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Dev blog: Unboxing the new Camera in EVE Online

First post First post First post
Author
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#281 - 2016-02-12 21:51:00 UTC
Cancelling all of my subscriptions if the old camera dies and the new camera is still ****.

Your new camera is garbage.

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#282 - 2016-02-12 21:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Tippia wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I mean, do I need to make a friggin video for you guys and narrate the whole thing. Showing you how the camera behaves and telling you every little thing step by step that is wrong with it? You CAN run an eve client yourself right and you HAVE played the game before right?

Trust me, the video is a very good idea because… well, your rhetoric questions may not be as rhetoric as you think.


UHG, fine. But I'm not gonna bother with overlay text and graphics etc so try to follow along CCP.

VIDEO

OK, at the opening of the video up till time 0:10
all seems fine. I'm actually ok with where the zoom speed and drift from moving the camera is at this stage. It doesn't feel as "connected" with my inputs as the old camera but I can get used to it. (EDIT: Just want to add, even though the input lag is slight and I can deal with it I can see how others may not be able to do so. When you start experiencing this lag it begins a chain of signals sent to the brain that things aren't behaving in quite the right way. You then begin to build and compound upon that effect when you start experiencing the things I point out later in this post.)

0:12 I use the current shortcut key "C" to point the tracking camera at an object selected on the overview.

0:16 by this time the camera has shifted the view of my ship completely out of my line of sight. (that's not a good thing just in case you were wondering)

0:20 I click on drag on the screen to manually point the camera just as I would if I was in a fight and trying to get a look around me. (don't want to go bumping into stations or asteroids while I'm kiting around in my little slicer now do I)
Notice what the camera does. It doesn't just smoothly rotate from where I'm currently looking, instead it snaps around 180 degree's and zooms WAAAYYY out on my ship. Not very helpfull for maintaining situational awareness now is it. In fact at first I have no idea what I'm even looking at or where my ship even went.

0:30 I use the tracking camera a few more times further demonstrating how my ship is just constantly awol.

0:40 once again I attemp to manually adjust the camera and boom, I'm out at max zoom facing some random direction again.

It should also be noted that during warp the camera shift is equally problematic. Moving my camera all over the place in ways I have no desire for it to do so.

The way the camera snaps around spinning 180 degrees and then drifting the ship in and out of view is a big part of the nausea problem. It's like reading a book while riding in a car and getting car sick. When your eye's, inner ear and intentional body movements send inputs to your brain that don't align it causes motion sickness.

With this new camera, the camera (a view point that you are accustomed to being your eye's in space) is moving around in all sorts of ways that do not correlate to what your hands are telling it to do on your keyboard and mouse, nor what you brain is telling you that it should be doing based on predictable response to input and environment. The physiological response to that situation is vertigo/motion sickness/nausea.

Does that spell things out clearly enough?

Edit; Sorry with all the nausea explanation I forgot to point out...
IT RUINS YOUR SENSE OF LOCATION AND SITUATIONAL AWARENESS!. Blink

Daemun of Khanid

Dominous Nolen
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#283 - 2016-02-12 22:02:25 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Now on to D-Scan.
Hope you all have an awesome spaceship-filled weekend,
CCP Turtlebutt // Team Psycho Sisters


You've completely missed the point. The old tracking camera was good for far more than dscan.

Scouting structures? Warping to the location and clicking the structure on overview automatically put it in your field of view.

In combat? Clicking something on your overview immediately shifted your view to it.

Need to sort of align to something but don't want to run into it because you're cloaked? Click it, and once your camera points at it double-click near it and you've got an angled approach that will take you close without risking a direct hit.

Your userbase WANTS TO KEEP WHAT WE HAVE. We don't like the new thing you made. We're sorry, I know it was a lot of work and you're proud of it and it's going to make for some neat visuals, but you're breaking functionality and we're not happy with it. The absolute best thing you can do here is say "We understand, we'll maintain the tracking camera as a mode of the new camera system and implement it on TQ for your testing before we remove your ability to turn off the new camera"



^^^ Perfectly stated.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#284 - 2016-02-12 22:03:33 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I mean, do I need to make a friggin video for you guys and narrate the whole thing. Showing you how the camera behaves and telling you every little thing step by step that is wrong with it? You CAN run an eve client yourself right and you HAVE played the game before right?

Trust me, the video is a very good idea because… well, your rhetoric questions may not be as rhetoric as you think.


UHG, fine. But I'm not gonna bother with overlay text and graphics etc so try to follow along CCP.

VIDEO

OK, at the opening of the video up till time 0:10
all seems fine. I'm actually ok with where the zoom speed and drift from moving the camera is at this stage. It doesn't feel as "connected" with my inputs as the old camera but I can get used to it.

0:12 I use the current shortcut key "C" to point the tracking camera at an object selected on the overview.

0:16 by this time the camera has shifted the view of my ship completely out of my line of sight. (that's not a good thing just in case you were wondering)

0:20 I click on drag on the screen to manually point the camera just as I would if I was in a fight and trying to get a look around me. (don't want to go bumping into stations or asteroids while I'm kiting around in my little slicer now do I)
Notice what the camera does. It doesn't just smoothly rotate from where I'm currently looking, instead it snaps around 180 degree's and zooms WAAAYYY out on my ship. Not very helpfull for maintaining situational awareness now is it. In fact at first I have no idea what I'm even looking at or where my ship even went.

0:30 I use the tracking camera a few more times further demonstrating how my ship is just constantly awol.

0:40 once again I attemp to manually adjust the camera and boom, I'm out at max zoom facing some random direction again.

It should also be noted that during warp the camera shift is equally problematic. Moving my camera all over the place in ways I have no desire for it to do so.

The way the camera snaps around spinning 180 degrees and then drifting the ship in and out of view is a big part of the nausea problem. It's like reading a book while riding in a car and getting car sick. When your eye's, inner ear and intentional body movements send inputs to your brain that don't align it causes motion sickness.

With this new camera, the camera (a view point that you are accustomed to being your eye's in space) is moving around in all sorts of ways that do not correlate to what your hands are telling it to do on your keyboard and mouse, nor what you brain is telling you that it should be doing based on predictable response to input and environment. The physiological response to that situation is vertigo/motion sickness/nausea.

Does that spell things out clearly enough?

Edit; Sorry with all the nausea explanation I forgot to point out...
IT RUINS YOUR SENSE OF LOCATION AND SITUATIONAL AWARENESS!. Blink


Maybe you should have bold text ... I'm not sure they get it. This is the first time I've actually felt disappointment towards CCP. Perhaps it was inevitable? I love Eve and the people I've met along the way.

Thanks for making your video - hopefully they get it.
Manic Velocity
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2016-02-12 22:05:33 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Sorry about that, I should have worded that differently. I meant that the list BEGINS to populate instantly. This is quicker than in the old camera because you don't have to wait for the camera to move first before it populates.

CCP Turtlepower


If I had to choose between waiting for the camera to swing around to get a complete list of data, or having that data begin to populate instantly and finish output after a second or two, I would absolutely take the first option. The d-scan data in its entirety needs to output instantly. Just as it currently does on TQ, and has always done for as long as I can remember.

If you thought people were pissed about the loss of a proper tracking camera, then just wait to see how they deal with delayed d-scan results.

"The most punchable face in New Eden."

Be excellent to each other.

Twitter | Twitch | YouTube

Dominous Nolen
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#286 - 2016-02-12 22:05:55 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I mean, do I need to make a friggin video for you guys and narrate the whole thing. Showing you how the camera behaves and telling you every little thing step by step that is wrong with it? You CAN run an eve client yourself right and you HAVE played the game before right?

Trust me, the video is a very good idea because… well, your rhetoric questions may not be as rhetoric as you think.


UHG, fine. But I'm not gonna bother with overlay text and graphics etc so try to follow along CCP.

VIDEO


IT RUINS YOUR SENSE OF LOCATION AND SITUATIONAL AWARENESS!. Blink


Thanks for posting this. The dodgy movement really needs to be highlighted as a problem.
Hopefully this kinda hits the problem home for them.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#287 - 2016-02-12 22:11:42 UTC
Almost forgot, that'll be $17.50.
At a rather unremarkable hourly rate of $20; recording the video, breaking it down and explaining it in a forum post was about 45 minutes of my day wasted.
I can take cashiers check or paypal if that's more convenient.

Really surprised you guys can't boot up a client and see this stuff for yourselves.Roll

Daemun of Khanid

Partsking
New Eden Marshals Service
#288 - 2016-02-12 22:15:34 UTC
Um, yeah. The new camera is ****.

Leave the option in to use both and everyone will be happy. Happy customers, happy subs.
Dominous Nolen
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#289 - 2016-02-12 22:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
The forums are filling up with so much hate for the new camera.

Meanwhile at CCP Head-quaters

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Mil Hegirin
Gingertar
#290 - 2016-02-12 22:47:29 UTC
Some reasons I don't use the new camera


  • D-Scan is harder to use - lost functionality
  • C must be held down to use the tracking camera. Every. Single. Time.
  • The Fishbowl effect - most pronounced when warping
  • Camera inertia - literally worthless
  • The tactical grid camera's pivot point is nigh impossible to manipulate, making it largely useless for subcaps
  • First person is cool, but has no practical value
  • FOV sliding. RIP my sense of distance. RIP my ability to make minor adjustments on the fly


Many of the changes are cool for movie makers, and clunky for everyone else. Clunky means poor design
Drake III
Blame The Bunny
#291 - 2016-02-12 22:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake III
So if I'm a new player and get nausea from the way the camera moves how long will I actually keep playing? On top of that if tell you about it you would tell me to adjust the camera settings. Having just started having no idea what I'm doing in a complex universe I have to also tweak a bunch of settings just to play.



Welcome to EVE

Also in response to you saying nothing is final and it is a work in process. The new camera is a default setting and new players would not even know there was a difference. I have been playing since 2006 and I did not know until I did some digging
2D34DLY4U
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#292 - 2016-02-12 22:57:50 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:

It's not just about pointing and dscanning (even if it were your new gimmick is still just another broken gimmick) it's also about being able to look around in the middle of a fleet fight, select targets, see where they are and what they're doing and make decisions based on the derived situational awareness.WITHOUT extra key presses. Particularly ones that don't work.


A million times this - CCP please reflect on what we are telling you, these are good messages, try it out for yourself to understand better - we are speaking the truth here and this is relevant and matters a lot to play the game.

Perhaps you can join RvB to learn since its high sec & accessible, they used to have engagements all the time where two fleets warp to each other and brawl, when you are in a middle of a blob of ships it is very important to have a camera that is centered on your ship (so you can see where you are going to) and use tracking (one click) followed by double clicking in space (to change where your ship is pointed to) in order to fly manually towards or in directions relative to others depending on what you want to do.

This is a good enough approximation to what happens when you are in fleet fights and again have to quickly understand where everything is while manually flying your ship. If you are heading in direction A and you see some target is to the left of you (because you click it and the camera, while remaining centered on your ship, is now pointing to the left automatically), you can then quickly adjust your direction relative to the target (by double clicking in space around your ship) while at the same time keeping tabs on where your ship is pointed to since it remains in the center of your screen. Note all of this is performed with the mouse and requires 3 clicks, a single click to point the auto track camera and a double click to move your ship, this while leaving your non mouse hand to work on speed, modules, etc.

You can also use tactical view to perform this from a more zoomed out perspective, but these are two good ways of flying that work, why take away one for no reason or replace it with menus and keybinds that even if they worked would be a worse solution?

RvB is high sec and you can easily make an alt to join and learn, inject some skills points and do a few frigate brawls to understand. We are not crazy although we are certainly desperate with this 1 month warning - this new camera may be awesome for videos and we understand you put a lot of work into it but for flying it simply doesn't work, the last thing we need is even more things to make EVE hard to play on top of an already complex UI/control model that you guys invented, we do our best to lean to use it effectively with the tools you give us that work, don't take them away or make them worse.
Dantesi Cadelanne
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
#293 - 2016-02-12 22:58:29 UTC
Drake III wrote:
So if I'm a new player and get nausea from the way the camera moves how long will I actually keep playing? On top of that if tell you about it you would tell me to adjust the camera settings. Having just started having no idea what I'm doing in a complex universe I have to also tweak a bunch of settings just to play.



Welcome to EVE



This^^^

Links to current poll related to the Dev blog: Unboxing the new Camera in EVE Online http://imgur.com/xUd2UJb (Initial Poll Data) https://twitter.com/EVE_Dantesi/status/697896708810735617 Poll Link

02/11/2016

Needmore Longcat
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#294 - 2016-02-12 23:08:29 UTC
Stop trying to fix things that aren't broken.

Chrome Veinss
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#295 - 2016-02-12 23:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Chrome Veinss
I gave the new camera another try. Its usable now that it can actually track things and not a horrible experience if all options are disabled and camera speed is set to maximum. Would be much better if "c" acted as an on/off toggle instead of having to press "c" every time i want to track something. Its still worse than the old camera. But at least its somewhat usable.

But I think the biggest problem right now is the camera not centering on your ship, this is what is making me once again go back to the old camera after 30 minutes with the new one. You only have to try tracking a thing in space, then another thing and surely enough you'lll lose sight of your ship behind some UI element and be lost in space. Its a really obvious problem and its pretty mindboogling that you'd release this as it is right now (let alone release it as it was before this first patch).

Edit: Really it might be usable for PVE but its still unusable for PVP, the extra button press to track a ship and having to use both keyboard and mouse instead of autotracking and only using mouse is just way too inefficient in a high pressure combat situation
Acedia Prime
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#296 - 2016-02-12 23:54:28 UTC
I'm so sad that auto-tracking is not available for the new camera mode!!! Everything else about it is so shiny! Unfortunately, not having the option of auto-tracking makes it unusable for anything else than cinematic purposes...
Aoi Litvyak
Doomheim
#297 - 2016-02-13 00:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aoi Litvyak
Maybe the solution is extremely simple.

Why not have the new cameras settings mimic or be as close to the current camera as possible by default.

Yeah CCP you want to show off all its new features, but thats the same kind of bullshittery an artist pulls to make it "cinematic" and look awesome on screenhots! With no regards to actual gameplay. The new camera doesnt need to have all its features on tweaked up to 11, it would be logical to make its default settings close to the original with the new features mostly disabled, and people can turn them on if they like it.

Maybe even have an extra setting thats Camera-Presets, with like Classic and New, and changing it changes all the camera settings.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2016-02-13 00:16:06 UTC
"we now have three different in-space cameras instead of the one before:"

And as long as one of them does the same thing as the one I have now, we won't have a problem. But if I'm being forced to use something I didn't ask for (ie Captain's Quarters all over again) I won't be sticking around.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Bemo
Narcosis.
#299 - 2016-02-13 00:39:19 UTC
I think its kinda funny how they keep telling us to "adjust this and change that setting" if we dont like how the camera is acting. So you want me to turn all those features off in the options menu instead of leaving the old WORKING camera alone. Right. Gotcha. Makes sense Roll
Heteleon Rotineque
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#300 - 2016-02-13 01:30:22 UTC
Could we pretty please have the max zoom out level be configurable or at least the same as what we had with the old camera? The max zoom out level of the new camera is about 300km radius but the old camera was around 900km radius (those were taken on the same screen/resolution). Yes I know that I can zoom out, detach the camera, then zoom out some more... but a) I don't want to have to detach the camera and b) after you detach the camera there's no option to keep my ship or any other object the center of the camera rotation. If we could just be able to zoom out a bit further in the normal tactical camera that'd be swell. You could even make it configurable in the display and graphic settings if you'd like.

If I'm missing some magic button to help me please let me know :)

Thanks