one position. I see no way that this is an acceptable option and is also very disabled unfriendly. There should NEVER be a case where you just have to keep mashing one key continuously.
I would be fine with a click object and then hit v to dscan as long as hitting v moves the camera. Holding the v key down all the time is a terrible idea from a UI standpoint.

I'm fine with working with the new camera. However, the current game design questions on the tracking function make no sense to me. What is the reason for this design choice? There is no apparent logic why it has to be done nor why the old camera has to be shut down in the next patch. You still haven't turned off the old map interface so what is the big rush? From a game design decisions, these stated directions make no sense. I understand wanting to get rid of the old camera code but if it is going to make gameplay worse, it makes more sense to not remove the old camera until a suitable solution from a UI and gameplay standpoint can be designed.
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#343 - 2016-02-14 19:46:12 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
As an aside:

to everyone pissing and moaning that ccp should play there game and then they would know what you all are talking about. Re: tracking camera, i have played eve for 12 years, scanned a lot of that and i have no ******* idea what you all are whining about with tracking. The new camera works just how i always used said camera. This is why they ask for videos and pictures, just because you and the guys you fly with use a tool a certain way, doesn't mean others do as well. This is why its best to show them what you are doing and how you are using things so they can understand what the **** you are talking about.

Stop being idiots and bitching at the devs and give them evidence of what is broken so they can try and fix it. Sheesh


If some of the devs would actually play the game that they write code for none of this sh1tstorm would be happening.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#344 - 2016-02-14 19:57:09 UTC
I've submitted a support ticket for this as well. But so it gets out to more devs I want to add it here:

Pan camera bound to right-click sucks. When I right-click on a station or for a right-click menu in space, it pans my camera off center. I want to bind that to something other than one of my primary EVE buttons.

I've bound Alt-1 (Tactical Camera) to a G-key as a return-to-center shortcut for the camera. That works well enough.

I've un-bound Track completely because until it becomes useful somehow I won't use it.

If right-click pan is a setting in shortcuts I can change, please enlighten me. I can't find it.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#345 - 2016-02-14 20:04:22 UTC
What is track even for? If it's meant to replace Look At then why doesn't the camera stay with the object?
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#346 - 2016-02-14 20:25:00 UTC
Quote:
That's even worse than hitting c and then v. What other command in this game do you just hold and keep mashing a keyboard key? It is high level poor game design. You are trapping a hand in one position. I see no way that this is an acceptable option and is also very disabled unfriendly. There should NEVER be a case where you just have to keep mashing one key continuously.


Not mashing down, just keep it pressed down (once) then click whatever targets you want dscanned with narrow cone. Sure I still prefer old trigger appraoch, but FWIW 'v' better than having to press 'c' separately for each entity.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Kazi Kugisa
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#347 - 2016-02-14 20:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazi Kugisa
Soltys wrote:
Quote:
That's even worse than hitting c and then v. What other command in this game do you just hold and keep mashing a keyboard key? It is high level poor game design. You are trapping a hand in one position. I see no way that this is an acceptable option and is also very disabled unfriendly. There should NEVER be a case where you just have to keep mashing one key continuously.


Not mashing down, just keep it pressed down (once) then click whatever targets you want dscanned with narrow cone. Sure I still prefer old trigger appraoch, but FWIW 'v' better than having to press 'c' separately for each entity.



If I'm in a system with 20 asteroid belts looking for ratters, I have to keep the V key mashed while I click through 20 belts. It's clunky and the dscan occasionally restarts before I can fully check when it catches POS trash. It adds a bit of time and that time is just extra time for the prey to escape if they are flying correctly.

Really, it comes down to is game design: why is this change even needed, what purpose does it serve and who does it hurt (intentionally or not). If CCP wants to nerf DSCAN, they should just explain why they think it needs to be nerfed. What I really think is the case is that they are just not interested in doing the coding to make the old functionality work in the new camera. That is not game design at all. That would just be deciding they don't want to spend the money to pay the coders to write the code. Two very different reasons.
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#348 - 2016-02-14 20:41:31 UTC
Alea wrote:
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:
It dawned on me early Saturday evening while I was binge watching some T.V. series.

This is very similar to the outcry that came from the Overview Icon change. The one where there was a strong (on forums at least) request to at least keep the 'Classic/Legacy' Icons for those that preferred them for several reasons. How did that turn out? And as for the backhanded offer of a customizable set of icons in return for the outright removal of the old ones, umm, where are they? I can't seem to find the right clicky, tab, or drop menu to fiddle with them.

>Jeven


For me those tiny icons killed my solo pvp career, I still can't see those tiny bastards very well at all, specially if there are allot of pilots on grid, had new glasses made just to help me play Eve but still my eyesight is too bad, CCP pretty much let us players with bad eyesight down.

I still pvp with my alliance but that's the extent of it, I'm a CAP pilot my choice so I can take more time to "find" who I'm supposed to be lobbing projectiles at, if I was in anything smaller I would not be able to pvp at all I don't think.


The overview icon change, and the custom choices still not being choices, put my plan to get more PvP experience (so I don't suck quite as bad as I do now! Ha!) on the shelf. I can't see the detail on smaller icons to know which is which at a glance. Bad eyesight, even with updated glasses, won't give the clean, clear crisp detail I need.

If the old camera is removed as is CCP's currrent plan in a month or so, I won't be able to play at all, even hiding out in asteroid belts or mission sites. The clean, crisp, clear, and precise detail and control from the camera won't be there. Instead it's camera on a bobber on a high wind advisory day at the lake. No. Due to the same eyesight problem that is nixing PvP experience gaining combined with the vertigo this new camera is triggering while it wanders where I did NOT tell it to go, are issues I can't just 'work around, tweak settings, and accept without other options' with force of will, determination, and sheer guts. Sorry, can't force my eyes to 'evolve' back to a perfect 20/20 diagnosis.

Old camera goes, so do I. Nothing too personal CCP. Just an entertainment dollar business decision.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.

Stefan Silviu
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2016-02-14 20:43:14 UTC
please keep the option to use the old camera or alow us to set the new camera to work like old one

thx
Ashterothi
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#350 - 2016-02-14 20:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashterothi
Alea wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
As an aside:

to everyone pissing and moaning that ccp should play there game and then they would know what you all are talking about. Re: tracking camera, i have played eve for 12 years, scanned a lot of that and i have no ******* idea what you all are whining about with tracking. The new camera works just how i always used said camera. This is why they ask for videos and pictures, just because you and the guys you fly with use a tool a certain way, doesn't mean others do as well. This is why its best to show them what you are doing and how you are using things so they can understand what the **** you are talking about.

Stop being idiots and bitching at the devs and give them evidence of what is broken so they can try and fix it. Sheesh


If some of the devs would actually play the game that they write code for none of this sh1tstorm would be happening.

Fun fact: it is almost no where true where the person writing the code is also writing the requirements.

The developers have a list of user stories:

"A user can use a modifier key to scan an object by clicking on it"

"A user can view a delayed D-Scan"

"A user can view a camera that tracks an object selected"

etc.

Within those stories are often pictures, descriptions, and acceptance tests that define what constitutes a "passed" story.

When you give feedback, some of that feedback is stored in the form of these tickets, those tickets are generally assigned points, and then pulled into the scope of work for a sprint. Sprints are generally 2 weeks. Now, a lot of the internals of CCP has changed in recent years, but that is the fundamentals of Agile development.

Whether or not a coder play's the thing they code for actually means very little. That would be like saying an interpreter at a concert has to also listen to that artist's music. You don't, you just take the requirements, fill them, then send them off to QA for review.

I only say this to offer clarity to what is going on behind the scenes of this big discussion.
Sonja Fury
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2016-02-14 21:07:21 UTC
I am one of these players who are getting motion sickness from the camera, The inertia values on the new camera I think is whats causing my motion sickness literally the game is not playable with the new camera for me until it's fixed. I also dislike the track options being in the right click menu, as someone who is a carebear I don't need to track my asteroids I am chewing so please remove it.
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#352 - 2016-02-14 21:08:48 UTC
Another day another try. I really want to get used to the new cam since I have to but the tracking thing is still not working.
I unchecked all the fancy yet useless features and put the speed to max but when I try to use the tracking it does weird things.

- Shortkey doesn´t work except I hit it twice

- When I hit the tracking shortkey twice it feels like the cam is getting "unlocked" from my ship, snapped back to somewhere left/right/above or below my ship and than focused on the object I like to track. Seriously, what is this good for? The same happens when I use "track" on the the selected item window. Now matter how you are trying to sell this as a good feature it is simply a ship killer.

- Using d-scan with the new camera and the new map is simply not efficient at all. Since there is no real tracking anymore it´s not possible to d-scan properly using the map. You have to adjust in space while keeping and eye on the map. So the whole new feature on the map with the d-scan bubble/cone became pretty much useless for d-scanning.

Last but not least it seems that some of the old shortkeys are mixed up with the new ones. It´s kinda trial and error to find the correct shortcut for the new features. Yes they are in the tooltip but these tracking cam toggle shortkeys are not working at all or I am simply a little to slow in the head to figure out how to use them.

Esnaelc Sin'led
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#353 - 2016-02-14 21:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
Ashterothi wrote:
Whether or not a coder play's the thing they code for actually means very little. That would be like saying an interpreter at a concert has to also listen to that artist's music. You don't, you just take the requirements, fill them, then send them off to QA for review.


That is such a cold point of view on which i'm not agree with at all.
To take your example, the difference between a good and a bad interpreter would be if he's listening to that artist's music or not.
So it goes for games, the difference between a good or a bad game would be if the code writer is playing this game or not.

It is also known as "passion".
Which transpires through the work created.
Then emulates, or not.
Dhugall
State War Academy
Caldari State
#354 - 2016-02-14 21:27:56 UTC
Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm one who has opted out of using the new camera at every stage. I did it for one reason...

I love the simple functionality of clicking on an object on the overview and looking in that direction.

Please provide this function with the new camera. I don't want to hold down a button AND click on the the object in the overview - to me it's a step backwards.

Kind regards,

Dhugall
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#355 - 2016-02-14 21:28:09 UTC
Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
Whether or not a coder play's the thing they code for actually means very little. That would be like saying an interpreter at a concert has to also listen to that artist's music. You don't, you just take the requirements, fill them, then send them off to QA for review.


That is such a cold point of view on which i'm not agree with at all.
To take your example, the difference between a good and a bad interpreter would be if he's listening to that artist's music or not.
So it goes for games, the difference between a good or a bad game would be if the code writer is playing this game or not.

It is also known as "passion".
Which transpires through the work created.
Then emulates, or not.



Actually it´s no problem when the people who are coding don´t know a single thing about the gameplay. The problem is, that people who told them what to code failed hard to tell the coders what to do. For me it´s just lines of code these lines make my customer happy. I know what they are for and I know what the goal is but I can´t tell you if no tracking cam or tracking cam is good or bad for the game itself - to keep thing simple.
I agree though, that if the coder actually plays the game he knows way better if his work is useful or not.
Bozar Taelen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#356 - 2016-02-14 21:36:12 UTC
Can you please give us an option to get rid of the camera inertia when rotating (that is not speed btw) so we can get fps style rotating responsiveness. That would be a huge improvement for those who want more precise control of their view.

Thank you
Kaldacin
Psyonic Legion
#357 - 2016-02-14 21:37:21 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
[quote=Fzhal] Just trying to help direct you to the setting that does what you want.


That would be a permanent OFF button.
DlCard
The Suicide Kings
Deepwater Hooligans
#358 - 2016-02-14 21:58:50 UTC
New camera is rough on my eyes. Give us the option to permanently keep the old camera

My Youtube Channel (PVP Vids) http://www.youtube.com/user/DCard77

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#359 - 2016-02-14 22:14:56 UTC
There's a toggle camera look at shortcut, but after assigning it a key, it doesn't work.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#360 - 2016-02-14 22:14:58 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
Alea wrote:


If some of the devs would actually play the game that they write code for none of this sh1tstorm would be happening.

Fun fact: it is almost no where true where the person writing the code is also writing the requirements.

*snipping out detailed process of feedback collection and recording*

I only say this to offer clarity to what is going on behind the scenes of this big discussion.


Doesn't matter what process they are using to collect player thoughts - it isn't working.

Some actual experience using the things they are messing with would go a long way in stopping the implementation of just plain bad ideas. For example - they changed notifications to add a red flag for every toon that does not have an active skill queue, even if one of the toons on the account is actually training. Anyone that **actually** plays the game more than once a week would know that was a very (insert derogatory word here that ISD won't get their panties wadded over) thing to implement. It's annoying and promotes that CCP is just going for money grabs right now.