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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
Dare Devel
Perkone
Caldari State
#1581 - 2012-01-05 22:46:59 UTC
Currently in Sisi 40% range bonus and 1.4 is falloff multiplier.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#1582 - 2012-01-05 23:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
Instead of just buffing T2 ammo I would say that blasters really need a bit more range, for all ammo types. I am personally not happy to buff T2 ammo more, the introduction of high damage ammo at long range was what initially broke balancing between weapon types.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1583 - 2012-01-05 23:26:57 UTC
Dare Devel wrote:
Currently in Sisi 40% range bonus and 1.4 is falloff multiplier.



Ok cool, thanks for the clarification. I have to say though, while this is better, I still think that slightly misses the mark. I know I crunched the numbers in the past and I remember thinking to myself several times, 50% / 50% would be needed. I'll crunch the numbers again just to make sure.

Thanks again for the clarification, Dare. Happy New Year! Big smile
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1584 - 2012-01-06 06:32:11 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Current 25% is applied to optimal and falloff. Why wouldn't 40% increase apply to both as well?

It'll push Heavy Nuetron blaster opt+fallof range (with three TE2's) past the magic 24 km warp disruptor II range. That's all I ask for.




the range mod is applyed to null not void
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1585 - 2012-01-06 11:28:51 UTC
an extra couple of km on blasters using null ... lol ... WHOOPTY DOO ... not going to change anything ...and pretty pathetic attempt at a fix. if this is the best they can do ... we might as well just sell our gallente characters on the bazaar before a Gallente skills penalty is added to character pricing because all their skills are worthless in comparison to winmatar. i for one do not want to fly minmatar ships all the time. or better yet we can just stop playing this game and find one that actually has a working pvp system. i hear star wars online already has 100x the customers of eve in a few months although i have never tried it ... i bet they actually got more then 1 guy working on balancing as well lol.

its pretty sad that this game has been running for 10 years now and CCP still cant figure out how to balance their game. guess it goes to show how much they appreciate their customers. i am sure they are working on other more important things like justifying selling more nex store items. i have a feeling the exodus created during incarna is going to continue in the next year or 2 until this game is officially dead ... cause the developers are failing so bad at their jobs.

nice try CCP tallest .. but until i see better results .. you have failed at your task. and eve online is losing customers monthly. but who knows maybe you can get a job at star wars as an assistant when this game is over .. i give it 1-2 years max.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1586 - 2012-01-06 14:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikuno
Well with the null change I make the ranges for the medium and large blasters to be as follows (appropriate skills at lv5 for range modifiers) without and with a single TE (to the nearest whole km);

Heavy electron 9 12
Heavy ion 12 15
Heavy neutron 15 19

Electron cannon 19 23
Ion cannon 25 30
Neutron cannon 30 37

So close to removing the biggest bug bear - namely being kited at scram range without any reasonable chance to do much to escape. It'd be a shame if TE's became the new mwd and were a compulsory fit for every ship - pretty soon we might as well have it all hardwired into the ship if that becomes a trend :) .I have no issues at all with large blasters set at this level personally, but think the mediums could do with an extra 1.5km as their base, just to get everything into the scram range limit for being able to respond in some way. I guess the guns themselves would require that tweak, rather than the ammo. Alternatively the 50% boost would work, but then that might be too much for the large guns.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1587 - 2012-01-06 15:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
recalculate plz.

optimal from 1.25 => 1.40
falloff from 1.25 => 1.40


For Example base of heavy neutron blaster with 0 % bonus ammo

9 km optimal
13 km falloff

with the NEW null ammo it gets to

12.6 km optimal
18.2 km falloff

with 1 TE
14 km optimal
22.4 km falloff
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1588 - 2012-01-06 15:50:21 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:
an extra couple of km on blasters using null ... lol ... WHOOPTY DOO ... not going to change anything ...and pretty pathetic attempt at a fix. if this is the best they can do ... we might as well just sell our gallente characters on the bazaar before a Gallente skills penalty is added to character pricing because all their skills are worthless in comparison to winmatar. i for one do not want to fly minmatar ships all the time. or better yet we can just stop playing this game and find one that actually has a working pvp system. i hear star wars online already has 100x the customers of eve in a few months although i have never tried it ... i bet they actually got more then 1 guy working on balancing as well lol.

its pretty sad that this game has been running for 10 years now and CCP still cant figure out how to balance their game. guess it goes to show how much they appreciate their customers. i am sure they are working on other more important things like justifying selling more nex store items. i have a feeling the exodus created during incarna is going to continue in the next year or 2 until this game is officially dead ... cause the developers are failing so bad at their jobs.

nice try CCP tallest .. but until i see better results .. you have failed at your task. and eve online is losing customers monthly. but who knows maybe you can get a job at star wars as an assistant when this game is over .. i give it 1-2 years max.
I think you're being a bit harsh. I've been passionate about getting hybrids buffed for years, and only became vocal about it for the past two months (basically as soon as I heard it was being addressed on Sisi). I mean, think about that, two months time and they HAVE implemented something. My only concern was that they would leave it as is, despite numerous forum posts stating the work was incomplete. Admittedly, I was also about to throw in the towel, thinking hybrids got a half-assed makeover which didn't change a thing. Hearing about Null changes on SiSi, though, it's changed my attitude a lot.

That being said, I am totally with you: more needs to be done. If you ask me, Gallente ships still need survivability. If the Null changes go live, this puts Gallente ships somewhat on par with Amarr. I still think Amarr get the edge in better effective range in scorch, instant ammo swap, and absolutely staggering armor tanks. Caldari, while in some cases they seemingly need love, will have ECM, the best-bang-for-your-buck Drake, the Tengu, and I'd bet any amount of money the Naga becomes popular in the next six months. Minmatar will remain undisputed kings of small scale pvp because other races, pound for pound, have yet to receive tools matching or beating the trio of capless guns, fastest speed, and alpha.

To summarize: while this thread is about buffing hybrids, I think it is equally important to recognize the pitiful rarity of Gallente ships in pvp, which also happens to mirror a likewise lacking presense of hybrids in pvp. In many respects, they are one and the same.

To reiterate this point for anyone at CCP who might be reading: You must also increase the defensive abilities of the hybrid delivery platform, a.k.a. ships with hybrid bonuses, in SOME way, if you are serious about making hybrids a popular and viable choice in pvp.

Anyhow, Gallente still need survivability just as much as hybrids need something to make their "on-paper" stats effective. While new Null buffs open a small window to fend off skirmishers, it still does nothing preventing Minmatar ships from overwhelmingly dictating the course of small engagements. In other words, the Null buffs only result in a skirmisher POSSIBLY having to consider retreating when fighting a blaster boat. Hybrid ships need to bring something to the table EVERYTIME they are picked, or no one is going to want to use them. Ideally this would be defensive in nature as Gallente is the only race which really has no passive defensive capability:

Minmatar: nano/speed, capless guns
Amarr: best ehp in the game, fleet-friendly lasers
Caldari: best shields in the game, capless missiles (this is not exactly great, but it does propel the Drake to the most popular ship in the game, and the Tengu to the most popular ship in its class)
Gallente: NOTHING

CCP, you still need to fill the above Gallente gap, or the Null buffs are in vain. :(
Nikuno wrote:
It'd be a shame if TE's became the new mwd and were a compulsory fit for every ship - pretty soon we might as well have it all hardwired into the ship if that becomes a trend :) ... Alternatively the 50% boost would work, but then that might be too much for the large guns.
Yea, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed disparities between hybrid turrets as ship size increased. The weakest of the weak hybrids are found on the medium-sized ships, no doubt. And yes, TE's are a little too powerful/fotm. Strange that TEs actually provide better bonuses than the TC, which has more fitting requirements, requires a script, and requires activation.... Personally, I equate them to pre-nerf multispectrals, but whatever.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1589 - 2012-01-06 16:43:56 UTC
Incidentally, shouldn't this thread be sticky again if hybrids are still being reworked on SiSi?
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1590 - 2012-01-06 16:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Archare
Magosian wrote:
Incidentally, shouldn't this thread be sticky again if hybrids are still being reworked on SiSi?


Well considering the changes haven't even been mentioned by a certain person of above average....

height.


Still I welcome more work on my preferred method of destruction. I see the null buff as a normalization of the general range increase relative to scorch and barrage. I think like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg, hybrids still feel incomplete because only half of the problem has been worked on. Overall the changes have been good but more is desired because the ships that mount them. Overall I hope more changes/tweaking/rebalancing for hybrids and the platforms that carry them come soon!
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1591 - 2012-01-06 19:59:38 UTC
I agree with Mogosian about some of us here being a bit too rude (includinf meh but schhhss) about this ammo stuff, let's try to at least think some resolutions are being taken and that our feedback has some repercussions so let's try to do it fair and well for everyone please.


I haven't tested yet the new hybrid numbers on SISI I admit, I'll do it ASAP tomorrow before I even think about log on TQ, it's my priority. Has weird has that may seem my full priority is to stop using Minamatar stuff and use the one I've chose at he first place and at other ocasions than gate camps.
I'm not about having gallente stuff all over Minmatar, I want fücking balance and use my favourite ships in the same scenarios with same efficiency, witch doesn't mean same tactics, so nerds gtfo with your shït comments.

The day where with a single TE, no MFS -since dmg mods lows you have to choose between tank or gank right nerds?
ill be able to hit crap at disruptor distance and profit from my fücking lvl5 gunnery support skills I'll be happy for once.
Man, I had to train AWU at 4 to even fit correctly my Navy mega without many PG/CAP/CPU issues, train fücking gunnery support skills at 5 to be able to hit crap decently (doesn't mean with decent dps) at stupid distances.

Then I've sarted using Minmatar battleships, had far too much cpu left, couldn't fit enought T2 crap to eat all the PG, couldn't even be caped out by two or 3 Canes neuting me, enough shield natural regen to alpha crap at decent distances and most important, I could only imagine what was the feeling about put 1500dmg shots with 720hotwizer arty when with my 250mm RG i can hardly put 150dmg in optimal ange and perfect trajectory.

Do I think hybrids and blaster/rail platforms will be good tomorrow? -absolutely not.

Do I think We're on the verge of some changing and see those start having some use, or better, start seeing full gallente fleets doing what they're supposed to do? - maybe, but it's certainly not for tomorrow

Imho, we'll not have something competent and overall a viable choice before another 6months if Tallest ver has the time and will to do so, witch makes me think and say that hybrids rebalance will not evolve much more than those crapy numbers we see for a few months now, Top 20 will not move before a few years again.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#1592 - 2012-01-06 20:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan North
I agree that for weapons with the highest fitting requirements, while wasting cap per shot, and unable to select damage types, the fact that autocannons have so many advantages is plain wrong. The solution? Increase autocannon fitting requirements and lower hybrids. You barely even have to touch the damage f you allow for more fitting options.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1593 - 2012-01-06 22:22:22 UTC
Magosian wrote:
Fade Azura wrote:
an extra couple of km on blasters using null ... lol ... WHOOPTY DOO ... not going to change anything ...and pretty pathetic attempt at a fix. if this is the best they can do ... we might as well just sell our gallente characters on the bazaar before a Gallente skills penalty is added to character pricing because all their skills are worthless in comparison to winmatar. i for one do not want to fly minmatar ships all the time. or better yet we can just stop playing this game and find one that actually has a working pvp system. i hear star wars online already has 100x the customers of eve in a few months although i have never tried it ... i bet they actually got more then 1 guy working on balancing as well lol.

its pretty sad that this game has been running for 10 years now and CCP still cant figure out how to balance their game. guess it goes to show how much they appreciate their customers. i am sure they are working on other more important things like justifying selling more nex store items. i have a feeling the exodus created during incarna is going to continue in the next year or 2 until this game is officially dead ... cause the developers are failing so bad at their jobs.

nice try CCP tallest .. but until i see better results .. you have failed at your task. and eve online is losing customers monthly. but who knows maybe you can get a job at star wars as an assistant when this game is over .. i give it 1-2 years max.
I think you're being a bit harsh. I've been passionate about getting hybrids buffed for years, and only became vocal about it for the past two months (basically as soon as I heard it was being addressed on Sisi). I mean, think about that, two months time and they HAVE implemented something. My only concern was that they would leave it as is, despite numerous forum posts stating the work was incomplete. Admittedly, I was also about to throw in the towel, thinking hybrids got a half-assed makeover which didn't change a thing. Hearing about Null changes on SiSi, though, it's changed my attitude a lot.

That being said, I am totally with you: more needs to be done. If you ask me, Gallente ships still need survivability. If the Null changes go live, this puts Gallente ships somewhat on par with Amarr. I still think Amarr get the edge in better effective range in scorch, instant ammo swap, and absolutely staggering armor tanks. Caldari, while in some cases they seemingly need love, will have ECM, the best-bang-for-your-buck Drake, the Tengu, and I'd bet any amount of money the Naga becomes popular in the next six months. Minmatar will remain undisputed kings of small scale pvp because other races, pound for pound, have yet to receive tools matching or beating the trio of capless guns, fastest speed, and alpha.

To summarize: while this thread is about buffing hybrids, I think it is equally important to recognize the pitiful rarity of Gallente ships in pvp, which also happens to mirror a likewise lacking presense of hybrids in pvp. In many respects, they are one and the same.

To reiterate this point for anyone at CCP who might be reading: You must also increase the defensive abilities of the hybrid delivery platform, a.k.a. ships with hybrid bonuses, in SOME way, if you are serious about making hybrids a popular and viable choice in pvp.

Anyhow, Gallente still need survivability just as much as hybrids need something to make their "on-paper" stats effective. While new Null buffs open a small window to fend off skirmishers, it still does nothing preventing Minmatar ships from overwhelmingly dictating the course of small engagements. In other words, the Null buffs only result in a skirmisher POSSIBLY having to consider retreating when fighting a blaster boat. Hybrid ships need to bring something to the table EVERYTIME they are picked, or no one is going to want to use them. Ideally this would be defensive in nature as Gallente is the only race which really has no passive defensive capability:

Minmatar: nano/speed, capless guns
Amarr: best ehp in the game, fleet-friendly lasers
Caldari: best shields in the game, capless missiles (this is not exactly great, but it does propel the Drake to the most popular ship in the game, and the Tengu to the most popular ship in its class)
Gallente: NOTHING

CCP, you still need to fill the above Gallente gap, or the Null buffs are in vain. :(
Nikuno wrote:
It'd be a shame if TE's became the new mwd and were a compulsory fit for every ship - pretty soon we might as well have it all hardwired into the ship if that becomes a trend :) ... Alternatively the 50% boost would work, but then that might be too much for the large guns.
Yea, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed disparities between hybrid turrets as ship size increased. The weakest of the weak hybrids are found on the medium-sized ships, no doubt. And yes, TE's are a little too powerful/fotm. Strange that TEs actually provide better bonuses than the TC, which has more fitting requirements, requires a script, and requires activation.... Personally, I equate them to pre-nerf multispectrals, but whatever.


yes i realize i am being a bit harsh but sometimes it is needed to let someone know they are doing a bad job ... i ran a construction company for many years and if i got someone who is messing up constantly or doing half ass jobs on their work and cant get it together eventually i just tell them do your damn job correclty or i am going to fire you ... and after years of hybrids having no presence in pvp and sucking terribly compared to the other races its pretty much at that point ... and i think they realize that or they wouldnt be doing what they are doing now. but honestly all these changes are half-assed jobs IMO blasters will remain niche and rails suck. nothing changed
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1594 - 2012-01-06 22:40:09 UTC
i actually would love to see some more buffs to rails to actually make them a competitve weapon system ... i mean CMON eletromagnetic railguns firing ANTIMATTER rounds is the worst long range weapon system? and some crap archaic artillery that i guess still uses gunpowder in space(lol) because it doesnt use cap is easily outperforming a much more modern and space-type weapon ... you cant even roleplay that lol.

unless blasters are tottaly reworked they will always remain a small gang niche .. and i mean SMALL GANG .. they will fail terribly even on medium sized fleet engagements.

which leaves gallente only hope of getting back in the fleet fights with railguns ... which are being ignored now apparently they are just fine. even if you copied autocannons and arties properties and gave it to blasters and rails they would still be slower use cap and not be able to select ammo type .... total crap.

nothing will change from what ive seen ... which makes gallente still the worst overall PVP and PVE race by a long shot even after these buffs which were very minor compared to the projectile buff which put minmatar FAR above any other races.

FAIL -1 ccp
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1595 - 2012-01-06 22:56:37 UTC
it is time to admit that projectiles are whats overpowered and in need of the big ole nerf bat if you cant get hybrids to par with your changes. whoever did the projectile buff did such a terrible job its pathetic and made the game far more unbalanced. right now minmatar got the best of everything and its not even close .... they are fastest(by alot) got the best guns(by far)at short and longe range and the ability to dictate range in any fight against any other race 90% of the time. no wonder everyone is flying them. i used to think the drake was a bit OP but now its the only thing holding back minmatar from dominating everyone everywhere.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1596 - 2012-01-06 23:28:01 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:
it is time to admit that projectiles are whats overpowered and in need of the big ole nerf bat if you cant get hybrids to par with your changes. whoever did the projectile buff did such a terrible job its pathetic and made the game far more unbalanced. right now minmatar got the best of everything and its not even close .... they are fastest(by alot) got the best guns(by far)at short and longe range and the ability to dictate range in any fight against any other race 90% of the time. no wonder everyone is flying them. i used to think the drake was a bit OP but now its the only thing holding back minmatar from dominating everyone everywhere.


Despite our different levels of passion on the matter, you thoughts are sound. I do hope they get this right, not to SHIFT the balance of power, but to:

-give veteran players more options to exercise ALL of their skills, in a more diverse manner
-give newer players the true avenue to evolve themselves by not allowing them to regret their skill and race choices
-bring balance to the economy, which currently [and naturally] favors effective ship and weapon systems over the crap ones

It is inexcusable for EVE, a game fundamentally-based on player versus player, to allow a race's line of ships and weapons to be immeasurably inferior when compared to the others.

My only disagreement would be to nerf projectiles. I think it would be better to get everything up to their effectiveness rather than to take a step backwards. There was a time when projectiles weren't so hot, and for [mostly] the same reasons hybrids are not so hot today.

I'll do my best to be hopeful now that i see Null is getting reworked, but again, more is needed!
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
Siberian Squads
#1597 - 2012-01-06 23:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
At this point my biggest hope is in CCP Tallest being calm at all those rants produced by people with very limited PvP experience (if any at all). Either that or they are just ashamed to post with their mains. Either way, it's better to discard these pathetic claims.

Railguns are more than fine now.
Blasters will most likely become fine after the lattest iteration on Null.

It's just the right time to address other issues - like passive overtanking, rigs, shield extenders with no mobility penalties and so on.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1598 - 2012-01-07 00:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
How to discredit yourself after posting with your main?

Fon Revedhort wrote:
Railguns are more than fine now.
Blasters will most likely become fine after the lattest iteration on Null.

It's just the right time to address other issues - like passive overtanking, rigs, shield extenders with no mobility penalties and so on.



Blasters got some love with that crappy long range ammo change
-now you can at least hit crap at over 30km at BS size with a single TE and this is really important, they have to choose to either seriously engage or both have now the ability to gtfo since one can't use any more his distance advantage to keep you disrupted knowing you couldn't hit and elephant at that distance (25/30km)

The tracking/falloff/cap penalties should be at same level with hail/multi has barrage/scorch or whatever
Rails ammo still in need of a very much big dps boost at least for long range ammo, I'm still preferring to pick the Tornado over Rails Talos or Naga everyday, and there's a reason for that: Tornado puts 2 shots on your bones you feel it deep. If it's some Naga or Talos you just know they're there but can wait before you warp out.

Rails themselves are in need of changes at med and large size. 625mm for BS and 375mm for meds would be quite nice because it's cool the 12% less here and the 30% less there but the fact is that they're still crap.
I'll still pick the 720mm T2 hotwizer Cane over 250mm RG Diemost, one is JUST a battlecruiser, the other is JUST THE HAC of gallente lineup.

Why compare both? - well zealot is much better than any amarr BC withc is good, a specialised ship for dps should be the best at it, either close or long range, zealot is the good example.

720 Vaga is crap but 720 Munin is great
Cerberus is little special, crappy tank but for sure a very good dmg dealer no matter the distance.

Problem with gallente HAC is that you either use Blaster Diesmost or Drones Ishtar because rails are plain crap and on Diemost you can see it how bad they are that you could give those 50% more dps they'd still be subpar
Monica Sharezan
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1599 - 2012-01-07 03:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Monica Sharezan
Fon Revedhort wrote:


Railguns are more than fine now.



How much you wanna bet there not a single railgun in the top 20 turrets making kills at the end of this month?(except 425 mb at the bottom everytime) but yes they are fine i agree .....

fine as long as you dont equip them on your ship! Lol
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1600 - 2012-01-07 04:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Fade Azura
Fon Revedhort wrote:
At this point my biggest hope is in CCP Tallest being calm at all those rants produced by people with very limited PvP experience (if any at all). Either that or they are just ashamed to post with their mains. Either way, it's better to discard these pathetic claims.

Railguns are more than fine now.
Blasters will most likely become fine after the lattest iteration on Null.

It's just the right time to address other issues - like passive overtanking, rigs, shield extenders with no mobility penalties and so on.


ohh please show us your vast experience with railguns Mr. Wizard .... i looked at your killboard and you have not got a kill with a railgun in over 16 MONTHS and that was with a nighthawk? wtf probably an error i doubt you have any experience with rails.... and in that time guess what you have been using 99% of the time? projectiles and heavy missiles and a few token blasters kills .... lol

STFU and GTFO you dont know anything about railguns except you never have seen them in pvp in about 2 years and its obvious that you just want to retain your FOTM status by spewing propaganda like a little punk. probably becuase you know without flying your fotm ships you arent really that good.

if you look at my killboard you will see that i actually use rails of all sizes and in actual recent history all t2 guns and my railgun skills are 100% maxed .... i have an 9.00 standing with all the diffrent faction navies all in a sentry/rail domi and have more experience using rails in pvp and pve then you ever will. i have tried several times to use rails in pvp but their alpha is way to weak and dps doesnt overcome arties until like an hour of shooting at something by the time the rails dps starts working the fight is already over and doesnt mean jack.. and the only time they do well is at pos bashes thats it.

i always use a sentry boat+rails usually to take down a pos cause that is the only situation they are good at. these are rail setups but sentries like to get on the KM much more.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11931167

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10672750

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9400676

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9173600

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9797238

i use my rails now only during stuff like this and i am sure 90% of railguns KM's are at pos bashes an thats it.

i never claim to be some master of pvp .. far from it ..i quite often play after i have had a drink or 2 and mess up alot sometimes. i only play here and there when i got the time and just an average joe. but i know intimatly how railguns work far better then you ever will and as good as anyone can and actually use them in combat in the small niche they have(otherwise my maxxed skills on them are wasted). so please take your propaganda and stick it where the sun dont shine and thx.

opps last pos KM was a sentry gila in a c1 i think or something like that lolz

and also if rails are fine why havent you used them in 16 months if you ever have? ........... thats what i thought