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[December] Navy EWar Frigates

First post
Author
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#361 - 2015-12-09 22:07:46 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


And you didn't kill off his drones because....?


This only covers part of it. the "change in dps" requires them drones that you just sent out 50k to fly back to you, swap out and fly back out. I'll consider this about equive to missile launcher reload times.

Judging by the ship it was probably medium drones, which sure don't move as fast as lights (unless theres a drone navigation computer fitted, that I doubt).

Also drone control is easy. kill them all till they are all gone. He has no more dps than. It happens, but sometimes in the heat of battle when panic when we should be shooting them drones. I've done it.

But if your a brawler (im assuming blaster fit) than with that superior dps, you should have been able to hold him and let him empty his drone bay.

Even Turret disruption doesn't mess up dps uniformity to blapping drones. than he probably hasn't filled up on only heavies and has to field smaller drones. doing less dps.
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#362 - 2015-12-11 02:36:29 UTC
I didn't kill off his drones because I didn't want him to get away.

If you don't use a web, trying to kill Valkerie II or Warrior II drones with medium blasters is not going to be easy.

If you do use a web, you just let the enemy escape.

I actually set my flight of light drones on his large drone, but they took forever to do damage.

In any case, drone boats like the Vexor have huge space for extra drones. You can spend minutes and minutes killing them before the DPS starts to go down.

Not only that, all the time you spend shooting his drones is time you are not breaking his tank.

Not only that, he was fit with 4 guns as well as all his drones and their bonuses. Which is not bad for a tech 1 hull, but ....... behold the mighty vexor.

So even if I had killed his drones, and even if he didn't fly away as I tried to do that, he would have been starting the fight at max health while I was staring in half hull. And he would have had four guns to finish the job.

The only time I ever had "shoot the drones" work for me was fighting with an Enyo dual proper against a Proteus. I shot out his flight of lights and got under his guns with the AB.

So then he freaked and called his buddies with a command ship and tech 2 ECM, and they popped me.

I'm not complaining. Eve is eve, and some ships have to be the best.

Drone boats are it!
KeithStone Yotosala
Mine 'N' Refine
Goonswarm Federation
#363 - 2015-12-13 02:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: KeithStone Yotosala
Let's give one team in FW 5km ranges on all their new ships, and the other side we will give range bonuses and drone damage/hp bonuses too!

And they laughed and laughed and laughed...
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#364 - 2015-12-13 20:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
KeithStone Yotosala wrote:
Let's give one team in FW 5km ranges on all their new ships, and the other side we will give range bonuses and drone damage/hp bonuses too!

And they laughed and laughed and laughed...

And the other side will, in addition to range and drone bonuses, have bonuses to the range of range control modules to guarantee the two 5km range ships will never get in range.

Edit: it's rather more that you can fit up a javelin rocket kiting Vigil and never let anything in range or avoid anything with range to challenge you, and that the Maulus is a souped up pre-nerf Tristan.
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2015-12-14 00:00:36 UTC
KeithStone Yotosala wrote:
Let's give one team in FW 5km ranges on all their new ships, and the other side we will give range bonuses and drone damage/hp bonuses too!

And they laughed and laughed and laughed...


What about the irony?

Amarr are supposed to be a spiritual race. Caldari are supposed to be corporate wizards.

And yet, just look at their new navy frigates. Crippled drone fodder.

Clear evidence that all the gods hold them in contempt.

There was much cheering and hilarity on the galmil channel when the first killmails started coming in.

In the interests of fairness, please let me say to Caldari:

Sucked in, this is what you get for being creepy weirdos who fly in stabbed blobs.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#366 - 2015-12-17 23:34:08 UTC
Maulus and Vigil are good ships, but I have yet to see a compelling argument that says they are OP.

Crucifier and Griffin are mediocre.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#367 - 2015-12-18 15:04:23 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Maulus and Vigil are good ships, but I have yet to see a compelling argument that says they are OP.

Crucifier and Griffin are mediocre.


Now that it's out and i've had a look at some fits I can see the Navy Vigil is not as bad as I expected, removing the dmg bonus from light missiles forces big compromises. The Navy Maulus is far too strong.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#368 - 2015-12-18 16:55:35 UTC
Actually, the Vigil can easily be fit to kite with Javelin rockets so it's really not any worse off than if it had a bonus to light missiles.

It's secretly designed to be a 10mn / Javelin kiter with defensive web.

I don't see what makes the Maulus so powerful. It's slow and it's drones can easily be killed off. Don't get me wrong it's a really good ship, but I think it's about as powerful as a navy ewar frigate should be.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#369 - 2015-12-26 01:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Torei Dutalis wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The Navy Maulus and the Fleet Vigil are too hard to counter because of the range bonus to tackle, they'll push everything else out of the solo meta.


You do realize that the vigil only projects 200~ dps to 8.4km right? The web bonus is effectively wasted when using this ship solo. The dps on the navy maulus is really about the same as you would get from a tristan, its just tankier. You also have to keep in mind that this ship only has a base speed of 315 m/s which is really slow. Ships like the worm (post nerf) are still way way way more threatening than these ships will ever be. Rail comets (and all comets really) will still be a complete menace to novice plexes after these ships come out. There's no doubt that ships with range bonuses to tackle mods are strong ships, but you have to look at the whole ship to really come to a conclusion on balance.


vigil: just fit range rigs and you hit out to 15.5km with rage or 23km with javelins.

maulus: I've flown tristans a lot which are about the same speed, and I actually used a mwd scram fit anyway but I've caught far faster ships just with manual piloting, and if i don't get them in the first pass 9 times out of 10 I can bug out unless they're linked.

The Rail comet will probably push them off, same with a cormorant or arty thrasher or any other long range ship with better dps/ehp ratio but they won't kill them unless the maulus/vigil pilot makes a big mistake. Can someone please name a few solo ships I can use to actually go hunt these - ***and kill them***

Arazu Pilgrim
Harreeb Alls
God of Terrorr
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#370 - 2015-12-27 20:35:41 UTC
I have yet to see a single one flown in combat and i live in one of the most active pvp systems in eve. I would love to see some stats on the popularity if thses ships.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#371 - 2015-12-29 16:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Harreeb Alls wrote:
I have yet to see a single one flown in combat and i live in one of the most active pvp systems in eve. I would love to see some stats on the popularity if thses ships.

I've seem then in high low and null sec, they're not he most popular ships ever but they're just navy frigates. the Vigil is a cheap long web and maulus is a decent long scram

crucifier and griffin are niche and mediocre, but definitely still fun to play with, and they're different so that's a good thing
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#372 - 2015-12-30 04:02:13 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Harreeb Alls wrote:
I have yet to see a single one flown in combat and i live in one of the most active pvp systems in eve. I would love to see some stats on the popularity if thses ships.

I've seem then in high low and null sec, they're not he most popular ships ever but they're just navy frigates. the Vigil is a cheap long web and maulus is a decent long scram

crucifier and griffin are niche and mediocre, but definitely still fun to play with, and they're different so that's a good thing


Being different is good, sure.

But the problem is the crucifier is a squishy, slow, grid gimped, range gimped slicer with more mids. While those 4 mids mean a lot, the lack of grid and the 3 lows holds it back. It can't even fit a 400mm compact plate, 1mn compact ab, and gatling pulse without a grid rig.

If it were an ewar ship that would be understandable. As things are you'd be better off using a navy maulus in that role. Just toss a mwd, scram, TD on it with an armor buffer and you're fine.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#373 - 2015-12-31 08:42:27 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Actually, the Vigil can easily be fit to kite with Javelin rockets so it's really not any worse off than if it had a bonus to light missiles.

It's secretly designed to be a 10mn / Javelin kiter with defensive web.

I don't see what makes the Maulus so powerful. It's slow and it's drones can easily be killed off. Don't get me wrong it's a really good ship, but I think it's about as powerful as a navy ewar frigate should be.


The Vigil with light missiles didn't have to fit any kind of missile range rigs so it could fit a really strong shield tank, with being super fast high dps and defensive 20km web it would be easy mode kiting. As it stands it's not as tanky so a lot of ships even some t1 frigs can kill it without getting into super niche fits, and it doesn't have as much range.


Navy Maulus:

[Maulus Navy Issue, active tank fit]

Small Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Armor Repairer II

Warp Scrambler II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 200
1MN Afterburner II

75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Iron Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5
Acolyte II x5


195 EHP/s active tank (with heat and standard exile)
about 130 dps.


or a shield kite MWD fit:

[Maulus Navy Issue, shield fit]

Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

5MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Shield Extender II

125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Lead Charge S
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Lead Charge S

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

7k ehp
150dps
3069m/s or 4388m/s with heat.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#374 - 2016-01-01 23:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Templar Dane wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Harreeb Alls wrote:
I have yet to see a single one flown in combat and i live in one of the most active pvp systems in eve. I would love to see some stats on the popularity if thses ships.

I've seem then in high low and null sec, they're not he most popular ships ever but they're just navy frigates. the Vigil is a cheap long web and maulus is a decent long scram

crucifier and griffin are niche and mediocre, but definitely still fun to play with, and they're different so that's a good thing


Being different is good, sure.

But the problem is the crucifier is a squishy, slow, grid gimped, range gimped slicer with more mids. While those 4 mids mean a lot, the lack of grid and the 3 lows holds it back. It can't even fit a 400mm compact plate, 1mn compact ab, and gatling pulse without a grid rig.

If it were an ewar ship that would be understandable. As things are you'd be better off using a navy maulus in that role. Just toss a mwd, scram, TD on it with an armor buffer and you're fine.

Unfortunately you're right.

I know this might sound weird but I think a good idea for the crucifier navy issue would have been as some type of rocket / ewar hybrid, like a vengeance mixed with a sentinel or whatever

I mean, since they took away it's droneboatedness, I think that would have been much more interesting
Klaatu Krypto
Never mind the bollocks here's the corp
#375 - 2016-01-03 18:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Klaatu Krypto
CCP Fozzie wrote:

These ships are designed to use their racial ewar bonuses (primary ewar for Amarr and Caldari, secondary for Gallente and Minmatar) in unusual ways, skewed towards solo and microgang combat. Overall we don't expect these ships to eclipse Electronic Attack Frigates for fleet support roles, but the combination of ewar with significant frigate damage puts them into their own category.


I fought a Griff NI and a Vigil FI today. Those two - at least - are two powerful for T1 frig that can enter novice plexes.

I don't understand the need of those new ships apart bringing the electronic frig useless and ruining a bit more the fights.
There were already T1 designed ewar frigs, which were useful and efficient when well-used in small gang.

T2 frigs are disappearing.
No more EAF I guess, no more AF ....
Such a long time I havent seen and fought an AF as well ....

sigh
Milostiev
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#376 - 2016-01-12 16:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Milostiev
Pestilen Ratte wrote:


My last fight was a good one. I was flying an Exeq Navy Issue (cheap blaster boat from hell) with a gank and moderate hull tank fit, and the other guy was flying a stock vexor.

We both had combat SP of around the same levels. It was a pure 1v1 fight, no OGB to my knowledge. We chatted afterwards and the guy has a solid combat pilot mentality.

So he won, and he won handsomely. By the time my hull popped, he still had about 25% armour left.

Why did he win?

The navy issue exeq has 750 dps cold, on paper. It has a fine hull tank. On paper, if it closes range and grabs its enemy, it should melt it real fast. If it gets kited, it has big problems.

Here is the thing: I grabbed him. I closed range right away. I spent the WHOLE FIGHT in range of my guns, with web and scram on him, and I was fitted with dual damage mods and a tracking mod. I went lightish on the hull tank to keep the DPS at face raping levels.

So how did he win?

To truly gank you need to overwhelm the active tank/ehp of the target, 750dps is not 'overwhelm' gank dps unless you fight something significantly lower in tank.
I'm gonna guess the Vexor had dual repp tank or plate + repp with one repp being an ancillary. If that is the case (and especially for dual repp), if he had solid tank in lows, the only way to beat him is to wait out the 8 cycles of AAR he has, and put it all on him.
Furthermore, if you did put drones on his drones, you sacrificed ~100dps. So you weren't fully gank.
I'm not really sure if that 100dps would have helped you in that particular situation, but without it, your dps is a far more manageable (and tankable) 650.


Quote:
The answer is pretty simple.

A drone boat does not need to spend power grid on weapons systems, and so it can use the power grid for tank (both speed tank and EHP). Furthermore, drones are faster than most ships and they apply damage over a 50km envelope with NO PILOT INPUT.

I really have to stress that last point. Drones can apply THE SAME damage over a 50Km range with no pilot input. They get to do this and save huge power grid in the process.

In the scenario you are describing, drones have a slight disadvantage because a 2/2/1 configuration on the Vexor will arrive on the target and apply dps staggered.
As most ppl use Ogre II's with their awesome speed of 1400-1500 m/s, it takes a while to cover 50k.
2/2/1 is not a good configuration for sending drones 50k away.
5 meds, 5 lights, 5 sentries, sure.

Quote:
Did I mention that you can change your damage type and size instantly, with NO cost to power grid or CPU?

Now look at turret based ships, like the navy issue exeq or the ammar line.

On the Vexor, the drones you exit the station with, are the drones you will be using untill (most likely) you die.
You do not have enough drone bay to alternate the dps.
The Arbitrator can do that, the Ishtar can do that, the Astero can do that .... Vexor trades that in for slightly more dps.
Milostiev
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#377 - 2016-01-12 16:45:13 UTC
Quote:
In order to apply damage with turrets, you need to:

1. Use tech 2 ammo with reduced DPS. This is mandatory in order to get a damage application envelope that will keep hitting something that is moderately kitey and not doubled webbed and scrammed.

2. Fit for speed and agility, so that you can pilot so that your DPS actually hits the enemy. Don't worry that this precludes having large armour tanks. You didn't have the powergrid anyway, because you needed that to use your weapon system.

I can't speak for above cruisers (i have come back from a 3yr break and i haven't flown bc and above in a while), but in cruisers and below this is not true.
Dual repp Rupture, Vexor, Thorax, do in fact work.
You are not going to do gank dps, but 500-600 is doable, and 500-600 tankable dps is also doable (for about 1minute).

You do however have to trick the enemy to come in scram/webb range so you have to play around stargates a lot and annoying the enemy is crucial.

Quote:
3. Hope that you don't get capped out. Yeah, those blasters and lasers need cap. Unlike drones. So if your enemy has spare top slots and powergrid, maybe because he doesn't mneed them for his weapons system, he might want to neut you and turn off all your weapons. Now, you might fly out of cap range or fit mid slot cap war resist modules, but this will drop your potential DPS and reduce your ability to dictate range.

Projectiles and missiles share the same bonus.

Quote:
4. Concentrate on manual piloting. If you want to apply DPS with turrets, you are going to have to learn how to fly. If you just orbit or keep range, your applied DPS is going to drop by half, at best. So, while you arte concentrating on flying to apply DPS, the happy drone boat pilot can concentrate on mitigating DPS. By kiting, by flying to increase transversal, by using all his spare slots and powergrid to tank it up. All he has to do is dodge your theoretical dps until his drones wear you down. And they will, because you can't fly to kite them, or your guns start missing. You can use your web to kill his drones, but he has plenty more and will escape you because you took your web off him.

Some ships do in fact have this bonus, of not worrying about anything when it comes to drones, but the Vexor ain't one of them.
If the target gets away, you have to recall drones, and either get out, or launch again when you have tackle.

The point you bright however is very valid with the Worm. Not only are it's drones hard to kill, but they are also quite fast, and the ship has backups in the same class.

Quote:
In other words, turrets get good applied DPS..... never. You work like a cattle dog just to get moderate applied DPS. And you damage type is restricted, so you face huge resists.

Drones, by contrast, get fantastic DPS if the other pilot is preoccupied with, say trying to apply damage of this own.

One way to fix this imbalance would be to nerf drone boats. The other way would be to massively boost the theorectical DPS, and thus the applied DPS, on brawling turret boats.

I don't mind flying a blaster boat weapon platform that will die if it gets kited and needs some pilot skills to grab and hold the enemy.

But it is absurd to fly an advanced navy blaster platform, to engage and grab the enemy, to dictate range, to apply damage the whole fight, and to then lose anyway. By a lot. To an inferior tech one hull!!

If a specialized brawler gets a hold of you, it really should be your ass. Otherwise it isn't a brawler. It is just drone fodder.

The understanding in the player base, across all race profiles, must be, if your drone boat gets grabbed by a specialist short range turret platform, you will most probably die in a hail of fire.

You lost to a superior fit and to what i can only guess are superior tactics.

One of the best fights i had since returning to eve was a rocket kessy vs tristan fight.
I was in rocket kessy, mwd, scram, webb and mse fit, the other dude had hull tanked tristan with more ehp and just slightly less dps.
I won because i pulled away to 40-50, killed some drones, made him recover them, and then dived in.
Instead of having them out from the start, shaving away my ehp before i got in range, which probably made sure i started the fight with 1000 ehp more than i would normally have.
I won in half hull, and the kessy does not have a lot of hull (launchers burned 90% and had rage ammo loaded).
Sometimes little things like that matter.
ARES-DESIDERATUS
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2016-03-14 05:39:46 UTC
Are you guys just going to leave these frigates in the sad state they are in?

Don't like my post.