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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: And thus it begins!

First post First post
Author
Lando Cenvax
The Nose Picker Clown Group
#161 - 2015-10-25 16:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lando Cenvax
Interesting and welcome changes. Especially the weapons timer for refitting. Highly appreciated. I realize this is about PvP, but any news on the Rorq? That needs a make-over as well following the recent passive nerfs... compression-arrays are POS-Modules now and Jump-Clones are available at every corner...

Given the new modules: A little bit more please. Like T2, Deadspace, Faction. Possibly Fleet-Hangar Extender.

Also allow ships to dock with cargo, as long it's not a hauling/industrial ship. This one of the most annoying things of the Ship-Maintenance Bay. Like those <350m ³ of cargo matter when docking at a capital sized ship... -.-'

Although, the logic you apply to warp drives should not end at supercarriers:
Quote:
Warping: Supercarriers and Titans will have an innate warp strength of around 20 to 50. We haven't locked these numbers in and we'd love to hear from you on what you think is appropriate.

Please introduce this to all ships of New Eden. The larger the ships, the more difficult to tackle. Vice-versa their own warp-core-strength is their warp-scramble-strength (if a scrambler is fitted, T1 disruptor get 50% penalty on scramble strenght). Interceptors (also their T1 counterpart) should get massive bonus to scramble-strength. I think that would make people a lot more willing to undock their precious carrier, battleship,... if not any random frig can easily tackle it.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#162 - 2015-10-25 16:30:38 UTC
Smertyukovitch wrote:
drunklies wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Smertyukovitch wrote:
So this is how i see things: over time you CCP nerfed EHP of super-capitals, their effectiveness against sub-capitals. Then last year you've decided to kill them completely and introduced jump fatigue, separated them from sov system, removed fighter assistance. Now you're going to reduce effectiveness against sub-capitals even further, nerf EHP even more, remove e-war immunity. And for what? So that we could shoot at some "epic" structures for like 3 hours in a week? In a massive slow defenceless bricks? With DPS limits to those structures that could be reached by couple dozen cheap, agile and fast cruisers? Why would someone even want to own a super-capital?

And i'm not even talking about WH residents that currently use dreads for ratting, they will really "enjoy" all this.

Please consider that you are drawing a lot of assumptions based on the principles we've laid out at Vegas without knowing any of the hard numbers. This may the unavoidable consequence of revealing the basic principles of a design before the specifics, but that is hopefully offset by the amount of valuable discussion on the core principles and mechanics that is now taking place.

Just remember, a sizeable process of planning, feedback and iteration is still to come so please be patient and stay tuned, we really appreciate your assistance in making the capital rework as awesome as we can for all involved Smile


Smert is drawing assumptions based exactly on what you have said.

EHP nerfs, incoming.
Ewar immunity, gone.
Defences. If triage is the barrier of entry to killing that super fleet, then yeah, seeing as 5 guys in subs can kill a triage without breaking a sweat.
Jump Fatgiue, still a cancer for everyone who doesnt want solo frig pvp, or move more then 6 ly.
DPS limits, set in the citadel dev blog.

This is the vision you have. Someone has pointed out that it looks kinda ****** for caps and supers. Don't insult them by saying they are working from the wrong assumptions.

You want to make it awesome, easy. Give everything that cannot receive remote assistance the ability to refit, off themselves, always. Give everyone else the ability to refit off of ships with fleet hangers. Acknowledge that mass refitting is only really a problem when combine with endless RR.

Oh, and consider doing something other then a target painting debuff for supers.


The key point of all i'm saying is that risk \ profit ballance should work both ways. Building something big, costly and demanding should give players some advantages. Before this summer is was DPS to structures, ratting support, home defense support etc. With the changes outlined in citadels dev blog and this capital ships rework dev blog it still feels like there's no actual sense in owning capital ship and having 2-3 years old char just to pilot it decently. I'd be happy if you prove me wrong with actual numbers CCP but as i said this is how i see upcoming changes based on my experience with EVE Online.



I know its a radicle idea, but just maybe you could more than one ship per character. See this character. It can fly dreads *and* battleships and a few other things besides. also it is less than 20 days away from a carrier. My other accounts can also fly more than one ship.

Also for a lot of people these ships just aren't that expensive anymore. And i see more people losing them getting welped now than before.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#163 - 2015-10-25 16:30:41 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Since refitting during combat is being removed...


Refitting during combat is ~not~ being removed. All they're doing is preventing you from changing your fit while you're actively attacking someone else. You'll still be perfectly able to adjust your ship during a fight, it just requires you hold off firing guns for a minute.
The Mach
Phocas Legacy
From Ashes we Rise
#164 - 2015-10-25 16:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: The Mach
Swinging the NERFBAT at NullSec and WormHole ISK making with the Dread nerf isnt a good idea. You are devaluing two of the largest regions of space. Here are my Issues, some in question form"


  • -Why make dreads the "Gun" platform if you're nerfing their guns to the point where a carrier is probably more effective at doing damage?
  • -Highsec incursions have devalued Nullsec space.
  • -What is the point of owning a Citadel or contributing to one If the average nullsec player is risking more for less reward than just hanging out in HighSec?



Please look at the value of each type of space (High, Low, Null, WormHole).. I think CCP has lost sight of this slightly but this is a great opportunity to fix it. If I'm willing to Risk a $5,000,0000,000 ISK Dread than I ought to be able to make more than a highsec incursion..

I just hope someone who can understand reads this...
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#165 - 2015-10-25 16:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Stuff


You totally need to watch the Capital video. fighters work totally different now. You position them on the system map where you want them and give them orders. If you ever played the Homeworld Series of Games it works like moving squadrons around in it. Set where you want them to move issue orders. They do move around the map again and now have a multitude of commands you can issue them

We now have Squadrons insteads of individual fighters. With a Max of 5 Squadrons that can hold up to a max of 12 fighters
There will be 3 Types of Fighter Squadrons
Light ( Anti-subcaps)
Heavy (Anti-Capital)
Support (ewar, nueting, scramming etc)

Squadron will have certain abilities depending on the type which could include a max of 3
Anti-capital torpedos
Anti-fighter missile swarm
Bombs
Evasive maneuvers
EWAR - scramming, neuting
Microwarp
Microjump
Special Weapons

Carriers and above will no longer use Drones and fighter bombers get Wrapped into the new types of Heavy Fighters. The Range limitation is gone because now you have system control and move the drones over the system. Much akin to an actual carrier. You have no place on the battlefield, You launch fighters from safety and send them into the Combat Zone. Using an all new control scheme Akin to Homeworld.


I totally have and i get their moving towards a homeworld direction, but I'd like more specifics than what the video provides.

More over, they can't bring basck skynet (not that I'm complaining if they do, long liv skynet) and then complain about it later on in the sense of "risk free off grid pvp is bad mmmkay"

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#166 - 2015-10-25 16:32:40 UTC
afkalt wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
2. With the talk on reduction of hit points on Supers and Titans, don't you think people will be even more risk adverse with capitals? That people will only commit them to the field if they have a guaranteed chance of not losing any?

A question for (all of) you: Do you think that being able to deploy with a guarantee that you won't lose anything is healthy/good for the game? Not even high-sec makes that promise.



No, but that's what people have been used to for years.

They'll be less happy about this, than phoebe.


Good riddance.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#167 - 2015-10-25 16:33:53 UTC
The Mach wrote:
Swinging the NERFBAT at NullSec and WormHole ISK making with the Dread nerf isnt a good idea. You are devaluing two of the largest regions of space. Here are my Issues, some in question form"


  • -Why make dreads the "Gun" platform if you're nerfing their guns to the point where a carrier is probably more effective at doing damage?
  • -Highsec incursions have devalued Nullsec space.
  • -What is the point of owning a Citadel or contributing to one If the average nullsec player is risking more for less reward than just hanging out in HighSec?



Please look at the value of each type of space (High, Low, Null, WormHole).. I think CCP has lost sight of this slightly but this is a great opportunity to fix it. If I'm willing to Risk a $5,000,0000,000 ISK Dread than I ought to be able to make more than a highsec incursion..

I just hope someone who can understand reads this...

Please tell us where you're doing PVE in nullsec with dreads.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nou Mene
Krypted Gaming
K R Y P T E D
#168 - 2015-10-25 16:34:00 UTC
Albeit I'm not too concerned about cap warfare. Even when I'm almost getting into a dread with PvE purposes (imo caps should shust be erased). I have 2 concerns:

1) You giving caps (dreads) a specialized anti sub-cap weapon. Can sub-caps get a specialized anti cap weapon?. The concept I would like/suggest is something like Starcraft's void rays, where a weapon does more damage the longer it's been shooting at the same target. You could add heavy penalties for it, high cap usage, 100% speed reduction; and making only fittable in certain ships (marauders? blops? new t3 bs? or just only BS).

2) Weapon timer refitting. Again, I'm a strange to cap warfare so I'm not going there. My case is for Nestors. Is it possible to add an exception for them? The Nestor is a complex and rich ship, its interesting to fly because it can refit, refitting in battle des-incentivises multiboxing, current Nestor pushes the pilot tactically, strategically and mechanically. Even when i understand the argument for carriers, Nestors just don't have the ehp to be played exactly like carriers. You are making it a glorified logi.
PLZ don't kill Nestors.


I'm actually more psyched for structures than caps. While ehp on caps is getting nerfed, the buffed dps and tools they are getting makes them probably more overpowered vs sub-caps than before. From my small group point of view this means less and less chances to punish bad cap pilots.

Greetings.
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#169 - 2015-10-25 16:35:04 UTC
Querns wrote:
loquacious7 wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Smertyukovitch wrote:
So this is how i see things: over time you CCP nerfed EHP of super-capitals, their effectiveness against sub-capitals. Then last year you've decided to kill them completely and introduced jump fatigue, separated them from sov system, removed fighter assistance. Now you're going to reduce effectiveness against sub-capitals even further, nerf EHP even more, remove e-war immunity. And for what? So that we could shoot at some "epic" structures for like 3 hours in a week? In a massive slow defenceless bricks? With DPS limits to those structures that could be reached by couple dozen cheap, agile and fast cruisers? Why would someone even want to own a super-capital?

And i'm not even talking about WH residents that currently use dreads for ratting, they will really "enjoy" all this.

Please consider that you are drawing a lot of assumptions based on the principles we've laid out at Vegas without knowing any of the hard numbers. This may the unavoidable consequence of revealing the basic principles of a design before the specifics, but that is hopefully offset by the amount of valuable discussion on the core principles and mechanics that is now taking place.

Just remember, a sizeable process of planning, feedback and iteration is still to come so please be patient and stay tuned, we really appreciate your assistance in making the capital rework as awesome as we can for all involved Smile


So explain how taking away what was left of the carriers usefulness and replacing it with new drone buff helps me look at my skill book cost and time invested in training leave the billions wasted out all together and I am still upset.
So after a long day of work I log in to play a game. I want to move my carrier and some ships to the next region where my mates are moving to. I also want to keep fatigue down in case I need to join a defense fleet and use a jump bridge. So I check Dolan and have four carrier jumps. Spend 50 minutes a jump in a station or cloaked in space "playing a game" . So I just wasted a evening playing due to fatigue. Missed a fleet because I am cloaked in space for fifty minutes with time to think about why I wasted almost 500 days of skills and billions of risk for what looks like it will be even less useful in the spring. Now tell me with a straight face you are making this game more enjoyable to play? Really

Carriers can take gates now.

I said I wanted to use the carrier and ships not watch them burn ;)
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#170 - 2015-10-25 16:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: loquacious7
The new DD weapons will work great with Tidi/nobrackets/lowsettings we will totally see them coming :p
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2015-10-25 16:39:33 UTC
loquacious7 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Carriers can take gates now.

I said I wanted to use the carrier and ships not watch them burn ;)

Do they not have scouts and webs where you live?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#172 - 2015-10-25 16:42:40 UTC
Playing since 2008 people frequently ask me why I don't fly capital ships. I'm one of those pilots that CCP curses at every turn because I enjoy flying solo or perhaps with just one person or a very small group. This type of gameplay has always been lacking due to handicaps in the gameplay mechanics. Changes here continue the move in this direction and confirm in my mind that CCP wants to discourage small gang and solo pvp players.

Some of the changes such as the area of effect weapons look outstanding and will surely enhance medium and particularly large fleet battles but I definitely have no personal desire to shoot at structures. As for myself I will continue to play the game as I see fit and not move down the deceivingly linear path CCP is attempting to draw up for me. These change confirm that players like myself will not be flying capitals anytime soon.

Instead I will continue in the areas where there is more freedom to use my personal prowess such as dominating markets to acquire vast sums of isk and in this way exercise my will. Some days I wish I could roll back the clock on eve ten years so that I could pvp the way I was meant to without being forced into a box.
The Mach
Phocas Legacy
From Ashes we Rise
#173 - 2015-10-25 16:44:59 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
"New rapid firing anti-sub-capital weapon batteries are specifically designed to fire at sub-capitals. However their damage will be considerably lower than current XL weapon systems (in the 1 to 2k DPS range on a Sieged Dreadnought)"

I assume that these will be replacing the current extra large guns... If so, isn't this is a massive nerf? In what situation would anyone field a dread, worth billions, to kill sub-caps if it only has the fire power of 2-3 battleships?

I'm looking at this from the perspective of a wormholer and it seems as though there will be no use for dreads outside of pos bashing and instead, I'll be forced to fly a carrier if I want to fly caps in a fight.

No, the new XL anti-subcap guns will be a second type of capital gun. The existing XL guns will still be around, but will be focused on anti-cap/structure damage application only.



Can you not evade this question in every post? And just answer it?
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2015-10-25 16:45:15 UTC
Querns wrote:
loquacious7 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Carriers can take gates now.

I said I wanted to use the carrier and ships not watch them burn ;)

Do they not have scouts and webs where you live?

My old "suitcase" carrier did not need them. Was part of my point. Maybe I should gank miners and freighters in high sec to prove my point :)
Soridar Ravencroft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2015-10-25 16:46:15 UTC
I am a bit confused, as during the Vegas presentation, I am sure I heard that Cap Remote Reps can only be used in Triage, but the blog states that they will only be effective in Triage. This means two entirely different things.

Remote Reps should work on capitals in the same way as on sub-caps, where in an unbonused role, they are relatively weak and only have limited usefulness. When you combine the new fall-off changes with the loss of bonuses, remote reps no matter what size or classification, will be of limited usefulness. So removing them as an option not only reduces variation in game play, but defeats the nature of the sandbox.

Before making a knee-jerk anti n+1 reaction, look at how far the current changes for Remote Assistance are going to limit unbonused ships. Then remind yourselves that with many of the new proposed capital changes and additions, clumping capitals together is going to be a tactic of the past. This means that in a fleet fight, even if combat carriers wanted to fit for reps, like today, without the current bonuses, they would have to make a choice. 1) Either be sitting in a relatively close manner, and risk massive penalties, or dmg, via the new AOE mechanics, or 2) sit at near max rep ranges and receive a large penalty to Remote Assistance.

I understand you are thinking, but large groups will just bunch in tighter, meaning n+1 will still be the effect, and this just might happen a time or 2. Until the handful of Titans pop in, hit AOE DDs and even if they didn't kill the entire fleet, they would have put in such a hurting that the stealth bombers just come in and mop up.

So as I have pointed out, with your current new effects, combined with upcoming nerfs and removal of bonuses. The current Pantheon meta for carriers is over, and there is no need to just remove fitting options, when the new mechanics will make them undesirable.

This leads you to ask, "Why then do you want to keep the option?", which would be a valid question. The answer is simple, variation and limited resource options. I use the RR Domi as my example, this style of Dominix fitting, allows a small group to increase it's abilities mildly, but in no way out performs the T2 logistic hulls it is trying to. the point here, is some small groups, being WHers, LS gangs, and even null groups, tend to do a lot of small gang action much more often than any large scale battles. This gives those everyday pilots more function, even if it is at the cost of limited range or effect.

Also this allows for a single capital, which gets tackled, to have a response force show up, and assist it rather than just watch him die as you couldn't find a FAX pilot in time.


Options are a backbone of Eve, even if you wanna do something stupid, like using hybrids on an Amarr BS that is sheild tanked, you can. Doesn't mean it is gonna work the greatest, but that is still your right, in the sandbox.
Garrett Howe
New Eden Shipbuilding
#176 - 2015-10-25 16:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Garrett Howe
The Mach wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
"New rapid firing anti-sub-capital weapon batteries are specifically designed to fire at sub-capitals. However their damage will be considerably lower than current XL weapon systems (in the 1 to 2k DPS range on a Sieged Dreadnought)"

I assume that these will be replacing the current extra large guns... If so, isn't this is a massive nerf? In what situation would anyone field a dread, worth billions, to kill sub-caps if it only has the fire power of 2-3 battleships?

I'm looking at this from the perspective of a wormholer and it seems as though there will be no use for dreads outside of pos bashing and instead, I'll be forced to fly a carrier if I want to fly caps in a fight.

No, the new XL anti-subcap guns will be a second type of capital gun. The existing XL guns will still be around, but will be focused on anti-cap/structure damage application only.



Can you not evade this question in every post? And just answer it?

Wait, what question are you trying to get answered?
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#177 - 2015-10-25 16:49:04 UTC
loquacious7 wrote:
Querns wrote:
loquacious7 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Carriers can take gates now.

I said I wanted to use the carrier and ships not watch them burn ;)

Do they not have scouts and webs where you live?

My old "suitcase" carrier did not need them. Was part of my point. Maybe I should gank miners and freighters in high sec to prove my point :)

Wait you point is that you can't travel around from one end of new eden to the other risk free?

If so then working as intended.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Kej Lacitis
Space Mechanics
#178 - 2015-10-25 16:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kej Lacitis
Hello.
What about damage control on fighters squadrons?
Today, I can see shield, armor and hull on each fighter, and I can call it back or use remote shield/armor/hull repair on it.
In case of squadrons, can I see percents of health of each fighters, or not? If not, on what basis I can make a decision on the return of the squadron? Can I use remote shield/armor/hull repair on it?
And what about Drone Damage Amplifier, Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Drone Durability Enhancer and other modules and rigs?

PS: Sorry for Google Translate :)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#179 - 2015-10-25 16:51:29 UTC
I don't like the sound of this ewar resistance. have you thought about doing something with the stacking penalty, to make it so you can still damp a capital down to -x%, but it just takes, say, 12 damps rather than 3? a resistance to ECM means you can still just bring a lot of ECM. a resistance to other stuff means you're really cutting how much they can be affected. I don't want to be on field in a damp ship and be reducing a dreadnought's targeting range from 250km to 150km with 4 bonused damps when it's brawling at 40km.

making capital ships tacklable is nice, but have you given any thought to lowsec in particular, where we can't just drop a load of bubbles? HICs are effectively garbage because they can't receive remote reps. I think if it's ok for everything else in the game to receive remote reps, HICs also should be able to. some kind of lowsec capital tackle bubble would be nice though.

and regarding capital warp strength, will this be a separate thing from jump drive? or will it be that you can jump if you can warp?

any changes to capital travel? currently you can move the biggest ships in the game by having 1 noob cyno alt, and people can't really do much about it. how about some kind of interruptable activation on jump drives, and a timer before a cyno becomes jumpable?
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#180 - 2015-10-25 16:53:52 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Stuff


You totally need to watch the Capital video. fighters work totally different now. You position them on the system map where you want them and give them orders. If you ever played the Homeworld Series of Games it works like moving squadrons around in it. Set where you want them to move issue orders. They do move around the map again and now have a multitude of commands you can issue them

We now have Squadrons insteads of individual fighters. With a Max of 5 Squadrons that can hold up to a max of 12 fighters
There will be 3 Types of Fighter Squadrons
Light ( Anti-subcaps)
Heavy (Anti-Capital)
Support (ewar, nueting, scramming etc)

Squadron will have certain abilities depending on the type which could include a max of 3
Anti-capital torpedos
Anti-fighter missile swarm
Bombs
Evasive maneuvers
EWAR - scramming, neuting
Microwarp
Microjump
Special Weapons

Carriers and above will no longer use Drones and fighter bombers get Wrapped into the new types of Heavy Fighters. The Range limitation is gone because now you have system control and move the drones over the system. Much akin to an actual carrier. You have no place on the battlefield, You launch fighters from safety and send them into the Combat Zone. Using an all new control scheme Akin to Homeworld.


I totally have and i get their moving towards a homeworld direction, but I'd like more specifics than what the video provides.

More over, they can't bring basck skynet (not that I'm complaining if they do, long liv skynet) and then complain about it later on in the sense of "risk free off grid pvp is bad mmmkay"


I think more of the Skynet issue was OTHER players having the control of the fighters. Here you will actually have to shift cameras around to your groups to see whats going on. With Skynet you assigned them to your Alt or another player and he could relay whats on grid and whats happening.

In this new situation if you have multiple combat situations occuring in your area (Node defense perhaps, maybe multiple spawned and you have fighter squadrons deployed around the nodes) you will be more micromanaging your squadrons or risk losing them quickly. You also have no control over what they target. Before if fighters were assigned to me, I engaged with my Ceptor they attacked that target. NOW if that squadron is assigned to an area, you just have the ability enabled for what you want it to do. You have no way of saying.. at least so far that I have seen... "Focus Fire" Or "Priority x ship", in this case.. Skynet is literally Skynet. It's all AI once deployed. Thats a major difference between our skynet and the upcoming.