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Do not train to fly battleships

Author
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#261 - 2015-06-12 04:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Frigates: Ill give you that frigs are cheap and its hard to replace them when the only real reason to use one is their cost :P

Destroyers: As shown in the videos linked in this thread, Battleship will and do kill frigates/drones so im sure we dont "absolutely need" Destroyers for this.

Cruisers: They can fulfull a varity of roles as you say, but what roles can only a cruiser do, in order for someone to "absolutely need" Cruisers there would have to be something no other ships can do.

Battlecruisers: Battleships deal more damage with more hardiness to survive. Again Battleships can kill smaller targets with the help of web/tp and this have ben proven in videoes linked in this thread before.

Carriers: bridge some logisitcs cruisers and you have mobile repairs, so their role can be taken by other classes.

Dread: They deal alot of dps while sieged, SC match that dps tho so they can take over without needing to sit still for 5min. They have less tracking than the Battleships you say cant hit smaller ships, and structure bashing is something battleships also do very well (need larger numbers, but without numbers backing you its suicide to drop a dread anyway)

So there is no ship class that is "absolutely needed", why should Battleships have to be any diffrent?

Battleships can, as shown in videos you dismiss as "not what your looking for", kill frigates and they deal the most damage of any subcapital ship. They also have a longer range than smaller ships (not counting BC with large guns), together with more EHP than almost any subcapital (some t2t3 setups get more ehp, but with alot shorter range and less dps)
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#262 - 2015-06-12 04:41:51 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:


Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles

Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates

Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles

Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets

Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals

Dread: Siege

These seem like what CCP intended.


Battleships: Can tank twice as much as the typical BC, and deliver twice as much DPS. They are the largest DPS dealer in the sub-cab arena. Kill most BC with ease. Least amount of ISK per risk in capital engagements, POS warfare, System defense.
Needs to be piloted/fitted by well skilled, experienced pilots. Fit ACCORDING to the engagement. Tank, tracking, small ships, large ships, neut, speed, DPS, range. All can be fit according to the fleet engagement.

All pilots that want to progress past 'cruisers online' should be able to fit a T2, well skilled BS. If a corp or alliance cannot field BS, they cannot effectively evolve to the 'next' levels of EVE.

If you are advising new players to NOT train battleships, it is bad advise. You will get them killed when it comes time to fly one.
And if a whole corp of ill-skilled BS pilots undock, the results will be magnified immensely.
If you haven't been in 20 or more BS fights, you are not qualified to give such advise.


Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2015-06-12 05:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
RavenPaine wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:


Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles

Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates

Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles

Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets

Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals

Dread: Siege

These seem like what CCP intended.


Battleships: Can tank twice as much as the typical BC, and deliver twice as much DPS. They are the largest DPS dealer in the sub-cab arena. Kill most BC with ease. Least amount of ISK per risk in capital engagements, POS warfare, System defense.
Needs to be piloted/fitted by well skilled, experienced pilots. Fit ACCORDING to the engagement. Tank, tracking, small ships, large ships, neut, speed, DPS, range. All can be fit according to the fleet engagement.

All pilots that want to progress past 'cruisers online' should be able to fit a T2, well skilled BS. If a corp or alliance cannot field BS, they cannot effectively evolve to the 'next' levels of EVE.

If you are advising new players to NOT train battleships, it is bad advise. You will get them killed when it comes time to fly one.
And if a whole corp of ill-skilled BS pilots undock, the results will be magnified immensely.
If you haven't been in 20 or more BS fights, you are not qualified to give such advise.



But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.

Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#264 - 2015-06-12 05:58:09 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:


Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles

Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates

Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles

Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets

Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals

Dread: Siege

These seem like what CCP intended.


Battleships: Can tank twice as much as the typical BC, and deliver twice as much DPS. They are the largest DPS dealer in the sub-cab arena. Kill most BC with ease. Least amount of ISK per risk in capital engagements, POS warfare, System defense.
Needs to be piloted/fitted by well skilled, experienced pilots. Fit ACCORDING to the engagement. Tank, tracking, small ships, large ships, neut, speed, DPS, range. All can be fit according to the fleet engagement.

All pilots that want to progress past 'cruisers online' should be able to fit a T2, well skilled BS. If a corp or alliance cannot field BS, they cannot effectively evolve to the 'next' levels of EVE.

If you are advising new players to NOT train battleships, it is bad advise. You will get them killed when it comes time to fly one.
And if a whole corp of ill-skilled BS pilots undock, the results will be magnified immensely.
If you haven't been in 20 or more BS fights, you are not qualified to give such advise.



But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.

Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.


First i have to ask, why do you need 20vs40 for your T3 cruiser gang to win, if battleships are so bad would you not make a better point by using equal numbers or more battleships (if you truly think BS are as crap as you say)

What other 20man gang would win against these 40 T3s? Do you think Cruiser/HAC/T3 would do better against 2x their numbers of T3?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#265 - 2015-06-12 06:12:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Haatakan Reppola wrote:


First i have to ask, why do you need 20vs40 for your T3 cruiser gang to win, if battleships are so bad would you not make a better point by using equal numbers or more battleships (if you truly think BS are as crap as you say)

What other 20man gang would win against these 40 T3s? Do you think Cruiser/HAC/T3 would do better against 2x their numbers of T3?

Are you doubting the battleship can take out two measly T3s before going pop? What if they were T2s instead, would the battleships stand a better chance then? T1s?
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#266 - 2015-06-12 06:14:10 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Frigates: Ill give you that frigs are cheap and its hard to replace them when the only real reason to use one is their cost :P
But then the difference between a good T2 frig (and you know you want it Twisted ) vs a T1 BS can be about the same price wise, especially as you add insurance coverage which the T2 is sort of pointless with. In fact, I rather view the typical T1 BS with T2 components (not counting rigs) as rather disposable.

For a newbie, sure it would be absolutely daunting to loose that barely fit raven, but for someone with enough skill and game exp, what an hour to replace? (with added insurance payout etc). imo it's all you really need for a T1 BS, but for the quick frig fights it's hard to skimp especially facing possibly many larger targets and needing to succeed (to break shields etc.). So his cost argument, doesn't really phase most players that know better. It seems more aimed at discouraging newbies, the thread.

Same applies to the SP cost. You are a vet, likely maxed your cruiser skills as I have. What am I going to do, OP, waste it all on PI? Leet mining skills? Hauling?? I'm a combat pilot/s, I know the worth of having all options at my disposal (apart from caps, no interest there). And quite frankly, I don't stick to the latest doctrine opinion, I've been here long enough to know that is always changing here, a need to adapt, and you are better off just flying what you find to be fun for you. I don't like themepark mentality, it's why the sandbox has been my fav for a couple decades, the options are there for you and all viable in some form.

The videos don't lie, they are just not expedient for scaring newbies as the OP would like. I recommend getting off the soapbox and having an actual discussion with the vets here, they may enlighten you on a thing or two. You might even find a fresh new way to play this... reality.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2015-06-12 06:56:21 UTC
Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#268 - 2015-06-12 07:11:04 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.

Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.



First off, the T3 is most likely triple the cost of the BS. But lets just say it's double the cost. 500 mill vs 250 mil.
40 vs 20 = quadruple the fleet cost. If I just killed 9 or 10 of them, the fight would be even, isk wise.



Can I get 20 BS to insta-pop T3's?
Well yes I can.
If they fly at close range I can tackle them, neut, web, whatever.
At close range...I might kill them faster than I could target them.
If they fly at long range, transversal is better for me, and they can't hard tackle my fleet.
My 20 man BS fleet can field 100 drones and has maybe 60 utility slots, for neuts, damps, TP, etc.
My large weapons can reach out further than their medium weapons. Their range may be my best asset.

Would I want to run into a 40 man T3 fleet? No, but I wouldn't run from it.
As a pilot, would I sacrifice my BS to get T3 kills? Every day, yep I would. Just 1 would be a great trade, but 2 to 10 would be epic fun. Either way, I'm only risking 1 BS for the opportunity.

Random numbers:

Focused fire from 40 T3:
500 DPS, ROF every 4 seconds = 2000 Alpha x 40 = 80,000 Alpha My BS could take 80,000 though with any average tank. Would need to be 2 shotted at minimum.

Focused fire from 20 BS:
1000 DPS. ROF every 6 seconds = 6000 Alpha, x 20 = 120,000 Alpha. T3's be exploding.


Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#269 - 2015-06-12 07:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
RavenPaine wrote:



Circumstantial


Random numbers:

Fiction



Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?
By your own numbers the battleships lose because they fire slower. In addition, they have to target the T3 first. All of that would leave the battleships vulnerable. EVE battles are too complex for this kind of on paper play.
Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#270 - 2015-06-12 07:49:08 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable.

Shocked
Weren't pretty much ALL of those videos showing solo battleships taking on larger numbers of ships?
I know the one with the Armageddon was all about it.
There were others as well.

I know you don't like the videos, but they are quite literally proof that counters many of the statements you made.
To say that they are not relevant to the discussion is simply false.
It's not unmanly to admit to having been in error.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#271 - 2015-06-12 07:56:53 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:



Circumstantial


Random numbers:

Fiction



Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?



We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.

The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.


It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 )
Unless you consider running away as a counter.

My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.

Define "win"
After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops.
Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?


Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#272 - 2015-06-12 07:59:28 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable.

Shocked
Weren't pretty much ALL of those videos showing solo battleships taking on larger numbers of ships?
I know the one with the Armageddon was all about it.
There were others as well.

I know you don't like the videos, but they are quite literally proof that counters many of the statements you made.
To say that they are not relevant to the discussion is simply false.
It's not unmanly to admit to having been in error.

I never said anything about the videos except they weren't relevant to the discussion. The only "statements" I've made are in the OP which I'm sure you haven't read yet. Cool
NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#273 - 2015-06-12 08:03:52 UTC
Videos are a very good evidence on how things works. The only reason you don't like to see the videos as evidences is because you know we can give tons after tons with video evidences that pretty much invalidates your arguments here.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2015-06-12 08:08:44 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
[


We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.

The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.


It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 )
Unless you consider running away as a counter.

My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.

Define "win"
After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops.
Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?



You wouldn't have to be doing math if you would just read the OP. I am happy to read your musings on fleet doctrine, but they have nothing to do with the thread. And yes I have been in EVE long enough to know that you should pick your targets so warping away is indeed a tactic. Matter of fact, it is yet another advantage that smaller ships have over battleships. Unfortunately, it is usually more difficult for a battleship to get way. This mean it will have difficulty dictating the types of engagements they find themselves in.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2015-06-12 08:10:56 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Videos are a very good evidence on how things works. The only reason you don't like to see the videos as evidences is because you know we can give tons after tons with video evidences that pretty much invalidates your arguments here.

Videos are good, but they don't have anything to do with the OP. Go ahead read it!
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#276 - 2015-06-12 08:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Aza Ebanu wrote:

But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.

Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.



stupid comparison really, as many have pointed out already.

Just to make it furtherly useless, i'├Čll add that 20 (and less are needed for the job) arty BS (let's say TFI) shooting into resist hole are gonna volley T3s out of the field.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#277 - 2015-06-12 08:16:06 UTC
guess op didnt watch o7 show...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#278 - 2015-06-12 08:25:53 UTC
Did read OP.
Subsequently read 13 more pages of arguments and evidence to the contrary.
Watched goalposts shuffle around a bit.

As far as risk, as pointed out above a T3 is gonna run you a great deal more than a BS that's T2 fitted. Actually, a well fit HAC/HIC will too generally.

Hitting smaller ships... I routinely attempt to provoke BS pilots into aggressing my assault frigate. Sometimes they do. Someday I hope you also get to experience the joy of having precision cruise missiles that are backed with rigors and a target painter absolutely shred your speed/sig tanked AF. It was an eye opener for me, and I was rocking a full set of mid-grade halos at the time.

I have a strange feeling that the rapid heavy/target painter/rigor combo must feel somewhat similar to cruisers. Battlecruisers will likely have little time to savor the experience. And those are just the missile boats...
I wont go into the living nightmare that drone boats bring to the field.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#279 - 2015-06-12 08:43:08 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:



Circumstantial


Random numbers:

Fiction



Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?



We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.

The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.


It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 )
Unless you consider running away as a counter.

My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.

Define "win"
After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops.
Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?




That is all you'd lose from flying a terror like the Phoon?? or even the Hyperion? Hmm, I seeeeee so that's why low-sec incursion fleets mainly consist of T1 BSs.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2015-06-12 08:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Did read OP.
Subsequently read 13 more pages of arguments and evidence to the contrary.
Watched goalposts shuffle around a bit.

As far as risk, as pointed out above a T3 is gonna run you a great deal more than a BS that's T2 fitted. Actually, a well fit HAC/HIC will too generally.

Hitting smaller ships... I routinely attempt to provoke BS pilots into aggressing my assault frigate. Sometimes they do. Someday I hope you also get to experience the joy of having precision cruise missiles that are backed with rigors and a target painter absolutely shred your speed/sig tanked AF. It was an eye opener for me, and I was rocking a full set of mid-grade halos at the time.

I have a strange feeling that the rapid heavy/target painter/rigor combo must feel somewhat similar to cruisers. Battlecruisers will likely have little time to savor the experience. And those are just the missile boats...
I wont go into the living nightmare that drone boats bring to the field.

What evidence?