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Science & Industry

 
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State of T2 Production?

Author
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2015-02-20 17:01:38 UTC
I say that it makes sense to wait a while before making changes. For me, it has become clear that ranks need a rework, especially for modules. But Indu changes of this magnitude do certainly need time to show their full impact

Let's take the fatigue changes as an example. Those have, and will continue to change the way nullsec is supplied. Taking a look at caps and cap mod ranks makes no sense without waiting a bit to see how sov null adjusts to the changes.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#102 - 2015-02-22 11:32:02 UTC
In terms of modules being used and strengths of modules I have a fairly good idea what is being planned..........but I'm not going to tell you. Twisted

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Alex Rosen
Abscondita in Stellis
#103 - 2015-03-03 12:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Rosen
I agree there's many simple things that could be done to correct the actual situation, but first it should be some kind of signal of CCP recognizing there's a problem. So far I haven't seen one.

And the guy apparently responsible for this isn't even in the company anymore.

Also CCP has a very distorted view of the production situation. Eve market had a severe problem of overproduction before Crius and they add a TE bonus for almost every science related skill? WTF
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2015-03-04 11:35:31 UTC
Selaria Unbertable wrote:

... And traveling around with BPCs and datacores, despite their volume reduction, is a pita, you have to get back to fetch the invented bpcs and bring them to your production facility...

not only pita but RISK. The thing is all the game is around (at least they say so).

Replacing RISK by cost-efficiency is bad for the game design.
That's why i have never understood the reasons behind slots removing.
We want people to use POSes? POSes are not needed since slots removed.
We want people to spread around and risk by their stuff doing this? No need to move from Jita anyway. You just pay more for doing industry there.
Industry is limited by availability of slots and time? There is no more limits here.

Need to say that all my experience with industry comes from occasional researching tasks in past and few manufacturing cases. So i agree right from the start that i can miss lots of things here.
However:
- Year ago: i bought BPC in Dodixie. I fill my ship by minerals and go 3 systems away to manufacture the ship (Dodixie slots are busy for next 10+ days). Time+RISK here (i use industrial + i'm in militia so i have lots of wartargets).
- Yesterday: i bought BPC for ship in Dodixie. I press few buttons and manufacture the ship. The cost is few thousand ISK (maybe it was more but i didn't notice it anyway). Hour after and newly created ship is on market. Hour after and i have sold it and got a profit. Time? Nope. RISK? Nope. For me it is great and flawless. For the game - it is bad design.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#105 - 2015-03-09 12:10:57 UTC
Alex Rosen wrote:
I agree there's many simple things that could be done to correct the actual situation, but first it should be some kind of signal of CCP recognizing there's a problem. So far I haven't seen one.

And the guy apparently responsible for this isn't even in the company anymore.

Also CCP has a very distorted view of the production situation. Eve market had a severe problem of overproduction before Crius and they add a TE bonus for almost every science related skill? WTF



I tell ya, its like the dude responsible almost did it on purpose to ruin it. Coincidentally the same was responsible for dominion sov, alchemy, super buffs, technetium and the T2 overhaul. (and allegedly he was a goon: which prim goal is to destroy eve) Pirate
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#106 - 2015-03-09 15:35:54 UTC
Alex Rosen wrote:
I agree there's many simple things that could be done to correct the actual situation, but first it should be some kind of signal of CCP recognizing there's a problem. So far I haven't seen one.

Not a peep so far, but it's early days.

We've been waiting since December 2009 for Dominion Sov to be fixed and that part of the game, to quote CCP Fozzie, is a big ******* deal. If CCP think that industry is a comparatively niche part of the game (as evidenced by the treatment it has received thus far) we might not even get that kind of rapid attention.

While there are some quick wins that can be had, like re-mapping blueprint ranks, there are also some really nasty bits of the game that need to be completely re-worked. Just ripping out Crius will not help, because a big part of the Crius problem is that they papered over the cracks in related areas of the game rather than fixing them.

In order to have an industry system that is actually better than either the post-Crius or pre-Crius industry systems and represents real progress, we need extensive re-works done on both POSes and corp roles. We'll also need some more minor work done (and a thorough bug-fix) on the inventory and contract systems. That's before you consider logistics, mining etc.

Looking at the amount of work that needs to be done, the rate at which CCP is progressing and the sometimes cowboy-quality workmanship that we've been getting from them lately... I would strongly advise against anyone holding their breath for this.

Alex Rosen wrote:
And the guy apparently responsible for this isn't even in the company anymore.

I think we can be thankful for that small mercy.

Alex Rosen wrote:
Also CCP has a very distorted view of the production situation. Eve market had a severe problem of overproduction before Crius and they add a TE bonus for almost every science related skill? WTF

This touches on one of the thorny issues we have with CCP, that they don't know or understand their own game as well as we would like. As a result they keep on doing pants-on-head ******** things, over and over again. I think they need to work harder at hiring and retaining more subject matter experts in the design and QA teams.

Trin Javidan wrote:
I tell ya, its like the dude responsible almost did it on purpose to ruin it.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Trin Javidan wrote:
Coincidentally the same was responsible for dominion sov, alchemy, super buffs, technetium and the T2 overhaul.

All of which can be attributed to a woefully shallow understanding of the game. That, combined with excessive confidence and the usual pressures of business.
Quartermaster Wild
Row Row Fight the Power
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#107 - 2015-03-10 03:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Quartermaster Wild
As someone just starting up research / manufacturing (coming from a station trader), this is a fascinating thread, thanks especially to Bad Bobby and Gilbaron (edit: Also Sabriz).

Question: Comments were made about the lack of higher end content available for this avenue of gameplay in EvE - aside from the previous industry iteration that allowed Bad Bobby to operate on such an impressive scale, what currently would you define as the higher end content? Supercaps / Titans? T3 Cruisers?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#108 - 2015-03-10 05:11:25 UTC
Quartermaster Wild wrote:
As someone just starting up research / manufacturing (coming from a station trader), this is a fascinating thread, thanks especially to Bad Bobby and Gilbaron (edit: Also Sabriz).

Question: Comments were made about the lack of higher end content available for this avenue of gameplay in EvE - aside from the previous industry iteration that allowed Bad Bobby to operate on such an impressive scale, what currently would you define as the higher end content? Supercaps / Titans? T3 Cruisers?



High end industry content can just be a matter of scaling it up (I know one person that runs about 400 science jobs at a time). It can be producing individual supercapitals, larger numbers of capitals, or serious production lines of the larger subcapitals (particularly T1 battleships, which require tens of billions of capital).

For me, a good deal of my production profit comes from sourcing pirate ship BPCs at bargain prices, moving them to areas they will sell well, and building the hulls there and selling them. This can be done on a larger scale than I do it.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#109 - 2015-03-10 05:28:08 UTC
Quartermaster Wild wrote:
Comments were made about the lack of higher end content available for this avenue of gameplay in EvE - aside from the previous industry iteration that allowed Bad Bobby to operate on such an impressive scale, what currently would you define as the higher end content? Supercaps / Titans? T3 Cruisers?

The only elements of EVE industry that count as high end industrial content in my mind, are supercapital production and production from T2 BPOs. Both are only high end due to the high barriers to entry, as the actual content represented by either option is rather simplistic, but the road taken to gain access to either option is often rather complex. In both cases it's the nature of the sandbox surrounding them that makes them interesting.

What I was doing with my POS network before Crius killed it, was mid-range content done on a fairly large scale. It was the scale of my operations and the massive persistent destructible factory network that I had to build and run to do it that made it both complex and interesting. Now most of the mid-range options have been removed, what remains are things like POS-based capital manufacturing, T3 production, reactions and drug production.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#110 - 2015-03-10 05:33:21 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
High end industry content can just be a matter of scaling it up

I disagree on that point. Massive scale doesn't make the content high-end industry, it just makes the player a high-end industrialist.



HoruSeth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2015-03-11 10:12:39 UTC
Selaria Unbertable wrote:

Thin, yes. But some were still profitable. The problem is the huge decrease in production time of modules and ammo, resulting in a much larger supply, while the demand has not increased significantly. Drones, rigs and ships were not affected by this, their production time has not changed that drastically.


That's just not correct. I have produced Rigs, T1 and T2 before Crius a lot (as I do exploration a lot) and it was well worth the time and effort. Nowadays it's not even close to be worthwile to think about. It's more efficient to just sell the Salvage to buy orders.

Crius and especially the reprocessing patch ****** up industry in most areas. I am happy they took at least the teams out again.

The problems really are the "mined minerals are free" people and those who may not have recognised, that material requirements for some stuff have changed. But I don't want to cry about that. It's just a conclusion from what I have seen and recognised on the market. While before Crius you could produce stuff without doing trading, this is nowadays very hard to do / in most cases impossible.

So you only use nowadays production to maximise your trading profit, whilst it was before Crius vice versa. You traded to maximise your production profit.

On my gravestone will be written: "Died because he used sarcasm in the wrong moment"

EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2015-03-12 15:12:45 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:

The only elements of EVE industry that count as high end industrial content in my mind, are supercapital production and production from T2 BPOs. Both are only high end due to the high barriers to entry, as the actual content represented by either option is rather simplistic, but the road taken to gain access to either option is often rather complex. In both cases it's the nature of the sandbox surrounding them that makes them interesting.

supercap manufacturing is so ******* boring, the only effort is freightering
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#113 - 2015-03-12 16:37:43 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:

The only elements of EVE industry that count as high end industrial content in my mind, are supercapital production and production from T2 BPOs. Both are only high end due to the high barriers to entry, as the actual content represented by either option is rather simplistic, but the road taken to gain access to either option is often rather complex. In both cases it's the nature of the sandbox surrounding them that makes them interesting.

supercap manufacturing is so ******* boring, the only effort is freightering

I agree... except, of course, when it goes wrong... then it can get exciting!

All of EVE's industry has always been overly simple. The only real challenges were provided by the lack of good documentation, the terrible UI, the plentiful bugs, the mind crushing boredom and other players ******* with your ****.

But then players created their own documentation, player-made tools compensated for some of the terrible UI, players figured their way around the bugs, players took drugs, massively multi-boxed, played other games or watched TV on another screens to deal with the boredom. Very little challenge remained for the veteran player.

Then CCP allowed almost all industry to be carried out inside an NPC station with no meaningful downsides. Removing almost all options for other players ******* with your ****. No challenge remained for the veteran player, except how to get those Cheeto stains out of the carpet.

So now CCP either needs to bring back the sandbox and allow players to generate some decent content for each other, or they actually need to create an industry system that doesn't resemble a child's teething toy. Preferably both.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2015-03-13 22:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
HoruSeth wrote:
Selaria Unbertable wrote:

Thin, yes. But some were still profitable. The problem is the huge decrease in production time of modules and ammo, resulting in a much larger supply, while the demand has not increased significantly. Drones, rigs and ships were not affected by this, their production time has not changed that drastically.


That's just not correct. I have produced Rigs, T1 and T2 before Crius a lot (as I do exploration a lot) and it was well worth the time and effort. Nowadays it's not even close to be worthwile to think about. It's more efficient to just sell the Salvage to buy orders.

Crius and especially the reprocessing patch ****** up industry in most areas. I am happy they took at least the teams out again.

The problems really are the "mined minerals are free" people and those who may not have recognised, that material requirements for some stuff have changed. But I don't want to cry about that. It's just a conclusion from what I have seen and recognised on the market. While before Crius you could produce stuff without doing trading, this is nowadays very hard to do / in most cases impossible.

So you only use nowadays production to maximise your trading profit, whilst it was before Crius vice versa. You traded to maximise your production profit.



that's bullshit. rigs are extremely profitable to manufacture. lots of them are well above 500.000 ISK/hr and well above 20% profit. they also sell great and material is easy to get.
Captain Zorg
Capitoline Research and Development
#115 - 2015-03-19 00:32:10 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
T2 production is a complete mess, don't try it or run your own figures, it's a guaranteed loss.


I'm making a fortune.
Claudia Cotta
Guns Ships and Ammo Trade
#116 - 2015-03-19 00:50:17 UTC
I buy from Jita, ship it out to build and then ship it back. I'm making between 15 and 35 million profit per ship depending on the market. I sell 120-140 ships per month from that production line.

Since the changes to POS came into effect I can in theory run numerous productions lines from the same modules using different characters. My only limitation in the near term is playing the Isk game in Jita.
inflogim
Blue Color Works
#117 - 2015-05-22 08:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: inflogim
Captain Zorg wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
T2 production is a complete mess, don't try it or run your own figures, it's a guaranteed loss.


I'm making a fortune.


Could You be so kind not to input Your unproductive comments into otherwise very informative thread ? Thanks.
Bobby, Gilbaron, much appreciated that You took time and effort to produce all those posts.
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
#118 - 2015-05-22 15:12:15 UTC
Ms Forum Alt wrote:
I haven't built anything since Crius. I still run my fingers over those spreadsheets occasionally, but the margins I see on most things make it not worth my time to bother. It seems "the minerals I mine are free" is the only way to make a good solid profit building things in Eve these days. If you want to run your operation as a business, you're better off doing it for love, not margin.


I think a lot of it with ships is "I bought a MASSIVE stockpile before mineral re-balancing, so my minerals really are cheaper." I bought some high megacyte/zydrine modules pre-patch and can afford to sell them below build cost because my original costs were below build costs.

Also the fact that 100% reprocessing has been removed kills manufacturing. Before, anything that was sold below mineral value got taken off the market immediately. Now has to either buy out all of them and hope the price stays higher (a dicey proposition) or actually buy the item to use, which also takes time.
Geopoly
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2015-07-17 17:03:06 UTC
Thank you all contributors to this informative, yet depressing thread. I was hoping to start making some ISK manufacturing rather than mining, apparently my dreams will never come true...

I hope CCP will fix tiers of items so lowest cannot be produced so fast and flood the market.
Science & industry skills must be an accomplishment and give a competitive advantage. Now skills are no achievement, nothing to aspire or plan for...
And also be a man CCP, delete all those T2 BPOs finally!

As for hopes for another industry centered expansion, in this podcast, Fozzie destroys all hope:
http://evenews24.com/2015/07/16/en24-podcast-ccp-fozzie-on-sovereignty-part-ii/
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#120 - 2015-07-23 15:03:22 UTC
Geopoly wrote:
Thank you all contributors to this informative, yet depressing thread. I was hoping to start making some ISK manufacturing rather than mining, apparently my dreams will never come true...

The reality is hardly as depressing as this thread suggests. There is always profit to be made.

I'll stand by my statement that the lower ranks need to be remapped.

S&I skills have been massively devalued and no "added bonus" for replacing Production Efficiency (compulsory skill) with Advanced Industry (yes, let's have even more overproduction) has ever materialised.

T2 BPOs are fine, finer than they have been for some time really. All the issues with them are now either fixed, historical or identical to the issues presented by all of EVE's industry system.

The industry expansion you are looking for is when they release all the new structures. That's when the meat will arrive to go with the potatoes that we must subsist on in the meantime. Unless they **** it up, obviously.