These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[December] Navy EWar Frigates

First post
Author
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#321 - 2015-11-26 08:56:52 UTC
Oh man, I was up all night on SiSi and haven't even checked if they are on yet -.-

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#322 - 2015-11-26 22:30:09 UTC
Torei Dutalis wrote:
To clarify my post, I am not opposed to the close up design that is being used here. I am more just looking for the ship to be a capable addition to the complement of existing ships and that it be worthy of being a "navy" ship.

To be more specific, here is what I would tweak on the navy crucifier:
+5% / Level to tracking disruptor strength (Total 12.5% / Level)
+10 m/s base speed
+5 bandwidth
+10 drone bay


nowhere near enough. the gap between the navy crucifier/griffin and the maulus/vigil is not going to be fixed with tweaks. 2 of them are almost impossible to counter with a standard pvp fit, and two of them will be vulnerable to any t1 kiter, most t2 frigs, anything with neuts, and even a few t1 brawers especially scram kites in case of the navy griffin.

if i land in system scan a novice plex and see a navy maulus or navy vigil inside, how many ships can i take in there and expect to kill them 1v1? not very many i can think of. they'll beat any t1 frigate, they'll beat most other navy frigates, they'll even beat most pirate frigs. Only a dribbling moron would lose one of these in a novice plex, they're almost ****** proof. Just watch d-scan, you see a kite ship on the gate switch to rage and move to the beacon - nothing's escaping your overheated webs, you see a brawler on the gate move away from the beacon kite them... win 100% of all solo fights and farm dank lp.

even in small plexes with assault frigs, inties, and destroyers. they are perfect for running plexes in faction war, not so with the other two. for a start you have to leave the beacon every minute to go and kill a rat, all the time you're away from the beacon killing the rats you're vulnerable to someone coming in, and when you're brawl fit you spend most of your time going back and forward between the rats and the beacon. vigil and maulus don't really care because they have drones and long range weapons so they can set themselves up at their optimal. They need to be radically overhauled, with the Maulus and Vigil needing massive nerfs and the other two needing buffs:

1. Everyone fit's webs/scram regardless of whether you're bonused or not, griffin and crucifier need to use an extra slot to fit their ewar. The Vigil and Maulus should lose a low slot.

2. The vigil and maulus are way too hard to counter because they have such strong range control, nerf max velocity and agility to make them slightly less ****** proof

3. The cap regen on the Crucifier and Griffin should be double what the other two get. 2/s seems way too low anyway but especially for brawlers expected to run a slew of active mids it's a joke.

4. An additional tanking bonus on both the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin. Seriously -85% range is a massive negative that's not been compensated for anywhere in the bonuses. The other two have 3 positive bonuses and no penalties, Griffin/Crucifier have 3 positive bonuses and a massive penalty, give them resist bonuses.

5. Really think the Navy Crucifier should have neuts instead of td. If they want it to brawl give it a brawl ewar.

6. Navy Griffin has least amount of drones, slowest lock time, worst agility, almost slowest, almost biggest sig radius... could you maybe not make it worst or second worst in every base stat? How about making the Griffin and the Crucifier faster locking since their survival depends on it, they're expected to be ab fit and they don't have long range webs or scrams.

This is how far out of line they are imo.
erg cz
Eye to Eye
Synergy of Steel
#323 - 2015-11-30 13:29:55 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:

1. Everyone fit's webs/scram regardless of whether you're bonused or not, griffin and crucifier need to use an extra slot to fit their ewar. The Vigil and Maulus should lose a low slot.

2. The vigil and maulus are way too hard to counter because they have such strong range control, nerf max velocity and agility to make them slightly less ****** proof

3. The cap regen on the Crucifier and Griffin should be double what the other two get. 2/s seems way too low anyway but especially for brawlers expected to run a slew of active mids it's a joke.

4. An additional tanking bonus on both the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin. Seriously -85% range is a massive negative that's not been compensated for anywhere in the bonuses. The other two have 3 positive bonuses and no penalties, Griffin/Crucifier have 3 positive bonuses and a massive penalty, give them resist bonuses.

5. Really think the Navy Crucifier should have neuts instead of td. If they want it to brawl give it a brawl ewar.

6. Navy Griffin has least amount of drones, slowest lock time, worst agility, almost slowest, almost biggest sig radius... could you maybe not make it worst or second worst in every base stat? How about making the Griffin and the Crucifier faster locking since their survival depends on it, they're expected to be ab fit and they don't have long range webs or scrams.

This is how far out of line they are imo.


1. Maulus is already the slowest frigate out there. Only merlin / astero is at the same level of speed. Low slot will help at least partly counter that.

2. See above. Stop nerfing ships to almost unusable state. Buff other two, if really needed. Less speed and Maulus will be absolutely slowest ship out there.

3. Can be a very reasonable buff, IMHO. Especially for Crucifier.

4. Not so sure if that help. Your biggest concern is range control. If you think they will be kited, more HP will just make them suffer longer, not solving biggest issue.

5. Neuts against minmatar ships... Umm, do not think so. Lore say those ships should be counter against other race. Of cause that will help a lot against gallente or other amarr, but I still think tracking disruptor suits here more...

6. 100% ECM bonus. That, plus much stronger tank than maulus or Vigil, quicker, smaller, than Maulus ... I do not think it is much weakier than other EWAR navy. More PWG, more slots...

When I look at Griffin I think Maulus needs a buff here. Its misc bonus is almost unusable in usual PLEX combat (slaughter warp stabbed farmer is not a combat) cause +2 standard scram strength is already +1 more than enough. I saw susccessfull frigates in plex without any point at all. So +4 or +1 makes no difference.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#324 - 2015-11-30 16:48:23 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:

1. Everyone fit's webs/scram regardless of whether you're bonused or not, griffin and crucifier need to use an extra slot to fit their ewar. The Vigil and Maulus should lose a low slot.

2. The vigil and maulus are way too hard to counter because they have such strong range control, nerf max velocity and agility to make them slightly less ****** proof

3. The cap regen on the Crucifier and Griffin should be double what the other two get. 2/s seems way too low anyway but especially for brawlers expected to run a slew of active mids it's a joke.

4. An additional tanking bonus on both the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin. Seriously -85% range is a massive negative that's not been compensated for anywhere in the bonuses. The other two have 3 positive bonuses and no penalties, Griffin/Crucifier have 3 positive bonuses and a massive penalty, give them resist bonuses.

5. Really think the Navy Crucifier should have neuts instead of td. If they want it to brawl give it a brawl ewar.

6. Navy Griffin has least amount of drones, slowest lock time, worst agility, almost slowest, almost biggest sig radius... could you maybe not make it worst or second worst in every base stat? How about making the Griffin and the Crucifier faster locking since their survival depends on it, they're expected to be ab fit and they don't have long range webs or scrams.

This is how far out of line they are imo.


1. Maulus is already the slowest frigate out there. Only merlin / astero is at the same level of speed. Low slot will help at least partly counter that.

2. See above. Stop nerfing ships to almost unusable state. Buff other two, if really needed. Less speed and Maulus will be absolutely slowest ship out there.

3. Can be a very reasonable buff, IMHO. Especially for Crucifier.

4. Not so sure if that help. Your biggest concern is range control. If you think they will be kited, more HP will just make them suffer longer, not solving biggest issue.

5. Neuts against minmatar ships... Umm, do not think so. Lore say those ships should be counter against other race. Of cause that will help a lot against gallente or other amarr, but I still think tracking disruptor suits here more...

6. 100% ECM bonus. That, plus much stronger tank than maulus or Vigil, quicker, smaller, than Maulus ... I do not think it is much weakier than other EWAR navy. More PWG, more slots...

When I look at Griffin I think Maulus needs a buff here. Its misc bonus is almost unusable in usual PLEX combat (slaughter warp stabbed farmer is not a combat) cause +2 standard scram strength is already +1 more than enough. I saw susccessfull frigates in plex without any point at all. So +4 or +1 makes no difference.

1. And it's the fastest when its MWD is on and the enemy ship's MWD is off because it has 50% longer scram range. It being the slowest while also having 60k damage projection and long scams is completely fair.

2. See above. Also, Griffin and Crucifier need buffs, but the Vigil and Maulus still need small nerfs. Buffing things around them just creates power creep.

4. Still something. At least it makes them a bit better in the role they actually have.

5. I agree here.

6. Definitely weaker when will never get into its pathetic ECM range. It'll never get in range against anyone competent.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#325 - 2015-11-30 21:53:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Big thanks to all of you for the feedback so far.

After reading through what you folks have been saying, we agree that a few points merit changes pre-release and others will be watched closely after release.

A lot of you have been expressing concern that the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin are a little on the weak side. We've made a few adjustments to the plan, adding extra HP to both ships, increasing the strength of the cap use role bonus and expanding it to also reduce the CPU requirements of their chosen ewar. We've also reduced the base CPU a bit, but if you have at least one ewar module fit you'll be ahead thanks to the role bonus.
We know that this isn't going as far as some of you would have hoped, especially those of you who wanted more range on the ewar. We won't rule out increasing the range a bit in the future, but we want to see how these ships play out on TQ first, as they have a higher than average risk of feeling oppressive if they get too strong.

Many of you have also expressed concern that the Navy Maulus and Navy Vigil will be too strong, especially in kiting configurations. We also agree that these concerns merit pre-release changes, so we're making some adjustments to reduce the skirmishing power of these ships.

The Navy Maulus is losing a bit of HP and some speed. It will still be a powerful ship but this should help reduce the risk of it getting out of control. We are also increasing the strength of the role bonus, now adding +2 scramble strength to scramblers.

The Navy Vigil is having its damage bonuses converted to apply to rockets only. You'll still be able to kite with the web with help from Javelin rockets and/or range modules and rigs, but the Vigil should also excel at chasing down and catching kiters with its speed and long range webs, then killing them within standard rocket range.

Fozzie,

I am OK with the the range if the tank can justify getting in close enough without just getting blown up before you can get into range.

The rook and the scorpion are the only ECM ships that can do this, and both need logi support from insta primary, because neither ship has the dps to solo fight, unless your fighting someone below your weight class, and your set up just to kill them.

After this goes live, please post the 1st 30 days on kills/deaths. if it works with battlecruisers, it should work with these ships as well as an indication on where they are in the frigate food chain.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#326 - 2015-12-01 12:47:20 UTC
On attempting to fit a crucifier...........

Grid gimped. It wants to fit big guns to take advantage of the damage bonus, and it wants a mwd. 3 lows isn't conducive to active tanking, so it wants a plate.

compact mwd
400 compact plate
2x gatling pulse

Nothing else fitted. .3 grid over.

If it wanted to use that utility high it would have to fit gatling pulse and a 200mm plate. If that nigh-useless high was moved to a low, at least it would have a good slot layout even if it is pretty gimpy when it comes to the grid. That and active tanking would be an option (which I'll likely do anyway since that penalized TD is a joke).



If it were up to me, what I'd do with the crucifier/griffin is.........

Crucifier

Ditch the TD bonus/penalty. Turn that into a neut range bonus akin to sentinel, but with no amount bonus. Might need more grid for an injector and to account for the neut. The neut would add some solo utility, wouldn't do much in a gang but meh.

Griffin

Change the ecm bonus to a bonus to range/strength/cooldown of ecm bursts. It would be an odd ship, but that would make it really unique. The model would also need a troll.jpg painted on the side.

Grease PaYN
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#327 - 2015-12-01 16:51:36 UTC
The griffin and crucifier are being shoehorned into lowsec fw plex fights while you have the maulus and vigil being useful on essentially all types of pvp environments.

I think that's the discrepancy most people don't seem to agree with on the cruci/grif vs maulus/vigi debate.
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#328 - 2015-12-01 19:41:33 UTC
Grease PaYN wrote:
The griffin and crucifier are being shoehorned into lowsec fw plex fights while you have the maulus and vigil being useful on essentially all types of pvp environments.

I think that's the discrepancy most people don't seem to agree with on the cruci/grif vs maulus/vigi debate.


Frigates aren't my thing.. unless it's a travel fit inty. That Maulus though is going to see a lot of work at gate camps as fast point.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#329 - 2015-12-01 21:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Grease PaYN wrote:
The griffin and crucifier are being shoehorned into lowsec fw plex fights while you have the maulus and vigil being useful on essentially all types of pvp environments.

I think that's the discrepancy most people don't seem to agree with on the cruci/grif vs maulus/vigi debate.


I agree with this basic analysis. It has to do with the general utility of each racial electronic warfare. Once you take away the standoff from the normally long-range Amarr and Caldari electronic warfare, they are relatively useless (outside of a controlled environment). Once you give extra range to the normally short-range Minmatar and Gallente electronic warfare, they become incredibly useful.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#330 - 2015-12-02 08:08:08 UTC
Grease PaYN wrote:
The griffin and crucifier are being shoehorned into lowsec fw plex fights while you have the maulus and vigil being useful on essentially all types of pvp environments.

I think that's the discrepancy most people don't seem to agree with on the cruci/grif vs maulus/vigi debate.

And I think that's my basic issue with the design of these ships. Two of them are useful in only one circumstance, and they're even more limited then that because they're only good when they're waiting for the enemy on the warp in of a plex and able to scram targets instantly and hold them down because they'll never catch anything.

The Vigil and Maulus on the other hand are good in pretty much every situation. They will always have a use in a fleet.

It's just the plain fact that two are useless that bothers me about the design.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#331 - 2015-12-02 13:26:28 UTC
The navy crucifier has a lot of potential to be an awesome scram kiting ship, but the key word there is potential. Currently a fit with small focused beams is doing about the same dps as your typical scram kite executioner, but it's about 200 m/s slower. The slowness is really what breaks this ship's viability. If it was a little faster the TD would make it incredibly strong against other turret frigates, unfortunately there's a lot of drones and rockets running around in the FW meta so even then this ship would need more dps to be a strong contender (hint: the slicer has a 25% damage bonus per level) .

Additionally, this ship brings almost zero utility to a gang, which is ironically the advantage of most ewar related ships. Essentially this ship is caught between roles, and the overlap with other ships puts it in an unfavorable position. This is a problem that is common to a lot of t1 ships, especially amarr ones in the frigate/cruiser ranges. Ships really need a specific niche or they need solid stats to fit into the meta in a meaningful way. As it stands the navy crucifier has neither of these things.
Arla Sarain
#332 - 2015-12-02 13:50:21 UTC
All these ships are doing is still catering towards the scram kite/kite meta. Hence why the Griffin and Crucifier are not getting much faith.

The definition of a light, fast ship needs to change from being flat out fast to being more agile, particularly more agile against heavier ships, even of the same class. So that light ships could exploit the acceleration by changing direction dramatically, forcing their opponent to do the same and because of it losing the speed struggle due to the slower acceleration.

Otherwise you will keep juggling the random +/-5 m/s on random hulls hoping it's going to offer some odd margin of error for people to fight over.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#333 - 2015-12-02 14:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Torei Dutalis
Arla Sarain wrote:
All these ships are doing is still catering towards the scram kite/kite meta. Hence why the Griffin and Crucifier are not getting much faith.

The definition of a light, fast ship needs to change from being flat out fast to being more agile, particularly more agile against heavier ships, even of the same class. So that light ships could exploit the acceleration by changing direction dramatically, forcing their opponent to do the same and because of it losing the speed struggle due to the slower acceleration.

Otherwise you will keep juggling the random +/-5 m/s on random hulls hoping it's going to offer some odd margin of error for people to fight over.


The problem with this sentiment is that fast ships also tend to be highly agile (usually to an extreme degree). The only example we have of an agility based design as of ever is the Jackdaw. This is however really an example of 1.) massive prenerfing, and 2.) why high agility without speed is pretty much useless.

Especially with smaller ships at scram range, the differential in agility makes almost no impact when compared to top speed. The only scenarios in which this might be of serious impact is when we are talking about the kind of acceleration ships experience under oversized afterburners. As it is highly unlikely that a majority of ships will ever be changed to experience this degree of acceleration I think the idea of agility based ships is null and void.

I also think that it is important to not lump general kiting (long point MWD) and scram kiting into the same category. While they both rely on range dictation to achieve a combat advantage the meta for each type of play consists of very different ships and overall tactics, hence the differential in naming.

Additionally, the fact that changes that are perceived as small are important is a good thing in terms of balance. I personally only feel that one of these ships (the navy crucifier) is currently lacking a good niche to fit into. I realize that many people feel that the navy griffin will not perform up to standards, however I feel that they may be underestimating the effects of the improved fitting of the ship in addition to the ECM. I think that the navy griffin falls into the same kind of situation as the dragoon. The ship is solid, but generally people will be very intimidated by its EWAR capability and will therefore be very prone to blobbing it to avoid having to deal with potential losses. Even eschewing the use of ECM, having 5 mid slots is an uncommon and extremely powerful trait that few ships in this class can mirror. That said, I do believe that the ship could benefit from a 25% damage/level bonus over its current 20%/ level bonus.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#334 - 2015-12-02 14:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
I spent a while last night trying to fit the navy cruci... and it just doesn't work.

When looking at bonuses I had thought it might make a good FW novice plex small gang boat, but it doesn't cut it.

Notes:
1. Not enough pg. You have to fit an ancil current router to get a 400mm plate on with *any* type of guns. This means it pretty much has to be an active rep boat. This limits use to solo contexts.
2. Tank isn't great no matter what you do. Even if you do cram the 400mm plate in, the tank isn't anything special. Certainly not worth the extra money compared to tormentor.
3. Firepower isn't great. It's going be better than the torm's, but only barely. Only three lows makes for really hard fitting choices for an Amarr gunboat.
4. TD bonus isn't any better than normal cruci. But range is shot.

All together:
A beam+ab/web/scram/td (or 2xweb instead of td), active tank lows fit will do well as a solo scram kite brawler for fighting frigs and dessies and a pulse fit with nos and active rep may do well for fighting many cruisers. But outside that, the ship has little role, even in FW. It certainly does not scale up very well into a boat I would want with me in a frig gang.

It needs either more grid so that it can work as a proper amarrian brawler, or it needs a TD bonus that actually makes up for the range reduction.

Or, maybe, lose the utility high for a fourth low. Then I wouldn't care so much about having to waste a rig slot on an ancil.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#335 - 2015-12-02 15:18:56 UTC
Charlotte Inty wrote:
"+1 scramble strength to all Warp Scramblers"

Your stabbed days are over boys.


+2 to all warp scrams?

Even with two scrams I could catch a Transport Ship (Blockade Runner) with 4 WCs.
Tiffany Thorn
The Brothel Cartel
#336 - 2015-12-03 06:04:34 UTC
Ezmerald wrote:
So you are adding more cancer ECM ships to the game without even addressing the terrible game mechanism that is ECM? Why in gods name would you add more before fixing it and making ECCM mods actually work?


It's clear you've never flown ECM...

Clearly you've never had to fly a ship that has absolutely no tank with no guarantee of your modules actually working. Clearly you haven't had the warm fuzzy feeling of having your entire purpose in space tossed our the window over a set of bad RNG rolls, with no hope of actually doing anything for the next 20 seconds. Clearly all you see is your precious DPS count dropping, like every other meat-headed eJock and DudeBro.

Come back when you actually know what you're talking about.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#337 - 2015-12-03 07:47:06 UTC
Tiffany Thorn wrote:
Ezmerald wrote:
So you are adding more cancer ECM ships to the game without even addressing the terrible game mechanism that is ECM? Why in gods name would you add more before fixing it and making ECCM mods actually work?


It's clear you've never flown ECM...

Clearly you've never had to fly a ship that has absolutely no tank with no guarantee of your modules actually working. Clearly you haven't had the warm fuzzy feeling of having your entire purpose in space tossed our the window over a set of bad RNG rolls, with no hope of actually doing anything for the next 20 seconds. Clearly all you see is your precious DPS count dropping, like every other meat-headed eJock and DudeBro.

Come back when you actually know what you're talking about.


This.

People who are complaining have never flown EWAR. My Maulus never had any sort of decent tank and was paper thin at best. Overheating my MWD was my tank in small gang fights and sometimes I didn't make it. Agreed that most people are hung up on dealing out the heat, not preventing it.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#338 - 2015-12-03 13:43:08 UTC
The Navy Maulus and the Fleet Vigil are too hard to counter because of the range bonus to tackle, they'll push everything else out of the solo meta.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#339 - 2015-12-03 14:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Torei Dutalis
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The Navy Maulus and the Fleet Vigil are too hard to counter because of the range bonus to tackle, they'll push everything else out of the solo meta.


You do realize that the vigil only projects 200~ dps to 8.4km right? The web bonus is effectively wasted when using this ship solo. The dps on the navy maulus is really about the same as you would get from a tristan, its just tankier. You also have to keep in mind that this ship only has a base speed of 315 m/s which is really slow. Ships like the worm (post nerf) are still way way way more threatening than these ships will ever be. Rail comets (and all comets really) will still be a complete menace to novice plexes after these ships come out. There's no doubt that ships with range bonuses to tackle mods are strong ships, but you have to look at the whole ship to really come to a conclusion on balance.
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#340 - 2015-12-04 04:34:32 UTC
Torei Dutalis wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The Navy Maulus and the Fleet Vigil are too hard to counter because of the range bonus to tackle, they'll push everything else out of the solo meta.


You do realize that the vigil only projects 200~ dps to 8.4km right? The web bonus is effectively wasted when using this ship solo. The dps on the navy maulus is really about the same as you would get from a tristan, its just tankier. You also have to keep in mind that this ship only has a base speed of 315 m/s which is really slow. Ships like the worm (post nerf) are still way way way more threatening than these ships will ever be. Rail comets (and all comets really) will still be a complete menace to novice plexes after these ships come out. There's no doubt that ships with range bonuses to tackle mods are strong ships, but you have to look at the whole ship to really come to a conclusion on balance.


General consensus is that 2 of the 3 ships are OP. And can hold the targets untill the gang burns 10 systems over to whore on KM.
One ship (griffin) may be interesting.

Did I mention 4th ship? It does not exist even after the patch.