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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#81 - 2015-06-22 16:24:20 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
More data for the cri-ers - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1

PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. Smile



Source?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5789717#post5789717

Good luck trying to get them to poast the original with numbers, or graphs with any Y axis scales. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Adrien Venportt
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2015-06-22 16:24:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


Whack an Ishtar.


Not even close. Please stop trying.

It has been said a year ago, we will say it again. Limit sentries to a BS hull or remove the sentry bonus from the Isthar itself. Or nerf the tracking of the sentry drones. But noooo, as always you refuse to adress the actual root of the problem and just keep chipping away at the tree. With a blunt axe. And blindfolded. Ever wondered what happened to cruiser and/or battlecruiser sized doctrines in nullsec? Isthars.

Also, I hear Riot is hiring.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#83 - 2015-06-22 16:24:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
  • Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s
    • ugh

    +1 for DDA nerf though
    Masaaq
    Soggy Biscuit.
    #84 - 2015-06-22 16:25:10 UTC
    Indeed these are steps in the right direction; good work. However, as others have already stated, the issue with the Ishtar is the huge damage at such great ranges with incredible application.

    Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar.
    Icemandk
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #85 - 2015-06-22 16:26:41 UTC
    Remove that stupid ship from the game. and lets move on
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #86 - 2015-06-22 16:27:35 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    How to fix the ishtar.

    Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls.

    Ishtar is now fixed.


    Or you can reduce the bandwidth of the Ishtar, dropping down to 100 from 125.

    You then reduce the bandwidth of heavy drones from 25 to 20.

    You then reduce the dronebay of the Ishtar slightly (225 to 250 is about right).

    So it keeps sentry potential but loses 20% of its sentry damage.

    It keeps all of its heavy drone damage.

    It is now relatively on par with the myrmidon, stratios, drone proteus (hahahaha), minus it's bonuses to sentry's

    They took a sledge hammer, swung randomly and hit everything.

    The drone damage amps are a good choice, but they killed the shield Ishtar.

    Was the shield Ishtar the issue?

    Yaay!!!!
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #87 - 2015-06-22 16:28:51 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

    This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


    it's one of the really terrible things about them, more like. having slow, useless vulnerable drones on my vexor/algos with no spares isn't what makes it interesting or good.
    Suitonia
    Order of the Red Kestrel
    #88 - 2015-06-22 16:29:42 UTC
    On the subject of the Tempest boost, It is well warranted, I think it would be interesting to see a larger flat damage bonus and a projection bonus instead, say 10% Large Projectile damage and 10% Large Projectile Falloff/Optimal Range/Tracking instead to give the Tempest a role as a ship which has projection, with slightly less raw DPS output than the Maelstrom, but more Alpha, making it more attractive as a long-range fleet platform, while the Maelstrom retains its strengths as a hardier brawler and more raw firepower at expense of Alpha/Projection. This is a great alternative though.

    I think a lot of people don't appreciate how strong the rate of fire bonus increase is, so I'll spell it out for them here.

    Previously the Tempest had 9.975 Effective Turrets. (6 x 1.25 [Damage] x 1.33 [Rate of Fire])

    25% bonus to rate of Fire is a 33% DPS Increase, because the way you calculate rate of fire bonuses. ( 1 / 0.75 = 1.33)
    37.5% bonus to rate of fire is a 60% DPS increase, (1 / 0.625 = 1.6)

    Therefore the Tempest is going to have 12 Effective Turrets (6x 1.25 [Damage] x 1.6 [Rate of Fire])

    Which is very significant, approx 20%~ DPS increase for the Tempest.

    Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

    Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #89 - 2015-06-22 16:30:03 UTC
    Removing some or all of the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar would be considerably more effective at keeping them in line.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Alexander McKeon
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #90 - 2015-06-22 16:30:07 UTC
    Masaaq wrote:
    Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar.
    Sentries with no special optimal + tracking bonus would be fine on the Ishtar; turn it into an optimal range bonus for heavy drones or something so that they can operate outside of easy smartbomb range; that would keep the Ishtar in possession of a unique, interesting bonus without giving it game-wrecking damage projection.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #91 - 2015-06-22 16:30:48 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol).


    Nasty things would happen if you gave the pest a tracking bonus.
    battle Barviainen
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #92 - 2015-06-22 16:33:25 UTC
    Yeah remove the sentry bonuses from it and let it keep the current slot layout
    Alain Colcer
    Nadire Security Consultants
    Federation Peacekeepers
    #93 - 2015-06-22 16:33:52 UTC
    Maybe DDA I's should be just 10% every goes up from there and you finally add the missing drone hardwirings for 1-2-3-4-5-6% bonuses?
    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #94 - 2015-06-22 16:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    Suitonia wrote:

    Which is very significant, approx 20%~ DPS increase for the Tempest.


    Always liked this spaceship with sails. Smile

    // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

    [Cruisers Online]
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #95 - 2015-06-22 16:35:34 UTC
    battle Barviainen wrote:
    Yeah remove the sentry bonuses from it and let it keep the current slot layout

    If the slot layout is kept the same then people would just start to complain about brawling Ishtars with 5 heavy drones and 4 DDAs instead.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #96 - 2015-06-22 16:35:58 UTC
    Alain Colcer wrote:
    Maybe DDA I's should be just 10% every goes up from there and you finally add the missing drone hardwirings for 1-2-3-4-5-6% bonuses?

    nobody uses DDA I's because the T2 variant just wants Drones to V
    battle Barviainen
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #97 - 2015-06-22 16:37:28 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    battle Barviainen wrote:
    Yeah remove the sentry bonuses from it and let it keep the current slot layout

    If the slot layout is kept the same then people would just start to complain about brawling Ishtars with 5 heavy drones and 4 DDAs instead.


    brawling ishtars are catch able compared to the sentry, it will also make alot of fun in smaller gangs as you'd need to kite them, remeber he pwg nerf will also remove some of the tank it can sport
    Jafit McJafitson
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #98 - 2015-06-22 16:38:11 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Alexander McKeon wrote:
    Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

    For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


    This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


    The only other type of ship that can use a weapon above its size class are Attack Battlecruisers, and these were designed from the ground up to balance that perk by being very fragile and difficult to tank. ABCs also can't pop their battleship guns off their hull and fix themselves up with a nice set of mediums or small guns, they're stuck with the choice they made when fitting the ship, and they have many predators because of this.

    Ishtars however can kite and brawl quite happily while having battleship level DPS, and enough drone capacity to maintain a very flexible engagement profile. This applies somewhat to VNIs too.

    I'm sure its very interesting from an academic viewpoint, that drones are so flexible, but its not very interesting for the players who have been flying and fighting the same dominant ship class for an entire year.
    Tarra Nobilii
    Doomheim
    #99 - 2015-06-22 16:38:31 UTC
    I am concerned about nerfing all drone boats with this change. The proposal, specifically regarding the tempest, gives it massive DPS...when compared to its Amarr counterparts, it is a joke. The Armageddon will get nerfed by DDAs, the Apoc and Abaddon, while tanky, do anemic dps overall.

    The DDA changes are also going to hurt a number of very good ships at present (how balanced they are is up for discussion); such as the Stratios, Nestor, Sin , Amarr recons, etc. While I agree that the ishtar is overly good, nerf to DDA is too broad...when coupled with a Tempest buff, things will be made imbalanced. The Rokh is terrible as a combat ship...is its role to be primarily a smartbombing ship? A cursory look at the killboards indicates that is the overwhelming use of that hull...seems wasteful.
    Stitch Kaneland
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #100 - 2015-06-22 16:39:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
    This gonna be good. Carebear tears incoming for 1-3% nerf to DDA. "But mah isk ticks".

    Rise, while you're adjusting the TFI, think you could add a bit more cargo space? Large ammo is alil bulky for acs and trying to fit more than 2 reloads of cap boosters is difficult.

    Good change on pest though. Didnt ruin it, just gave it more dps.. so now my dual 425 pest will have more dps than a HAC \o/

    More ishtar nerfs are good. Tired of hearing about it. Look forward to BC changes. My sig? Maybe?

    Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

    Make the Muninn great again!