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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#81 - 2015-10-26 17:55:41 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Querns wrote:

You don't need to own a citadel/other structure BPO to own one of the structures. Purchase one from someone else.


True. But since Citadels replace Ship Maintenance Arrays, Corporate and Personal Hangar Arrays and Control Towers, anyone already owning those BPOs should be able to afford a Medium-siezd Citadel BPO. We're not even close. The current tag price goes from 625 millions (Small Tower) to 1B (Large Tower), for the same services.

Who says the costs have to be congruent? I see no reason to guarantee that.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#82 - 2015-10-26 18:02:08 UTC
I really like the amount of salvage required to build these rigs. That will be a much needed shot in the arm for explorers (and those who hunt them). Currently T2 small and medium rigs are so cheap it's pretty much a no brainer to use them on just about everything.

My recommendation would be to add some required components to the data sites as well, to encourage an equal level of competition for those sites.

All around, I would love to see tons of T1 minerals, T1 and T2 salvage, PI, and other basic materials go into these new structures. ISK is relatively worthless right now in Eve. Increasing the demand for the basic building blocks will go a long way towards curbing some of the horrific inflation we have seen.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Alt Pilot1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2015-10-26 18:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alt Pilot1
Guys, XL Citadels are supposed to be the end-game structure for large alliances, so they are supposed be a huge investment.

I don't think CCP wants players to be able to deploy XL Citadels en masse, like they are doing now with Titans and Supercarriers. So they are supposed to be a major investment even for a large alliance.

Think about it: it's an uber structure that you can use to dock Titans and Supercarriers - and the structure also has a Doomsday itself. How powerful is that? Not to mention the strategic advantage of being able to dock supercaps.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#84 - 2015-10-26 18:04:51 UTC
The price of the XL is too low. I'd bump it up another 10x, at least.

Sometimes, I think you devs underestimate how much ISK already exists in the game, and how much more can be easily generated per month by an alliance. Go look at supercap production numbers, to get a better idea.
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#85 - 2015-10-26 18:06:02 UTC
The price for the Citadel BPOs are fair. But the copying/ME/PE stats are far too short considering the price of the BPO and structure. A few BPOs in circulation would be able to satisfy market demand.

Why should I train Outpost Construction V?

T2 salvage requirements for T2 Citadel Rigs are quiet high (already missed the boat in both primary and secondary markets, good job market friends What?)

Will current station components get converted to the new ones on patch day?

Will Citadels in Amarr space require slaves or janitors?
Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-10-26 18:10:36 UTC
From Back Into Structure - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/?_ga=1.30661311.1259036344.1410318126

"Service modules possibilities: manufacturing of modules, ammunition, components, fuel blocks, capital components, subsystems and ships, among other things. One module will be required for the manufacturing of each category mentioned above. This means manufacturing will be less generalized as it is currently working within Starbases.

• Rigs possibilities: Material Efficiency (ME), Time Efficiency (TE) and NPC cost reduction bonuses. We want to ensure those new rigs provide more specialization than currently offered by Starbases and Outposts to offset for the generalization changes."



So you are adding complexity to Industrial building processes while also...


From I Feel Safe blog - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/i-feel-safe-in-citadel-city/

"Some of the input materials used in manufacturing or science jobs will drop as loot. " yet,
"Items located in personal or corporation hangars will be impounded and saved from destruction."



... putting active Industrialist efforts in disparity with other character assets while still not having a mechanism for contributing to either ADM or Citadel defense statistics.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2015-10-26 18:12:24 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Arbitrary components, do not reflect actual capability.


But... why? That makes absolutely no sense. That's like making a Doomsday Mount part of the requirements to build a freighter. Or to make a more relevant example, to have a freighter blueprint that doesn't require Capital Cargo Bay component. If you're gonna do something, do it right.

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Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#88 - 2015-10-26 18:13:04 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
When POS were introduced you couldn't make ISK like you can now. There's so many other differences between a POS and a Citadel, you can't expect the prices to be 1:1.


Good, because I'm not asking for a 1:1 ratio. Only for a BPO price that people currently owning a set of POS/POS module BPOs set can afford. That's not the case right now.

Alt Pilot1 wrote:
Guys, XL Citadels are supposed to be the end-game structure for large alliances, so they are supposed be a huge investment.

Think about it: it's an uber structure that you can use to dock Titans and Supercarriers - and the structure also has a Doomsday itself. How powerful is that? Not to mention the strategic advantage of being able to dock supercaps.

So they are supposed to be a major investment, even for a large alliance. And I don't think CCP want players to be able to deploy XL Citadels en masse, like they are doing with Titans and Supercarriers.


I'm talking about Medium Citadels, and the lack of in-space storage facilities to replace Small and Medium POSes.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#89 - 2015-10-26 18:20:46 UTC
Eodp Ellecon wrote:
From Back Into Structure - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/?_ga=1.30661311.1259036344.1410318126

"Service modules possibilities: manufacturing of modules, ammunition, components, fuel blocks, capital components, subsystems and ships, among other things. One module will be required for the manufacturing of each category mentioned above. This means manufacturing will be less generalized as it is currently working within Starbases.

• Rigs possibilities: Material Efficiency (ME), Time Efficiency (TE) and NPC cost reduction bonuses. We want to ensure those new rigs provide more specialization than currently offered by Starbases and Outposts to offset for the generalization changes."



So you are adding complexity to Industrial building processes while also...


From I Feel Safe blog - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/i-feel-safe-in-citadel-city/

"Some of the input materials used in manufacturing or science jobs will drop as loot. " yet,
"Items located in personal or corporation hangars will be impounded and saved from destruction."



... putting active Industrialist efforts in disparity with other character assets while still not having a mechanism for contributing to either ADM or Citadel defense statistics.





You of all people should know that CCP won't give ADM benefits for manufacturing. It's far too easy to game.

Also, considering that any industry jobs started in a POS are lost if the POS is destroyed, the effect for the industrialist is the same. The fact that some of the materials drop as loot is just giving attackers a cherry on top; it wouldn't cost anything outside of what is normal for an industrialist unfortunate enough to suffer such a disruption.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
#90 - 2015-10-26 18:30:24 UTC
I'd just like to point out that "X will be so expensive that only a handful will be built by the biggest alliances" is a demonstrably horrible design philosophy. I'm pretty sure CCP Fozzie previously stated this fact in regard to titans and super caps. Now CCP is doing it again with XL Citadels. I predict Deklein will be filled to the brim with XL citadels within a year. Billions of isk is not cost prohibitive when you have individual players toting around trillions.
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2015-10-26 18:36:14 UTC
Citadels is a major change in eve.
A all new way of thinking the game so there's nothing worth commenting the work in progress except that we want eve to evolve and that first preview make people dream.

More of that, CCP, you learnt the hard way how to deal with us : spreadsheet porn to let our imagination bloom !

BUT

You forgot one thing !!

We want billboard service everywhere around like in real shopping mall and scam everyone with leaks photo of our beloved CEO naked !
So please, release Ad Services with citadels xD

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#92 - 2015-10-26 18:37:18 UTC
Grorious Reader wrote:
I'd just like to point out that "X will be so expensive that only a handful will be built by the biggest alliances" is a demonstrably horrible design philosophy. I'm pretty sure CCP Fozzie previously stated this fact in regard to titans and super caps. Now CCP is doing it again with XL Citadels. I predict Deklein will be filled to the brim with XL citadels within a year. Billions of isk is not cost prohibitive when you have individual players toting around trillions.


You really shouldn't paraphrase with quoting:

Quote:
we want the X-Large to be quite an expensive goal to achieve. This should require significant effort to complete, not something easily achieved by just anyone.


That isn't the same as saying that only a handful should be built nor is it designing with cost as a limiting factor.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2015-10-26 18:39:12 UTC
Grorious Reader wrote:
I'd just like to point out that "X will be so expensive that only a handful will be built by the biggest alliances" is a demonstrably horrible design philosophy. I'm pretty sure CCP Fozzie previously stated this fact in regard to titans and super caps. Now CCP is doing it again with XL Citadels. I predict Deklein will be filled to the brim with XL citadels within a year. Billions of isk is not cost prohibitive when you have individual players toting around trillions.

I'm not seeing the benefit to dozens of these in the same region versus other things we could do with that isk. They're massive, cool, and have great defenses but each new one has a declining marginal utility in a region.
Marox Calendale
Xynodyne
The Initiative.
#94 - 2015-10-26 18:48:05 UTC
What Skills will be needed to deploy Citadels in Space?

Will Cloning Centers be fittable in WH-Space? And if yes, how will they work there?
Sabastian Cerabiam
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#95 - 2015-10-26 18:50:54 UTC
I wana know whats gona happen with those of us that have POS bpos. Will they get converted to equivalent citadel ones or will we somehow get reimbursed the isk we spent to buy them?
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2015-10-26 18:51:39 UTC
Can you provide any information about how/if existing fuel blocks can be converted to structure fuel blocks? Or do we have to reprocess them to take a material loss(reprocessing efficiency)?

.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#97 - 2015-10-26 18:58:56 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Can you provide any information about how/if existing fuel blocks can be converted to structure fuel blocks? Or do we have to reprocess them to take a material loss(reprocessing efficiency)?

pos won't be deleted for a good long while, year+ minimum

no reason to sort this out now but the best solution would be market buy orders or just converting them into their base constituent parts
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#98 - 2015-10-26 18:59:41 UTC
The structure blog link regarding the hull composition has the Large Citadel structure size at 80km3

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68671/1/Structurecompositioncomponent.png

Unless my EFT is wrong, a max cargo Orca tops out over 100km3 of cargo. That would mean, unless there is a launching restriction to the freighter class, that a Large Citadel could be transported in an Orca which does fit inside lower class wormhole systems.

Is there a launching restriction on L and XL Citadels limited them to Freighters or is it purely a cargo limitation, in which case, the Freighter comment in the devblog was incorrect?
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#99 - 2015-10-26 19:02:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:

Copy time or cost probably should be changed - I think copy time is the big outlier here. You have some idea of how many of these structures you expect will exist but my guess is a few dozen at most in the first year. You shouldn't be able to make many more bpcs than structures intended to be deployed. You need a bpc market of course - not every null alliance can be expected to put up 700b to get their foot in the door - but you've got to have it so the bpcs any one bpo can produce are some fraction of expected demand. With a base build time of 30 days, I'd set copy time to at least 30 days and probably much more - unlike supercapitals, there is no need for you to copy this bpo to produce with it safely. You can produce in-station off the bpo itself so copy time can be a freebie for when the bpo is not in use and can be longer than the production time, even several multiples of it without it being a big problem for the market.

The bpo cost of these is 10x what a titan bpo costs, the bpc copy time is ~1/6th of a titan bpo copy time, and most titan bpcs are pretty cheap. Leviathans are the only one where the bpo isn't glutted but even those run only 1-2b each.

I'd probably make it a several month base copy time so that you get people buying the bpos initially so they can get a leg up on deploying them and use of the bpo is tilted more towards manufacturing than copying. At a minimum producing them and copying them should be roughly the same time or at a minimum at the ratio of t2 bpos. Copying in 1/6th of the time to build it seems way, way off.


Fair point, duly noted, we'll iterate on copy time. Thanks!


http://imgur.com/a/XJHbH Created a pair of graphs (and log versions) to show how badly out of wack the new blueprints are with a cart of other large scale items. I can provide the source spreadsheet as well if people want it. You can work backwards to make these numbers match up with the rest of the universe.

These numbers are cost of BPO / Blueprint time in seconds to build, copy or ME/TE.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2015-10-26 19:05:23 UTC
Can you please consider adding a defensive module (or rig) for something like "Overview Inhibitor"? The idea being that the citadel (or structure) will NOT show up on the overview but instead will need to be found by dscan and then probing it down (non-trivial to probe down, maybe even requiring sister's+virtues)? The idea being to give the little guy a chance to hide a medium citadel in unused space. The system "owner" will require real work (probing down each system) to find any unwelcome guests rather than just flying a fast interceptor through space and looking at the overview.

My main concern (in lowsec) is that the more powerful groups will just go after citadels for giggles because they can. If they want to actively hunt me and look for targets, then so be it. However, they should at least put in some effort to find me. Yes, they can still dscan/probe them down, but that takes time and they probably cannot keep looking in EVERY system but rather systems they want to control or systems they suspect people they don't like live.

.