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Do not train to fly battleships

Author
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-05-13 02:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Anyone who has ever flown a battleship in the EVE Universe, will understand what I mean when I say they are the most riskiest thing to fly with the least amount of reward. Pilots of battleships are flying a slow moving, inaccurate glass cannon(even when properly T2/faction fit.) Pilots of almost every other combat ship class can survive better than a battleship. As it stands now battleships are an under classed vessel that is surely losing it's place in the game.

The first reason why battleships are worthless is, they have the most trouble hitting targets. Since the game is based on smaller+faster = miss to larger guns, Battleships carrying the largest guns miss everything smaller than it. Now players can manipulate fittings and rigs to make it easier to hit a smaller ships, but no amount of fittings will make a battleship efficient at hitting small targets.

Second, battleships move slow. Some would argue that a larger(mass) ship should move slower, and they are correct. But using this methodology, a ship that is 100x more massive, has only 17x times more armor. Now why would things scale so differently in armor? Because, the game designers want battleships to die to smaller ships. This quote from Evelopedia: "Smaller swarms of ships are able to overwhelm the battleships systems and larger capitol ships with sufficient tracking can be accurate enough to cause quite serious damage, ..." The truth is that, any smaller combat ship can destroy a battleship, and they are designed to be destroyed by larger capital ships too.

Battleships now have the role of PVE combat ships, in PVP they are liabilities. Don't waste your skill points. The thousands of skill points wasted on battleships would be better spent in cruiser or other skills.



EDIT:
Battleships cause this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbHqFgn4SOw
Exotic Matters
Fried Liver Attack
#2 - 2015-05-13 03:59:07 UTC
I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-05-13 04:24:08 UTC
Good day for a good Man.

I still belive in a statement that there are no bad ships but a lot of pilots who can't fly those well.

A gang of frigs could catch and take down a lonely battleship. True.

A gang of battleships could catch and take down a lonely frig. False?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-05-13 04:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Exotic Matters wrote:
I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.


Thank you for sharing your experiences. I wish I had your wisdom before injecting the skill.

btw here are some discussions concerning BC/T2/T3 for lvl 4's :https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=480792
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3419280

sounds like they work well enough.
Iyokus Patrouette
Buccaneers of New Eden
Liquor Legion
#5 - 2015-05-13 05:22:53 UTC
Battleships are very, very, very, very Important in the current Wormhole meta and are a must have train to at least level 1.

(we use them to collapse wormholes)

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-05-13 05:26:24 UTC
Iyokus Patrouette wrote:
Battleships are very, very, very, very Important in the current Wormhole meta and are a must have train to at least level 1.

(we use them to collapse wormholes)

You bring up another interesting point in that they are discriminated against by certain areas of game play.
Thank you for your contribution.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#7 - 2015-05-13 06:07:13 UTC
So, the real question is:
What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?

A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls.
Klaus Tylar
Tylar United Freight
#8 - 2015-05-13 06:17:53 UTC
Battleships can be useful as cheap structure bashing implements, particularly in situations where dreads are either inaccessible or undesirable.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-05-13 06:30:02 UTC
Klaus Tylar wrote:
Battleships can be useful as cheap structure bashing implements, particularly in situations where dreads are either inaccessible or undesirable.


So a battleship is like using a shoe when a hammer is not around? The obvious instrument for bashing structures is the dread.
Klaus Tylar
Tylar United Freight
#10 - 2015-05-13 06:33:27 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Klaus Tylar wrote:
Battleships can be useful as cheap structure bashing implements, particularly in situations where dreads are either inaccessible or undesirable.


So a battleship is like using a shoe when a hammer is not around? The obvious instrument for bashing structures is the dread.


Two key words in my post you seemed to have missed; 'inaccessible or undesirable'. So... Basically, people faffing about with POCOs and POSes in highsec. I'd also like to argue against your analogy and offer a different one- Why use a sword if a dagger will suffice?
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-05-13 06:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Traejun DiSanctis
As it stands, and with few exceptions, battleships are PvE boats. End of story. As the contributions above suggest, Battleship value in PvP is pretty much relegated to structure bashing and perhaps some niche fleets (supercap killing?). But, for L4's, the 2 best ships I can think of are battleships - Machariel and Rattlesnake. That is their most well-suited role, high end PvE. Sure, you can do L4's in a Tengu or a Gila, but I can do it faster in a Mach or 'Snake. Given the PvE is purely a money-making endeavor, efficiency is king. Those BB's will do it more efficiently in almost all respects - the only exception to that being blitzing, at which point you go get a T3 for the speed.

Let's also not forget Incursions - where the Nightmare is king.

That said, I do wish Battleships had a bigger role in the game. Certainly more than the niche role it seems to have. Unfortunately, given the cost of buying/fitting and the immense amount of skill training required to fit them properly, they are unlikely to play a bigger role in PvP at this time. Maybe ever. As for PvE, their place is secure and unlikely to be obsoleted any time soon.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#12 - 2015-05-13 06:45:15 UTC
Exotic Matters wrote:
I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.



When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else.
Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk.

If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one.



Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'.

In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V.
And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly.



Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task.
But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks.
Valkin Mordirc
#13 - 2015-05-13 06:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
There are a lot of uses for Battleships then what you are eluding to,

Yes they do need tweaked, I'll agree to that. BUT they all have very good uses. I'll cover what I know,

Domi's and Geddons make for great POS bashers. The Spider RR tank they can field is more then enough to handle defending gangs and the POS weapons systems.

Any RHML fitted battleship with wreck small cruiser gangs,

Ravens ARE the PVE boats,

Hype's are good DPS ships in small local repped defending fleets.

The Mega is a very good gank ship, a good fleet ship, and overall a very well balanced BS

The 90% web Vindi can easily take out smaller targets.

A Shield Mach is a war machine.

The Bhaal is irreplaceable in Wormhole Defensive fleets, and anti-cap roles.

The Nestor is a mini-carrier and reps just about as much as full blown carrier.

The Rattlesnake can dish out some HEAVY Dps with it's drones.

The Navy Mega is a slightly better Mega,

The Navy Domi can get upwards of like 1700DPS so it very easy to gank with.

Scorp Navy issue is a shield brick.

Like really. They hav uses. Saying that they are not important to have at least one of these ships is limiting yourself.

The Battleships that have problems, Are the Rokh which is outperformed by the Naga. The Scorpion which is outperformed by the Rook and Falcon, And I've personally haven't had the chance to mess around with the Matar battleships, so I can't go into that.

But what I'm trying to say is. They are not as bad as you say they are.

EDIT: Also Judging by the Typhoon you lost, I really don't think you have any idea how to fly Battleships to begin with.

EDIT2: And the Tempest.
#DeleteTheWeak
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-05-13 06:55:07 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Exotic Matters wrote:
I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.



When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else.
Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk.

If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one.



Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'.

In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V.
And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly.



Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task.
But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks.


For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#15 - 2015-05-13 07:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Exotic Matters wrote:
I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.



When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else.
Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk.

If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one.



Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'.

In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V.
And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly.



Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task.
But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks.


For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov.



The L4 **** is because of warpspeed, not because of performance, application or dps.
That's why the Mach is still a top tier mission runner. Cause of warpspeed.

If you think that a small area of the game - L4s - is a way to measure cost / effectiveness of battleships, then please start threads about anything non T3 because for L4 they are sooooo bad. Dictors for example, wow, how am i going to do an AE in my Sabre?
NOT worth the SP.


And for Nullsec, you forget about the FIGHTS that usually are or should happen prior to structure bashes.
Those fights will change through fozzie sov, of course, but dropping a BS fleet will still be a good way to brawl command nodes.


Edit: http://crossingzebras.com/small-gang-tier-list-part-4-battleships/
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-05-13 07:36:35 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
There are a lot of uses for Battleships then what you are eluding to,

Yes they do need tweaked, I'll agree to that. BUT they all have very good uses. I'll cover what I know,

Domi's and Geddons make for great POS bashers. The Spider RR tank they can field is more then enough to handle defending gangs and the POS weapons systems.

Any RHML fitted battleship with wreck small cruiser gangs,

Ravens ARE the PVE boats,

Hype's are good DPS ships in small local repped defending fleets.

The Mega is a very good gank ship, a good fleet ship, and overall a very well balanced BS

The 90% web Vindi can easily take out smaller targets.

A Shield Mach is a war machine.

The Bhaal is irreplaceable in Wormhole Defensive fleets, and anti-cap roles.

The Nestor is a mini-carrier and reps just about as much as full blown carrier.

The Rattlesnake can dish out some HEAVY Dps with it's drones.

The Navy Mega is a slightly better Mega,

The Navy Domi can get upwards of like 1700DPS so it very easy to gank with.

Scorp Navy issue is a shield brick.

Like really. They hav uses. Saying that they are not important to have at least one of these ships is limiting yourself.

The Battleships that have problems, Are the Rokh which is outperformed by the Naga. The Scorpion which is outperformed by the Rook and Falcon, And I've personally haven't had the chance to mess around with the Matar battleships, so I can't go into that.

But what I'm trying to say is. They are not as bad as you say they are.

EDIT: Also Judging by the Typhoon you lost, I really don't think you have any idea how to fly Battleships to begin with.

EDIT2: And the Tempest.



So Megathron/Droneboats and high SP/cost faction ships are the only way to do it huh? Sounds like a bias on CCP's part to Gallente. I am not talking about fleets, A fleet of T3s would kill any fleet of battleships. And nice stab at my pride Big smile
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-05-13 07:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Exotic Matters wrote:
I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.



When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else.
Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk.

If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one.



Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'.

In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V.
And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly.



Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task.
But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks.


For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov.



The L4 **** is because of warpspeed, not because of performance, application or dps.
That's why the Mach is still a top tier mission runner. Cause of warpspeed.

If you think that a small area of the game - L4s - is a way to measure cost / effectiveness of battleships, then please start threads about anything non T3 because for L4 they are sooooo bad. Dictors for example, wow, how am i going to do an AE in my Sabre?
NOT worth the SP.


And for Nullsec, you forget about the FIGHTS that usually are or should happen prior to structure bashes.
Those fights will change through fozzie sov, of course, but dropping a BS fleet will still be a good way to brawl command nodes.


Edit: http://crossingzebras.com/small-gang-tier-list-part-4-battleships/


No no. I am saying all they can do is LVL 4's and T3s can do those well enough too. The only thing battleships have going for them is insurance.
Valkin Mordirc
#18 - 2015-05-13 08:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Aza Ebanu wrote:



So Megathron/Droneboats and high SP/cost faction ships are the only way to do it huh? Sounds like a bias on CCP's part to Gallente. I am not talking about fleets, A fleet of T3s would kill any fleet of battleships. And nice stab at my pride Big smile



It's not a stab at your pride. If it was I would have commented on the fact that you were so salty after losing a battleship you came here to post about how crap they are. I only said the reason you lost a battleship is because you have no clue on how to fit them. If that hurts your feelings, then...Whatever.

Don't cherry pick information it doesn't do anyone any favours and you end up hurting yourself because you to concerned about being right that you are ignoring useful information.

Yes CCP does seem have bias for Gal ships, Judging on how many Pirate Faction ships need the Gallente ship skill, but thats not the point,

Battleships are also not solo ships. If you expect to go out into lowsec and solo in battleship you are silly and will most likely die in a ball of flames. There are times where you find a perfect set up where you CAN solo with a battleship, and you can do it if your okay with dying in a fire five times before you do, the most power to you honestly.

I gave a list what Battleships do.

You are moving your goal post from, All battleships suck. To only certain battleships suck.


So, my question to you now is, Are you here to Whine, Troll, or figure how you can be better at this game and have fun with it?


EDIT: and ofcourse a T3 fleet will whelp a battleship fleet. T3's are broken as fuuuuuuuuuck. Don't compare a Tank to an A-10 and expect the tank to win.
#DeleteTheWeak
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-05-13 08:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:



So Megathron/Droneboats and high SP/cost faction ships are the only way to do it huh? Sounds like a bias on CCP's part to Gallente. I am not talking about fleets, A fleet of T3s would kill any fleet of battleships. And nice stab at my pride Big smile



It's not a stab at your pride. If it was I would have commented on the fact that you were so salty after losing a battleship you came here to post about how crap they are. I only said the reason you lost a battleship is because you have no clue on how to fit them. If that hurts your feelings, then...Whatever.

Don't cherry pick information it doesn't do anyone any favours and you end up hurting yourself because you to concerned about being right that you are ignoring useful information.

Yes CCP does seem have bias for Gal ships, Judging on how many Pirate Faction ships need the Gallente ship skill, but thats not the point,

Battleships are also not solo ships. If you expect to go out into lowsec and solo in battleship you are silly and will most likely die in a ball of flames. There are times where you find a perfect set up where you CAN solo with a battleship, and you can do it if your okay with dying in a fire five times before you do, the most power to you honestly.

I gave a list what Battleships do.

You are moving your goal post from, All battleships suck. To only certain battleships suck.


So, my question to you now is, Are you here to Whine, Troll, or figure how you can be better at this game and have fun with it?

No you gave a list of faction BS and Gallente stuff. For the skill points, Battleships aren't worth it. No ship in EVE is really a solo ship. Battleships are just so gimped, it is understood that you have to have another ship, because if a solo frig,cruiser,etc... gets proper range it is over. You haven't even flown all of them. I have flown all races battleships and I am telling you the class as a whole is crap. And all you did was cherry pick. "Sure the Gallente ships can hit smaller stuff as they get bonuses no other battleships except the Apoc gets, so battleships are still viable!" is pure nonsense bordering on fanboyism.

Nice stab at my pride againBig smile. I see I have met someone who really loves his three legged dog here.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2015-05-13 08:36:30 UTC
What is your methodolgy when measure BS effectivness / efficiency?

I read some lame comments and nothing else from your side, and then you started verbal dueling.

You are fail to learn the way of successfull BS piloting. Feel sorry for that.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

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