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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: And thus it begins!

First post First post
Author
Tarra Nobilii
Sinntha Family
Synnatha
#121 - 2015-10-25 14:15:31 UTC
I think we all need a bit more details to fully provide effective feedback (what are some general numbers of ehp rebalance are we talking about, the supercarrier role is not very fleshed out, and lots of general but unfocused concerns all around).
1. Since there is not a ehp bar for my fighters and I will eventually lose one, without much of a notice or ability to do anything about it, will the fighters repair themselves while 'docked' in the super? I am not comfortable in pvp or pve with fighters that will magically drop off and effectively lower dps. The cost of replacing fighters under this system seems super high. Under our current system, if a singular fighter/bomber is getting low on ehp, I can recall. Under this new proposed system, it seems like my squadron will get hit and there isnt much I can do about it. So, as stated, will they repair/replenish or be built in the super? (since this is so much like a Homeworld mechanic).
2. Will dreads/carriers be getting their EHP nerfed? They already easily die to subcaps. I dont fully understand how they are unbalanced at present. Unless their ability to kill subcaps is MUCH greater (which may or may not be part of the rebalance; again details were sparce), then I think this is a problem. This is also couple with their build cost. Will build cost remain the same for these ships with less ehp?
3. Supers already take 20-30 seconds to warp. If we are putting plates on these already slow ships, should we expect align times of 1 minute or will base agility be looked at? This may be mitigated with capital MWD...but again we dont have many details to have any opinions of things atm.
4. With the new citadels, I have concerns about bumping and tethering. So, if I am in a system and using a Medium Citadel...will i have to make sure local is completely clear to avoid my titan bumping 50km off the station model or will tethering grab me in some way? Will bridging create a weapons timer? Will I be able to bridge while tethered? If i am untethered to bridge, will i then bump off if i am being held by the tether to the station model? This whole mechanic raisers a number of concerns. Having a 70b base price POS (essentially a citadel) is not something we can throw up in many/all of the systems we may operate out of. I would like to know how vulnerable my titan/super will be in these situations.
5. Other than XL weapons specialization, will any other skills be added for the new weaponry?
6. Will capital hulls get racial bonuses of anykind? The statement was made about the nidhoggur not being the black sheep and there are also statements about remote repping not being effective on capitals...so, will there be any differences from one capital to another (bonus wise)?
7. any details on capital tackle mods? (range for example)
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2015-10-25 14:18:57 UTC
MtyRoyal wrote:
"The incredibly talented and endlessly creative players of EVE Online have taken combat refitting to its extremes. "

So I don't get your aim here. You appear to be punishing the ‘Talented’ and ‘Creative’ to enhance the mediocre. Isn’t refitting with a combat timer just part of mastering the gameplay? That fact that so many caps get killed already shows that players are already compensating for the refitting on their own. I’d say kill this change.

This is a sound business decision. "Talented" and "creative" players pay much less subscription fees than those who are less "talented" and "creative."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#123 - 2015-10-25 14:19:10 UTC
Smertyukovitch wrote:
So this is how i see things: over time you CCP nerfed EHP of super-capitals, their effectiveness against sub-capitals. Then last year you've decided to kill them completely and introduced jump fatigue, separated them from sov system, removed fighter assistance. Now you're going to reduce effectiveness against sub-capitals even further, nerf EHP even more, remove e-war immunity. And for what? So that we could shoot at some "epic" structures for like 3 hours in a week? In a massive slow defenceless bricks? With DPS limits to those structures that could be reached by couple dozen cheap, agile and fast cruisers? Why would someone even want to own a super-capital?

And i'm not even talking about WH residents that currently use dreads for ratting, they will really "enjoy" all this.

Please consider that you are drawing a lot of assumptions based on the principles we've laid out at Vegas without knowing any of the hard numbers. This may the unavoidable consequence of revealing the basic principles of a design before the specifics, but that is hopefully offset by the amount of valuable discussion on the core principles and mechanics that is now taking place.

Just remember, a sizeable process of planning, feedback and iteration is still to come so please be patient and stay tuned, we really appreciate your assistance in making the capital rework as awesome as we can for all involved Smile

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#124 - 2015-10-25 14:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
A few questions (edit: ok, more than a few) that come up as I go through the devblog (ALL DEM WERDS):

Fleet and Ship Hangars -
- Are you anticipating that the existing hangar sizes be adjusted for caps which already feature these?
- Will dreads get the same hangar space as carriers?
- Did you/would you consider splitting away the hangars to another specialised class of ships ("Fleet Transporters?") as you are doing with the remote rep abilities? We already have the Bowhead, but something with a jump drive and fitting options/EHP in line with the rest of the cap fleet?

Remote Repair -
- Will carriers be completely barred from capital remote rep usage, or will it remain as a less powerful choice through adjustments/removal of base stats and bonuses? The idea of a 'ghetto slowcat' fleet of carriers with unbonused/nerfed repping power akin to a remote-rep battleship fleet could still be interesting without being nearly as broken as the current status quo.

E-war Immunity -
- Will immunity be one statline or vary according to the ewar being used? It could be interesting thematically if, say, Minmatar supercaps had greater vulnerability (or perhaps greater resistance?) to Amarr e-war types, and that's something you could implement if the immunities/resistances were split out. You're already talking of web resistance as a separate stat so taking that further seems logical.
- Energy Warfare resistance? Just throwing that out there.


Total EHP -
- Will the massive variations between armour and shield hitpoints on supercaps be bought back in line? It always felt weird that post-Dominion the relative hitpoints of each defence layer varied so wildly on supercaps whilst on smaller classes the two hitpoint totals were much closer together.

Capital Warp Disruptors and Scramblers
- You state that Officer points and scrams are capital modules, but at the present time they can be fitted to a battleship without much trouble - its rarely a great idea, but is certainly possible. Does this mean we can expect changes to be made to the fitting and effects of these modules?

Fighters -
- Are the hitpoints going away completely, or just moving 'behind the scenes'? If my fighter status is 'damaged' is that from a hitpoint reduction or a diceroll outcome? Does a damaged fighter have reduced abilities?
- Can fighter squadrons actually be targeted and attacked by our ship weapons, or only by other fighters?
- If a squadron flies into a smartbomb activation or other AoE effect is every fighter hit individually or is the hit resolved against the squadron as a whole?
- Will there still be the racial variants of each fighter type with their own characteristics? Will we be able to launch mixed squadrons? Will there be more faction fighters (Wraith and Spectre!)?
- Are fighter squadrons limited to the 250km range cap of our ship targetting? What happens if a fighter squadron crosses a grid boundary?
- Can fighter squadrons decloak ships?

Superweapons -
- Are the new doomsdays replacing the existing ones or are they alternative options?
- Are they still limited to 1 per ship?
- Will subcap ships rendered immobile (such as those with active cyno fields or in Bastion mode) be affected by Hand of God?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

drunklies
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#125 - 2015-10-25 14:21:33 UTC
I look forward to the exciting and compelling tactical gameplay available to my seiged dread when hit by a new doomsday.

The navigational options alone are mindboggling, let alone the potential for refitting to survive.



Refitting is a problem with endless RR. It is however of vital importance to any ship that is cut off from remote support.

Mastering a dread is now a matter of here is a corp fit, insure it and die when primed. Follow targets. Enjoy having compelling gameplay.

Mastering triage is now rep until they bring neuts. Die.

I'm so glad that super can now make target painters 12% less effective. Seems like a great investment of 20 bil.


Will you by apply the refitting changes to all ships, or just the ones that take years and billions to acquire? If the former, do you have any idea of what to do with the nestor?

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2015-10-25 14:24:30 UTC
If ewar immunity is being removed, does that mean remote assistance will be possible again?
Darirol
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2015-10-25 14:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Darirol
hand of god doomsday:

basicly you could warp some smartbomb battleships in a perfectly scattered blobb of enemy ships, use the doomsday and a few seconds later you have 50 or 100 enemy ship right on top of your smartbomb squad.
with like 10 smartbomb battleships you could basicly "pipe bomb" enemy fleets.


does it work that way? iam not sure how the warm up phase works and if it is possible to escape the doomsday. depending on this it could be kind of broken or just fine.
Prt Scr
569th Freelancers
#128 - 2015-10-25 14:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Prt Scr
The rorqual.

The rorqual.

The rorqual.


You forgot the damm rorqual again Bear

With the squads. of fighters will they be getting a change , i.e. 1 fighter becomes 5? (or something along this line) with the corresponding changes to material needs to build, and the same with the fighter skill, will it be I squad. per level or will we need to train up a pile of extra skills to make max. use of a ship?

uɐıssnɹ pɐǝɹ ʇ,uɐɔ ı ʇnq ʎɹɹos ɯ,ı

drunklies
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#129 - 2015-10-25 14:34:27 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Smertyukovitch wrote:
So this is how i see things: over time you CCP nerfed EHP of super-capitals, their effectiveness against sub-capitals. Then last year you've decided to kill them completely and introduced jump fatigue, separated them from sov system, removed fighter assistance. Now you're going to reduce effectiveness against sub-capitals even further, nerf EHP even more, remove e-war immunity. And for what? So that we could shoot at some "epic" structures for like 3 hours in a week? In a massive slow defenceless bricks? With DPS limits to those structures that could be reached by couple dozen cheap, agile and fast cruisers? Why would someone even want to own a super-capital?

And i'm not even talking about WH residents that currently use dreads for ratting, they will really "enjoy" all this.

Please consider that you are drawing a lot of assumptions based on the principles we've laid out at Vegas without knowing any of the hard numbers. This may the unavoidable consequence of revealing the basic principles of a design before the specifics, but that is hopefully offset by the amount of valuable discussion on the core principles and mechanics that is now taking place.

Just remember, a sizeable process of planning, feedback and iteration is still to come so please be patient and stay tuned, we really appreciate your assistance in making the capital rework as awesome as we can for all involved Smile


Smert is drawing assumptions based exactly on what you have said.

EHP nerfs, incoming.
Ewar immunity, gone.
Defences. If triage is the barrier of entry to killing that super fleet, then yeah, seeing as 5 guys in subs can kill a triage without breaking a sweat.
Jump Fatgiue, still a cancer for everyone who doesnt want solo frig pvp, or move more then 6 ly.
DPS limits, set in the citadel dev blog.

This is the vision you have. Someone has pointed out that it looks kinda ****** for caps and supers. Don't insult them by saying they are working from the wrong assumptions.

You want to make it awesome, easy. Give everything that cannot receive remote assistance the ability to refit, off themselves, always. Give everyone else the ability to refit off of ships with fleet hangers. Acknowledge that mass refitting is only really a problem when combine with endless RR.

Oh, and consider doing something other then a target painting debuff for supers.
Oskolda Eriker
WH0RE SQUAD
#130 - 2015-10-25 14:37:38 UTC
Whats about refitting caps just in triage/siegej or no 1 min aggro timer?
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#131 - 2015-10-25 14:39:45 UTC
Now would also be a good time to review the blanket ban on non-ammo/charge cargo within ship maintenance bays.

This was added to prevent loophole that is no longer remotely feasible thanks to the jump drive nerfs. All that's left is an arbitrary rule that heavily hinders the utility of SMAs; spare ships can't carry all sorts of useful gear from ozone and stront, to alternative fittings, to deployables like mobile depots and anchorable bubbles. Having a ship hangar in a supporting role rewards prior preparation, and this game mechanic becomes far more valuable when fully equipped ships can be supplied at a crucial moment.

The two most obvious solutions I see for this are:
a) Allow any cargo except for containers, preventing further nested contents.
and/or
b) Allow cargo up to the ships' base cargobay size before skill, module and rig bonuses. Ships can bring their typical essentials, like stront for entosising or alternative mods, but still can't be used for bulk transport.


Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#132 - 2015-10-25 14:40:39 UTC
Oh yeah CCP, you forgot to include an item in the "New Capital Modules" section...

We are going to get Capital Target Spectrum Breakers, right?
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#133 - 2015-10-25 14:50:22 UTC
thearrowofapollo wrote:
I mean...WHY NOT?

CCP mashed up the game so much...making titans and supers even more useless i guess won't matter that much.
Like it's not enough you pay over 130bil for a titan+fits....and you can't take a dread out with a dd... they have to make it even worse...

Supers? Why not nerf their HP and bonuses even more....they rly are OP now, and abused in daily gameplay....

TBH CCP... your marketing and Guest satisfaction (players in our case) is as ****** as it can get. You cannot have ppl investing all this time in training and buying titans and supers, fitting them with tens of billions worth of items, so you can make those ships worse and worse and worthless with any major patch you're implementing.

It is bad enough the player database is extremely low, and instead of you thinking of ways to get players back, and bringing new ones, you're actually forcing us to leave??? Because this is what you ARE doing if you look at the big picture.

Some more questions ( which i'm sure you have no answers, or there is still decisions to be made upon):

1: If all supers and titans can be tackled by any ship....what will the HICS role be? Will they be immune to the "Hand of God"?

2: If supers and titans can only be docked in XL citadels, that means POS's will still remain fulfilling the same roles they have now? Or you will be forcing every titan player to be in an alliance that owns a XL citadel, so that their titans won't be left to float in space?

3: This new doomsday's, will they give you the same timer like the present doomsday? So if you activate all your doomsday's, will the titan be stuck in the system for 30 minutes, unable to jump out / cloak ?

4: On your next EVE VEGAS, can there be a pre-selection of participants, with guys that will ask proper questions? guys that really care about the game? Like instead of paying all those tickets for the 1000 CCP guys with no oratorical skills to be present there, useless...get the major alliances leaders involved, bring them there, and let them ask questions, let them sit at the round table...because they are the ones guiding and leading your customers, they are the ones bringing numbers, fights, losses...they are the ones that directly or indirectly keep the game you're trying to kill still alive.


Tackled by any ship? Warp strength around 50... What ship points for a strength of 50!? You would need around 25 frigs to hold it down while surviving the onslaught from light squadrons
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#134 - 2015-10-25 14:54:24 UTC
I'm sure everyone is all juming up and down cause they know now whats coming..

however dear devs,


WHAT ABOUT THE RORQUAL??????

That's a capital ship remember.
Ardden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2015-10-25 15:04:03 UTC
So when a drone/fighter dock to "re-arm" do they repair as well or is that still "target-rep-send it on its way"?
Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#136 - 2015-10-25 15:08:08 UTC
Anth9rax wrote:
Am I ever going to be able to Dock my Nyx, what a waste of a character, just sitting in it.


The Eve Vegas footing of Titans undocking from Citadels implies that you finally will be able to dock up and use the public toilets there..
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#137 - 2015-10-25 15:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
I am very pleased with the proposed changes to carriers.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to brag and point out that I am so ahead of the meta, I proposed this exact role change over 20 moths ago.

[/bragging]

Cool

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#138 - 2015-10-25 15:10:53 UTC
Aesir Terona wrote:
did they get a new furnace installed at CCP HQ? There must be a fume problem in that building, because someone would have to be huffing diesel truck exhaust to think these changes were good.


Thanks for the giant "Screw you" to everyone who trained triage II. Completely uprooting the the triage carrier pilot will go over grand.


ummm... LOGI CARRIER will be AWESOME for triage pilots! We get our own LOGI carriers! Logi all the things! Watch the damn vegas videos
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2015-10-25 15:13:33 UTC
Nerf to dreads - boo
Can't refit due to weapons timer - boo. You are killing the best part of flying capitals. Anyone want to buy my Nestor?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2015-10-25 15:15:23 UTC
Ardden wrote:
So when a drone/fighter dock to "re-arm" do they repair as well or is that still "target-rep-send it on its way"?

It looks like fighters become more like ammo than a drone. Damage is expressed as a reduction in the count of fighters rather than damage done to a drone.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.