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[December] Navy EWar Frigates

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Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#301 - 2015-11-21 12:22:52 UTC
Does anybody test this ships on SISi? Can you write some words how are they doing?!
Abbot Jackson
Project Nogero
#302 - 2015-11-21 13:09:23 UTC
GRIFFIN NAVY ISSUE
the griffin should be way tankier and its ecm range should be way shorter. There should be an ECM boat in existence that can hold its own under fire.

It's like ECM is specifically and only for cloaky alt toons these days.

Griffin. Lol.
Blackbird. Lol but "the range guise".
Falcon. Lol "but cloak guise".
Rook. Can be pretty tanky, and for that reason either makes people run away or gets immediately primaried.

The Navy Griffin should be a formidably active tanked, slow brawler that, if it gets close, should permajam [racial] or 50%+jam [multispec] you, once it's in blaster range. That would be an awesome ship that would be hard to fly; easily counterable, easily kitable, easily blobable. But in the right situation, with the right amount of intel and preparation and scouting, and/or with the right fleetm8s, almost invincible. If it flies like this it could be a good, hard counter to the t2 frig logi.


p.s. it would be interesting to see a short range ecm battleship along the same premise.

MAULUS NAVY ISSUE
This is great. I'd say make the scram range even further. I bet this will come in handy when the new destroyers start turning everything on its head Twisted. It should also be pretty cool for when the frig logis come out.

VIGIL FLEET ISSUE
People who are saying this will push out the hyena are wrong. This thing is completely different. I think mostly lowsec peoples will use it. Not sure if I'll get one or not.

SULKY CAREBEAR RAGE

PRONS4LIFE

HTP REPRESENT
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#303 - 2015-11-23 04:20:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Reserved



Will we be getting a balance update on these before release? The navy crucified and griffin have been almost unanimously considered underpowered because of their 85% reduction.

For the crucified the 85% reduction blocks out the strength of both beams and scorch. Superior range in their size class. If you're worried about kite e-war, the base crucifier has an actual range bonus as well as speed. With less range restriction, the navy crucifier could scram kite with scorch and be safe from the enemies own turrets, or fly danger close e-war/dps with beams in small gang.

For the griffin, jams are in direct competition with tank, meaning the e-war/tackle they are forced into will make them easy kills for others, or a good rogue wrecking shot. With less range restriction, the e-war could be used sooner in an engagement, or used to screen a second ship from interfering with the tackle.

Please consider giving them OPTIONS in terms of how they're flown. Like the maulus and vigil. And not limit them to all in melt at zero only fits.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#304 - 2015-11-24 13:58:22 UTC
Hey everyone. Big thanks to all of you for the feedback so far.

After reading through what you folks have been saying, we agree that a few points merit changes pre-release and others will be watched closely after release.

A lot of you have been expressing concern that the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin are a little on the weak side. We've made a few adjustments to the plan, adding extra HP to both ships, increasing the strength of the cap use role bonus and expanding it to also reduce the CPU requirements of their chosen ewar. We've also reduced the base CPU a bit, but if you have at least one ewar module fit you'll be ahead thanks to the role bonus.
We know that this isn't going as far as some of you would have hoped, especially those of you who wanted more range on the ewar. We won't rule out increasing the range a bit in the future, but we want to see how these ships play out on TQ first, as they have a higher than average risk of feeling oppressive if they get too strong.

Many of you have also expressed concern that the Navy Maulus and Navy Vigil will be too strong, especially in kiting configurations. We also agree that these concerns merit pre-release changes, so we're making some adjustments to reduce the skirmishing power of these ships.

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.

The Navy Vigil is having its damage bonuses converted to apply to rockets only. You'll still be able to kite with the web with help from Javelin rockets and/or range modules and rigs, but the Vigil should also excel at chasing down and catching kiters with its speed and long range webs, then killing them within standard rocket range.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#305 - 2015-11-24 14:18:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Big thanks to all of you for the feedback so far.

After reading through what you folks have been saying, we agree that a few points merit changes pre-release and others will be watched closely after release.

A lot of you have been expressing concern that the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin are a little on the weak side. We've made a few adjustments to the plan, adding extra HP to both ships, increasing the strength of the cap use role bonus and expanding it to also reduce the CPU requirements of their chosen ewar. We've also reduced the base CPU a bit, but if you have at least one ewar module fit you'll be ahead thanks to the role bonus.
We know that this isn't going as far as some of you would have hoped, especially those of you who wanted more range on the ewar. We won't rule out increasing the range a bit in the future, but we want to see how these ships play out on TQ first, as they have a higher than average risk of feeling oppressive if they get too strong.

Many of you have also expressed concern that the Navy Maulus and Navy Vigil will be too strong, especially in kiting configurations. We also agree that these concerns merit pre-release changes, so we're making some adjustments to reduce the skirmishing power of these ships.

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.

The Navy Vigil is having its damage bonuses converted to apply to rockets only. You'll still be able to kite with the web with help from Javelin rockets and/or range modules and rigs, but the Vigil should also excel at chasing down and catching kiters with its speed and long range webs, then killing them within standard rocket range.


Even more excited about the +2 strength to the scramblers! Going to be good for catching stabbed explorers, farmers, etc.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#306 - 2015-11-24 14:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Big thanks to all of you for the feedback so far.

After reading through what you folks have been saying, we agree that a few points merit changes pre-release and others will be watched closely after release.

A lot of you have been expressing concern that the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin are a little on the weak side. We've made a few adjustments to the plan, adding extra HP to both ships, increasing the strength of the cap use role bonus and expanding it to also reduce the CPU requirements of their chosen ewar. We've also reduced the base CPU a bit, but if you have at least one ewar module fit you'll be ahead thanks to the role bonus.
We know that this isn't going as far as some of you would have hoped, especially those of you who wanted more range on the ewar. We won't rule out increasing the range a bit in the future, but we want to see how these ships play out on TQ first, as they have a higher than average risk of feeling oppressive if they get too strong.

Many of you have also expressed concern that the Navy Maulus and Navy Vigil will be too strong, especially in kiting configurations. We also agree that these concerns merit pre-release changes, so we're making some adjustments to reduce the skirmishing power of these ships.

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.

The Navy Vigil is having its damage bonuses converted to apply to rockets only. You'll still be able to kite with the web with help from Javelin rockets and/or range modules and rigs, but the Vigil should also excel at chasing down and catching kiters with its speed and long range webs, then killing them within standard rocket range.

If the damage bonus only applies to rockets on the vigil, do we really need the application bonus with long webs? Could we do split weapon bonus to make projectiles feasible? Or give it a range bonus for rockets so we can actually use the long webs+javelin more effectively?

I just dont see the need for an application bonus with rockets when even rages will apply full dps with 1 web. Unless you are linked i suppose. Not to mention being forced into rockets only doesnt help make creative fits.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#307 - 2015-11-24 14:59:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Big thanks to all of you for the feedback so far.

After reading through what you folks have been saying, we agree that a few points merit changes pre-release and others will be watched closely after release.

A lot of you have been expressing concern that the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin are a little on the weak side. We've made a few adjustments to the plan, adding extra HP to both ships, increasing the strength of the cap use role bonus and expanding it to also reduce the CPU requirements of their chosen ewar. We've also reduced the base CPU a bit, but if you have at least one ewar module fit you'll be ahead thanks to the role bonus.
We know that this isn't going as far as some of you would have hoped, especially those of you who wanted more range on the ewar. We won't rule out increasing the range a bit in the future, but we want to see how these ships play out on TQ first, as they have a higher than average risk of feeling oppressive if they get too strong.

Many of you have also expressed concern that the Navy Maulus and Navy Vigil will be too strong, especially in kiting configurations. We also agree that these concerns merit pre-release changes, so we're making some adjustments to reduce the skirmishing power of these ships.

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.

The Navy Vigil is having its damage bonuses converted to apply to rockets only. You'll still be able to kite with the web with help from Javelin rockets and/or range modules and rigs, but the Vigil should also excel at chasing down and catching kiters with its speed and long range webs, then killing them within standard rocket range.


thats what you got from this thread, not why do most of these out dps most of other frigs? , combined with strong e-war

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#308 - 2015-11-24 15:12:52 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

If the damage bonus only applies to rockets on the vigil, do we really need the application bonus with long webs? Could we do split weapon bonus to make projectiles feasible? Or give it a range bonus for rockets so we can actually use the long webs+javelin more effectively?

I just dont see the need for an application bonus with rockets when even rages will apply full dps with 1 web. Unless you are linked i suppose. Not to mention being forced into rockets only doesnt help make creative fits.

Don't think application bonus from webs. Think range control bonus. Webs are far more than just getting missiles to apply damage.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#309 - 2015-11-24 15:19:31 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

If the damage bonus only applies to rockets on the vigil, do we really need the application bonus with long webs? Could we do split weapon bonus to make projectiles feasible? Or give it a range bonus for rockets so we can actually use the long webs+javelin more effectively?

I just dont see the need for an application bonus with rockets when even rages will apply full dps with 1 web. Unless you are linked i suppose. Not to mention being forced into rockets only doesnt help make creative fits.

Don't think application bonus from webs. Think range control bonus. Webs are far more than just getting missiles to apply damage.


Im aware of range control, that doesnt change the fact you will still hit for full damage with just 1 web with rockets. What is the point of the application bonus when you will always have at least 1 web fitted? Rage missiles will apply with 1 web as well. Its a wasted bonus that only applies to rockets as well. If it applied to light missiles too, that would be different.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#310 - 2015-11-24 15:21:10 UTC
And now we could see this spring 6/7 Navy Maulus scrambling a Titan :)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#311 - 2015-11-24 15:27:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Big thanks to all of you for the feedback so far.

After reading through what you folks have been saying, we agree that a few points merit changes pre-release and others will be watched closely after release.

A lot of you have been expressing concern that the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin are a little on the weak side. We've made a few adjustments to the plan, adding extra HP to both ships, increasing the strength of the cap use role bonus and expanding it to also reduce the CPU requirements of their chosen ewar. We've also reduced the base CPU a bit, but if you have at least one ewar module fit you'll be ahead thanks to the role bonus.
We know that this isn't going as far as some of you would have hoped, especially those of you who wanted more range on the ewar. We won't rule out increasing the range a bit in the future, but we want to see how these ships play out on TQ first, as they have a higher than average risk of feeling oppressive if they get too strong.

Many of you have also expressed concern that the Navy Maulus and Navy Vigil will be too strong, especially in kiting configurations. We also agree that these concerns merit pre-release changes, so we're making some adjustments to reduce the skirmishing power of these ships.

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.

The Navy Vigil is having its damage bonuses converted to apply to rockets only. You'll still be able to kite with the web with help from Javelin rockets and/or range modules and rigs, but the Vigil should also excel at chasing down and catching kiters with its speed and long range webs, then killing them within standard rocket range.


pretty good. I'm still concerned about the navy griffin, because it uses ecm and ecm is broken. and I still think you need some kind of proper solution to fix drone kiting without just nerfing all drone ships into nothing, my thing for this would be lower drone control ranges for ship classes, and also making it so you can't just run off to 150km and still have your 60km drones attack stuff just fine.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#312 - 2015-11-24 15:34:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Big thanks to all of you for the feedback so far.

After reading through what you folks have been saying, we agree that a few points merit changes pre-release and others will be watched closely after release.

A lot of you have been expressing concern that the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin are a little on the weak side. We've made a few adjustments to the plan, adding extra HP to both ships, increasing the strength of the cap use role bonus and expanding it to also reduce the CPU requirements of their chosen ewar. We've also reduced the base CPU a bit, but if you have at least one ewar module fit you'll be ahead thanks to the role bonus.
We know that this isn't going as far as some of you would have hoped, especially those of you who wanted more range on the ewar. We won't rule out increasing the range a bit in the future, but we want to see how these ships play out on TQ first, as they have a higher than average risk of feeling oppressive if they get too strong.

Many of you have also expressed concern that the Navy Maulus and Navy Vigil will be too strong, especially in kiting configurations. We also agree that these concerns merit pre-release changes, so we're making some adjustments to reduce the skirmishing power of these ships.

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.

The Navy Vigil is having its damage bonuses converted to apply to rockets only. You'll still be able to kite with the web with help from Javelin rockets and/or range modules and rigs, but the Vigil should also excel at chasing down and catching kiters with its speed and long range webs, then killing them within standard rocket range.


sorry for the tone of my posts here.

Most pvp fits will have webs and scrams anyway, having range bonuses on their tackle also gives them a huge advantage over just about every ship in the game. If someone can mwd and kite me at 20km with double webs i might aswell be perma jammed or tracking disrupted to **** anyway because im not catching him, unlike most kiters there's almost no way to slingshot him into my range either because I'm double webbed well outside overheated scram range or in the case of the Navy Maulus I'm scrammed outside overheated web range.

these are pirate level bonuses and I don't think they belong on such a cheap class of pvp ships. If you must have them then you have to give the other two full use of their ewar to make them more balanced with each other and just make them all cost 30-40mil isk because that's where the maulus and vigil are at even now, or you need to find some other bonus for the vigil and maulus because they have these huge engagement profiles and not many hard counters apart from a few pirate ships.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#313 - 2015-11-24 15:48:01 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

thats what you got from this thread, not why do most of these out dps most of other frigs? , combined with strong e-war


dps is not the issue here, the issue is they have such strong range control dps doesn't even matter.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#314 - 2015-11-25 02:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Feodor Romanov
If I understand right the last Fozzie post, no changes will be made any more before the patch release.
Welp... Glory to the new King of all gate camps and FW plexes Navy Maulus, The Thunderstorm of all stabbed plexers and Horror of all not very fast close range insects. All other navy frigates take their rightful places in Royal retinue: Count Vigil as a squire of His Majesty, Crucifier and Griffin as clowns.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#315 - 2015-11-25 08:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Agrivar
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.


If it was, at all possible, to have your love child...I would right now.

Oh yeah, the Navy Maulus is going to be fun to fly now. Shocked
Mork Borlog
Doomheim
#316 - 2015-11-25 09:27:06 UTC
Thank long time was that for "solo PvP" more is done!
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#317 - 2015-11-25 19:20:05 UTC
Abbot Jackson wrote:
GRIFFIN NAVY ISSUE
the griffin should be way tankier and its ecm range should be way shorter. There should be an ECM boat in existence that can hold its own under fire.

It's like ECM is specifically and only for cloaky alt toons these days.

Griffin. Lol.
Blackbird. Lol but "the range guise".
Falcon. Lol "but cloak guise".
Rook. Can be pretty tanky, and for that reason either makes people run away or gets immediately primaried.

The Navy Griffin should be a formidably active tanked, slow brawler that, if it gets close, should permajam [racial] or 50%+jam [multispec] you, once it's in blaster range. That would be an awesome ship that would be hard to fly; easily counterable, easily kitable, easily blobable. But in the right situation, with the right amount of intel and preparation and scouting, and/or with the right fleetm8s, almost invincible. If it flies like this it could be a good, hard counter to the t2 frig logi.


p.s. it would be interesting to see a short range ecm battleship along the same premise.

The underlying problem is most ECM ships suffer form the ability to field no tank, or you crnk The SDAII's as much as possible.
There are feasible alternatives(at all lvl V), but no ECM boat will be a solo ship. adding armor tank reduces jamming about ~30%, and it gets pretty horrendous on the scorpion trying to tank it.. which makes them all prety much snipe or bust.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#318 - 2015-11-26 03:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Torei Dutalis
Still wondering why the Navy Griffin gets a bump from 15% -> 20% ECM strength bonus over the t1 variant, but the Navy Crucifier (with an overall weaker ewar system) doesn't get a strength bonus. In fact, I'm still wondering why I would fly a Navy Crucifier over a t1 Crucifier. More armor and like 45~ more dps at the cost of speed, a drone and range seems like a pretty mediocre trade. Having to think about if this ship is actually better than a t1 ship seems to be a clear indicator that the ship needs help.
Harreeb Alls
God of Terrorr
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#319 - 2015-11-26 07:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Harreeb Alls
Torei Dutalis wrote:
Still wondering why the Navy Griffin gets a bump from 15% -> 20% ECM strength bonus over the t1 variant, but the Navy Crucifier (with an overall weaker ewar system) doesn't get a strength bonus. In fact, I'm still wondering why I would fly a Navy Crucifier over a t1 Crucifier. More armor and like 45~ more dps at the cost of speed, a drone and range seems like a pretty mediocre trade. Having to think about if this ship is actually better than a t1 ship seems to be a clear indicator that the ship needs help.


I agree, I was thinking the same thing about the griffin. The navy is horribly weaker and less useful than the t1. Here is me flying griffin, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJT71oMFjr8&t=3m0s why would i ever downgrade to the navy griffin.

The navy griffin will be dead before it ever lands a jam.
Get rid of dmg bonus, give it resist bonus, speed, mwd sig bonus and let it at least jam out to 24km.
And basically do the same for the crucifier.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#320 - 2015-11-26 08:56:24 UTC
To clarify my post, I am not opposed to the close up design that is being used here. I am more just looking for the ship to be a capable addition to the complement of existing ships and that it be worthy of being a "navy" ship.

To be more specific, here is what I would tweak on the navy crucifier:
+5% / Level to tracking disruptor strength (Total 12.5% / Level)
+10 m/s base speed
+5 bandwidth
+10 drone bay