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Dev Blog: Fleet Warp Changes - Coming in August Release

First post
Author
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-06-24 17:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Awkward Pi Duolus
Alexis Nightwish wrote:

We have different definitions of "engagement" then. To me, "engagement" means something that is fun, draws my interest, engages me. Your definition seems to be something that makes players do something, even if it's as mundane, uninteresting, and tedious as "wait for FC to tell me to click button" which coincidentally sounds a LOT like what null blob F1 warfare is.


Initiating warp by yourself to the target you intend to kill is not fun and interesting? Are you then entitled for someone to bring the reds to your doorstep so you just undock and pew? The sense of entitlement.. God..
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#42 - 2015-06-24 17:32:30 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:


To fix this problem I suggest a second change to go along with the fleetwarp nerf. Make Covops able to run a prop mod while cloaked, but make their decloak radius expand by the same percentage (or even more) as their speed is boosted. This would enable FCs to use scouts to get ahead of fleets that didn't change direction occasionally, make wrecks and debris on the battlefield meaningful, and generally make somebody who really understood how to fly their ship in space worth their weight in gold. Instead of "align to thing ---> call targets ---> see hostiles coming, laugh, punch warp" FCs would have to be constantly asking themselves "is anyone sneaking up on me right now?"


This is a nice idea for Covert ops ships, making the decloak range 3k with ab on and 4k with MWD on would work quite nicely.
It would give real flexibility to the scouting role. However, On anything other than a covert ops, the bonus would have the potential to be "unfortunate".......

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2015-06-24 17:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrink Collie
Reagalan wrote:
Stuff about T3s owning all other doctrines thus making any changes worthless


Or they could... you know, finally get about to nerfing T3s. If you are against changes or various fleet tactics because a class of ship murder zones all other tactics, perhaps it is broken and needs a fix. They are long overdue for that and we all can agree they need significant adjustments.

But yeah, as far as fleet warps go, I don't see why we couldn't just scale back the time it takes to get scan results of the enemy fleet (30 to 40 seconds even) instead of doing silly things like breaking fleet warp. I'll be ok with the changes coming up if they go through as planned, but I don't see why we need to go down this road when just adjusting scan result times would be so much less complicated, easier to explain, and I would expect more favorable to the general player base. Smile
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#44 - 2015-06-24 17:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Encouraging individual participation:
Quote:
Drone assign was another example of this type of proxy gameplay that we have reduced.


Oh so it wasn't because slowcats could have perfect alpha to blow up dreads with the press of one button? Lol

Quote:
fleet warps will still be possible but will require greater participation by fleet members, such as getting a scout into position.


Yeah sure I'm gonna put the life of my fleet into the hands of somebody else! xD And this somebody else will have a terrible time because he will die quickly and then its the end of the fleet for him. Awesome.

Besides, this doesn't increase fleet participation at all. Before your input was "Take fleet warp", then "Hit Jump". So you were hitting one button once every warp.

Now you have to wait for the scout to warp, then press a button, then wait for the scout to warp, then press a button. Its the same pace. You are just doing things much more slowly.

Quote:
Increase the time it takes for fleets to close ranges


Quote:
Reduce the ease of performing a bomb run without reducing their potential damage


I'm completely on-board with that, but why didn't you just nerf combat probing and bombing instead??

What about you make the gain MORE FUN instead of MORE BORING for a change? Do you realize you are a GAME developper?

We already have to wait frikin HOURS with the jump changes and now we will have to wait for every single warp that we do in null because we have to warp to perches to avoid bombs and pipebombs and we have to wait for the scout to land before doing anything?

Quote:
We anticipate an increase in cool new doctrines being flown.


Yeah no kidding, more power to kiting ships. Yaaay...... Ugh



Besides, these changes do not even bring alliance bookmarks and/or better reliability of corp bookmarks, like a FIXED syncronization delay for EVERYONE. To avoid situations where half the people have it and half don't... I mean its only a string of xyz coordinates how hard can it be? People send so much character strings to so many different people instantaneously in Jita local, don't tell me this is harder than making a syncronous chat work?




You know what would be cool? If you don't want to buff bookmarks syncronization, let the fleet FC manually dictate XYZ coordinates on a bookmark to a fleet, and give the fleet the ability to initiate a warp to XYZ coordinates. THERE YOU HAVE YOUR INDIVUAL PLAYER PARTICIPATION.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-06-24 17:49:20 UTC
Thanks for broadcasting bookmarks.

But I'm with posters above, your change will create uncatchable fleets / ships ... is this intentional? And if not, why do you think this is acceptable?

I like the idea posted above to give covops the ability to activate a prop mod while cloaked with the price of a heavy decloak radius bloom.

I'm my own NPC alt.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#46 - 2015-06-24 17:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
To quote The Big Lebowski, "You're killing your father, Larry."

Sorry, Larrikin. You are still off the mark. We have tried to tell you any number of things to make Eve a better, more engaging game. 90+ pages of feedback (although admittedly about 43 pages of that was Baltec trolling).

The challenge in Eve needs to come from the opposing players, not making it harder and more tedious to do basic things in game.

Listen to Reagalan, Arrendis, Alexis Nightwish, Altrue, etc. These people actually know a thing or two about playing Eve in the current environment. They are not blinded by contempt for the average Eve player.

We all would love to see changes that make Eve more exciting - less tedious. Changes that make Eve more fun to play - less of a chore. Your changes are not achieving that goal.

It takes a very big man to admit that he is wrong. No one will think less of you if you come up with a better solution than this halfhearted concession, which does not even come close to addressing the heart of the matter.

As I said before, you want to increase participation... What is the difference between fleet warping the fleet to a scout and fleet warping the fleet to a bookmark? How is that anything other than a tedious, nonsensical role? I've already mastered the art of sitting cloaked 200km off a gate to act as a bookmark.

How is your goal better than making fleets a maximum of fifty players? And or just making it so you can only squad warp. Each of those changes requires many more highly engaged players than your proposal. The former drastically changes the makeup and composition of every large fleet - in a positive direction. It automatically makes Logistics less powerful in large fleets, without huge nerfs to them as a ship class.

How do your changes make sniper doctrines, apart from Slippery Petes, more viable?

How is making each fleet operation take longer to move from Point A to Point B make the game more engaging? I already have to budget 3-4 hours for a single strategic operation, which may or may not result in a fight. That doesn't count the time I spent preparing as an FC.

To paraphrase Altrue, "make the game more fun to play." Not more time-consuming. Not more tedious.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#47 - 2015-06-24 17:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
While it is nice that we are finally getting the ability to broadcast stuff we didn't previously have, and this mitigates SOME of the damage these fleet warp changes will do to a huge variety of operations, play styles, and fleets, these changes are still far too drastic, cause much damage, and simply DO NOT ACHIEVE THE STATED GOALS.

The inability to fleet warp to a bookmark does NOT provide ANY additional or new tactical choices or interesting game play options. It destroys many, though.

Broadcast to bookmark is USELESS to an NPSI or other mixed fleet. EDIT: In post below, Larrikin clarified that anyone in fleet will be able to warp to a broadcasted bookmark, regardless of affiliation. I quote the relevant bits of his post below:

CCP Larrikin wrote:

Yes you can "just broadcast the location of the bookmark even if other fleet members don't have it in their bookmark list".

Any member of the fleet will be able to warp to the broadcast, regardless of corporate or alliance membership.

2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.



These changes DO NOT increase fleet member agency or participation or whatever feel-good term you want to use.

These changes simply put EVEN MORE work onto already overworked skirmishers and scouts.

These changes do NOTHING to stop bombing camps, in fact, these changes will encourage even more cloaky sabre bubble camps, more catch and drag bubbles on gates, and even more gate camping, because once everyone in their little gang has the bookmarks, they can be just as effective at bombing as if the FC warped them all.

I'm stunned by the thought that this will somehow bring life back to kiting fleets - are you kidding me? Kiting fleets are EVERYWHERE, they are flavor of the month!

I'm just... ugh... I'm holding back rage and disappointment and an actual fear that the one thing I love to do more than anything else in Eve, which is run NewBro new player roams, is going to be just too much to continue running them. Myself and all of the Redemption Road community will do our best, of course, to adapt, but you are making an already challenging and heavy workload job much more challenging and much more work.

Please, I beg of you, keep fleet warp to bookmark, and instead, make it so there is a penalty for fleet warping, such as fleet lands scattered over a 15-20km range. This actually would provide amazing tactical options and interesting game play choices, while achieving numerous of the stated goals.

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

Free weekly public roams & monthly NewBro new player roams!

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Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#48 - 2015-06-24 17:51:43 UTC
Much better

Tho now your missing the point of why some people use fleet warp, its to make ships land at the same time. You pretty much have the code since you can now broadcast to bookmark, might as well just go all the way.

Quote:
So im just going to bring this back since we are talking about broadcasts now.

Q: CCP, why you do this?
A: We want transfer more responsibility for the success of a fleet from its FC to its members.

CCPs current design goal is to give players more agency in fleets. As many FCs and line members have said, the current proposal does not truly address this and removes semi necessary functionality. Overall a bad game design.


Quote:
So me and a bunch of friends found a possible solution to keeping the main design goal of getting people involved with fleets and a sense of personal agency, while maintaining our current level of fleet ability, AND adding in new ability in the form of sudo fleet formations.

Current fleet warp functions are split into 2 parts.

1
Fleet warps as we know them now become emergency fleet warps. They can only warp to a few permanent objects such as the sun, planets, stations, and gates. This is the "No time to explain we are leaving" option for the fc and keeps that functionality alive while limiting it and allowing game play to form in the chase.

2
The new fleet warp mechanic is a fleet warp broadcast. This broadcast works on anything the current (pre aegis) fleetwarp can. Upon activation, everyone gets a visible broadcast saying the fc is starting a fleet warp. From there each pilot mush click on it and accept the warp at a range they choose. After some number of seconds (ten seems reasonable) the fleetwarp is initiated for everyone who signed on. After that, any fleet member may still warp to the broadcast in the fleet history.


In this way, current functionality is preserved and the design goals are meet, while also adding new functionality. Programing my be required, o dear.

If you agree please quote as these forums seem to bury things really quickly.


combined this with the requested broadcast warp to fleet member and your pretty much all set.
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2015-06-24 17:58:11 UTC
I think you are implementing the wrong solution to your problem. And please, don't call it participation, EVE players are quite smart (or we would be playing WOW). You are trying to address a couple other issues, not participation.

Bomber fleets will still decimate targets. Their cloakiness is what gives them their surprise factor. They will still de-cloak and bomb/torpedo the crap out of anything.

Sniper fleets will still suffer. The FC will combat probe them with his throwaway alt. Warp at range and have his fleet warp to the alt.

You will get meager improvements while hurting a whole host of players that don't play in null sov.

Very disappointed you are going forward with this.

-10 Sad



CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2015-06-24 18:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Larrikin
Jyn Artan wrote:
Question If you have different corps in a fleet how does the bookmark broadcast work?

Can you just broadcast the location of the bookmark even if other fleet members don't have it in their bookmark list?

Yes you can "just broadcast the location of the bookmark even if other fleet members don't have it in their bookmark list".

Quesa wrote:
I think reverting the scan probe time back to ~40 seconds would have fixed a lot.

Instead your using magic to add special cases which not only increases the depth of difficulty for newer players but increases the headache for FCs. Special casing is BAD. If an object is warp-able, it should be warp-able for a fleet.

Combat scanning is in a good place, when you don't already know your targets location. Players who are good at scanning down a ship 'somewhere in system' are valued by corporations, alliances and FC's alike.
Combat scanning is broken very easy & fast when your on-grid with your target.

While increasing the time it takes to scan targets down would have achieved our 2nd (long-range fleets) and 3rd goals (bombing runs), it wouldn't do anything for our 1st goal (player participation), and it would break system-wide combat scanning.

Winter Archipelago wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Along with all existing broadcastable items

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by this? Does this mean that, if we broadcast a location (such as a scanned target), the fleet can warp via the broadcast? Or will this be limited to the aforementioned locations that were already warpable?

Or am I missing the mark entirely?

You can't broadcast a probe result as a Warp-to now, so it won't be broadcastable after the changes.

Midnight Hope wrote:
"Bookmarks (newly created bookmarks will have a delay before being broadcastable)"

How much of a delay will it be?
Will the broadcast allow members without the BM (in other corps) to get the BM and be able to warp?

The delay is unrelated to corporate bookmark propagation delay. We'll tell everyone the delay between creating a bookmark and broadcasting it soon! =)
Any member of the fleet will be able to warp to the broadcast, regardless of corporate or alliance membership.

Minchurra wrote:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to)
2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to)
3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?

1. You can fleet-warp to a fleet member as you can now.
2. You can not fleet-warp to a personal bookmark or probe result. Instead, you can broadcast that bookmark and fleet members can warp themselves. Or a fleet member can warp to the bookmark, then you can fleet-warp to the fleet member.
3. You can't fleet-warp to broadcast bookmarks.

Sakura Nihil wrote:
Any dev comment as to the wisdom of releasing an expansion right in the middle of the Alliance Tournament?

AT XII Rules : Warping within the arena is NOT allowed.

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#51 - 2015-06-24 18:10:12 UTC
Greygal wrote:
While it is nice that we are finally getting the ability to broadcast stuff we didn't previously have, and this mitigates SOME of the damage these fleet warp changes will do to a huge variety of operations, play styles, and fleets, these changes are still far too drastic, cause much damage, and simply DO NOT ACHIEVE THE STATED GOALS.

The inability to fleet warp to a bookmark does NOT provide ANY additional or new tactical choices or interesting game play options. It destroys many, though.

Broadcast to bookmark is USELESS to an NPSI or other mixed fleet.

These changes DO NOT increase fleet member agency or participation or whatever feel-good term you want to use.

These changes simply put EVEN MORE work onto already overworked skirmishers and scouts.

These changes do NOTHING to stop bombing camps, in fact, these changes will encourage even more cloaky sabre bubble camps, more catch and drag bubbles on gates, and even more gate camping, because once everyone in their little gang has the bookmarks, they can be just as effective at bombing as if the FC warped them all.

I'm stunned by the thought that this will somehow bring life back to kiting fleets - are you kidding me? Kiting fleets are EVERYWHERE, they are flavor of the month!

I'm just... ugh... I'm holding back rage and disappointment and an actual fear that the one thing I love to do more than anything else in Eve, which is run NewBro new player roams, is going to be just too much to continue running them. Myself and all of the Redemption Road community will do our best, of course, to adapt, but you are making an already challenging and heavy workload job much more challenging and much more work.

Please, I beg of you, keep fleet warp to bookmark, and instead, make it so there is a penalty for fleet warping, such as fleet lands scattered over a 15-20km range. This actually would provide amazing tactical options and interesting game play choices, while achieving numerous of the stated goals.




You might be a bit to harsh on it GG.

Yes it is still going to be a massive pain for new players roams and npsi groups

They now vaguely achieve the stated goals, if the broadcast works like it sounds, but now it will make moving the fleet far more scattered than before, unless we also get the ability to slow our warps.

Kiting fleets are the fotm but there is a difference between kitting and true sniper fleets. This change doesnt actually give much more to sniper fleets because the way bookmarks are needed for that anyway in combination with range and other variables.

It does effect combat bombing yes, but only as a slow down. Bomber camping and normal camps are both buffed by this.

I cant agree more on the workload part, as a npsi fc and scout I know all to well how draining this all is. Over all I am still fairly opposed to the whole idea and dont think it adds much in terms of its design goals to compensate for its failings.
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#52 - 2015-06-24 18:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Onslaughtor, I'm still reading Larrikin's response above, and sounds like my biggest issue (broadcasting to bookmarks is useless for NPSI) is addressed, will adjust my post accordingly after finishing reading. It's an improvement, but my concerns remain.

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

Free weekly public roams & monthly NewBro new player roams!

Visit Redemption Road or join mailing list REDEMPTION ROAMS for information

Lara Divinity
Pidgeon Cartel
#53 - 2015-06-24 18:24:25 UTC
another stupid ass change quit killing the game
eve is dieing wake the hell up ccp
ur changes aint improving a single damm thing is makin it worse
but thats probably ur goal
Quesa
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-06-24 18:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Quesa
CCP Larrikin

Quesa wrote:
I think reverting the scan probe time back to ~40 seconds would have fixed a lot.

Instead your using magic to add special cases which not only increases the depth of difficulty for newer players but increases the headache for FCs. Special casing is [b wrote:
[/b]BAD. If an object is warp-able, it should be warp-able for a fleet.

Combat scanning is in a good place, when you don't already know your targets location. Players who are good at scanning down a ship 'somewhere in system' are valued by corporations, alliances and FC's alike.
Combat scanning is broken when your on-grid with your target.

While increasing the time it takes to scan targets down would have achieved our 2nd (long-range fleets) and 3rd goals (bombing runs), it wouldn't do anything for our 1st goal (player participation), and it would break system-wide combat scanning.


Combat probing, in the previous iteration, was done without much complaint, aside from the interesting way you had to deploy probes. 40 seconds was ok and allowed for both probing off-grid ships and on-grid ships. Currently, I can have a probe result on just about any comp before the targets are able to control their ship from the warp tunnel, that, to me, is not "in a good place".

Bombing runs are highly effective because you can get to the target fast as they are all balled up after coming out of warp and unable to control their ships to align or re-warp prior to bombers already en route. This change will increase the viability of comps simply by allowing them time to not only align but to get defensive measures up and running before a bomber fleet is in warp to the target. Other improvements could be made to how fast ships enter/leave warp so they don't have to wait as long for control of their ship to return. Modifications to how bombs do damage is another way you could improve survivability of ships like reducing the damage of a bomb as you get further from the epicenter or enacting a system of penetration/resistance depending upon weapon system and hull size that I've personally floated.

On your goal of addressing player participation, I believe that increasing the scan probe times would allow those newer or interceptor pilots to learn to pilot their ships and act as pings/warpins on fleets because there will be times when it's far more efficient to have an interceptor move to a spot 100km behind a target for a warpin. In a way, your change only really gives probers the added benefit (those skilled in a niche path) whereas there will be more calls for those newbie's in smaller, more agile ships to work as warp-in providers. Thus being more useful at lower skill points...which is what I assume you want.
Alexis Nightwish
#55 - 2015-06-24 18:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Combat scanning is broken when your on-grid with your target.
So disabling warping to a probe hit when you're within 500km of it never occurred to you?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Capqu
Half Empty
#56 - 2015-06-24 18:28:55 UTC
i'm concerned when the "improvements" being made to the game involve taking away features and making things more tedious
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2015-06-24 18:31:33 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Combat scanning is broken when your on-grid with your target.
So disabling warping to a probe hit when you're within 500km of it never occurred to you?


I'd be ok with this. Ofcourse enemy fleet could counter by warping just off grid and then warping back in.... but stop bubbles and other counter play can counter-act that. Smile
Cleanse Serce
Les Petits Pedestres
Toilet Paper.
#58 - 2015-06-24 18:35:02 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
The delay is unrelated to corporate bookmark propagation delay. We'll tell everyone the delay between creating a bookmark and broadcasting it soon! =)
Any member of the fleet will be able to warp to the broadcast, regardless of corporate or alliance membership.


Awsome !
That responds to many certain "fears" here i'm sure.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#59 - 2015-06-24 18:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Still an awful way of going about a change. CCP consistently making something simple into something convoluted [not my own words, but I cannot think of anything better]. How am I surprised?

So many other things CCP could do to promote different fleet setups yet they go for something that wannabee game designers dreamt up yesterday. Changes not really thought about that much from those who make them.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2015-06-24 18:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Quick point of order: could you make probe results broadcastable, but on the same delay as bookmarks?

If I am reading this correctly, the behavior will be doable by making bookmarks of your probe results anyways. Allowing a broadcast of probe results on the same delay accomplishes the same desired behavior, but frees probers from having to create a bunch of temporary bookmarks and name them in the heat of battle (or outside of the heat of battle.) It's a Quality of Life thing and nothing else.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.