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Battleships, and their use

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#181 - 2015-01-28 11:57:07 UTC
Lets not forget every scram fitted intercepters nightmare that is the large smartbomb.
Catalytic morphisis
Deep Space Coalition
Fraternity.
#182 - 2015-01-28 14:18:06 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27118231

There is your proof. Megathron, dual web, tracking enhancer, tracking rig, and tracking computer loaded with tracking script. Ishkur got in under my guns, not a single shot landed, shot all my drones and tanked them with ease. Held me till his friend in the hyperion showed up. The void loaded was when I began fighting the Hyperion, had Caldari Navy antimatter loaded with the Iskur. Game over. End of discussion


Need to learn the web trick.

Also you had no neut.


Which web trick> I want to learn!

I just wanted to show people that kept going on about how the mega would smack frigs around, blah blah, that they did not know what they were talking about.


I tell you what, fit a frigate of choice, And I'll fit a mega, And I can demonstrate how easily I can deal with a frigate in it :) Just let me know where and when :P

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#183 - 2015-01-28 14:39:28 UTC
Futt Isimazu wrote:
Finally, we look in the drone bay and see that this pilot has neglected to bring any kind of light drones, instead relying on sentries, mediums and geckos. Whoops!

In this pilot's defense, deployed drones don't show up on killmails. It's entirely possible that he had a flight of light drones out.

Having said that, only having one flight of light drones on a Domi? Yeah, still bad.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Phig Neutron
Starbreaker and Sons
#184 - 2015-01-28 17:26:13 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Battleships are bad becuase of 4 problems...

1. Warp Speed: Te changes seen to warp speed have let BS trailing in the dust. 2Au/S is just pathetic. Can't work in a roaming gang.

2. Lock Speed: The fact that a BS needs 10+ seconds to lock a frigate / inty is just inecusable....

3. On grid mobility / Speed: Again BS are EXTREAMLY slow to align ,and speed wise in the current meta. Most T1 nano cruisers are already 2.5K+ ...

4. Lack of overwhelming DPS / Tank that would make one want to choose a BS in the first place. THe scalability of DPS / Tank from a cruiser to a BS is in all actuality really not very high....


This was a few pages back, but did anyone else feel, as I did, that this guy had it entirely wrong, except for #1?
Battleships have always been slow to lock frigates, slower to move around than nano cruisers, and their damage never scaled linearly with cost (a BS is 100x more expensive than a frigate and 10x more than a cruiser, but it doesn't have 100x or 10x the damage).

As far as I can tell, the warp speed thing is a problem but only because of Chessur's second point: "can't work in a roaming gang". Your corpmates will get annoyed with you, basically.

Points #2-#3 are only problems if you assume that the purpose of the battleship is to solo-fight frigates. And as many of you have shown, it is entirely possible to do so if you're willing to make compromises from a standard fleet fit, trade a gun for a neut and so forth. Who really thinks battleships are supposed to be insta-locking nano-MWD solo gatecamp anti-interceptor ships?

Since coming back to the game (after 4 years away), the real change seems to be that frigates and cruisers have been buffed so much that a battleship is by comparison too slow and too costly. You could use a HAC or T3 for almost any purpose that you'd have used a BS for in the old days, and most nullbear corps have incorporated that fact into their ship replacement policies. Just wait a while for the next round of nerfs and buffs.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2015-02-03 05:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Futt Isimazu wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Futt Isimazu wrote:
ITT: Better not reply to the good advice, can't continue rambling like an idiot



Snipes aside, How capable are Cruise/RHML typhoons for solo PVP?


Rambling like an idiot? Everything I said is backed up with real situations and facts, and kill mails. Most BS are terrible on their own. Without a neut they are totally defenseless, and apparently in order to even be used correctly in most cases require significant fleet support, implants, boosters, etc. Which honestly if you read all the posts, and the above sentence, it all spells out one thing...... MOST BS ARE TERRIBLE.

I am not talking about the exceptions to the rule such as the Machariel and Vindicator. I am talking about the general state of T1 BS. The more people try to defend them with "BS need this, and this, and that, and oh yea that too, in order to be effective" the more they speak volumes of truth about my original post.

Point is, a slow, slow warping, slow tracking, slow targeting, flying paper weight, that can be outdone by several cruiser hulls, but costs about 10 times as much and requires about 20 times as much to fly properly in order to get any use out of, is a broken game element. Period.



Pretty sure every killmail you've posted has either failed to fit a neut, failed to fit an active tank, or both, and plenty of people have pointed that out.



Let's look at some lovely battleship killboards, right in the solo section.

https://zkillboard.com/ship/640/solo/

First stop: Scorpion. I definately see lots of scorpions being solo killed by frigates here... Oh wait, those are solo frigate kills by a scorpion pilot! Shock and horror. In fact, I see a lot of successful solo kills. Now let's look at the lossmails.

Every single scorpion lossmail on the first page is either a fail fit, a PVE fit, or a passive/no neut fit, and most of them are in highsec to wardec corps - losses by carebears, what a suprise.


https://zkillboard.com/ship/644/solo/

Second stop: Typhoon. Wow, this looks like a lot of solo losses to frigates again! /s
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44191075/ Even an interceptor is vulnerable to a battleship, and that's one of the fastest ships in the game. Taking a look at losses, I see (mostly) fail fits, no-neut fits, a possible AWOX and passive tanks - no suprises here.


https://zkillboard.com/ship/645/solo/

Stop 3: Dominix.

I'm going to cut right to the chase here, because I know you will too. OMG, a solo loss to a frigate! I'm right battleships useless blah blah blah. Let's look closer...
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44178505/

First of all, our battleship pilot has failed to fit a Neut. How do you expect to survive an attack from an active tanked frigate, or to escape from a frigate under your guns without a neut fitted? This pilot has already failed.

Next, if we plug the fit into EFT, something else becomes immediately apparent. This battleship is not even cap stable with all skills at level 5, and has a maximum burst tank of 180DPS - less than the DPS of a blaster enyo with good skills. The active tank is not strong enough to stop the guns of the frigate.

Finally, we look in the drone bay and see that this pilot has neglected to bring any kind of light drones, instead relying on sentries, mediums and geckos. Whoops!



As I've shown with my top quality posting, battleships do not have issues in 1v1 solo combat - it is the pilot that is the dunce, not the ship. Failure to fit an active tank, neuts and light drones can account for 90% of the solo battleship losses in eve to date.


Every ship you picked is a missile or drone BS, neither of which suffer anywhere near the problem I have been mentioning.

If you read ANY of my posts, I was specifically talking about GUNBOATS. You can not get UNDER THE GUNS of a missile boat, or a drone boat that can do over 250 dps with light drones.

You can, however, in a simple incursus, make a megathron completely useless with little difficulty. The only exception is if they fitted a neut and ruined their effective dps to anything other then a frigate, and that only will counter ONE frigate. If there is two you are still screwed
Alexi Drakenovic
Doomheim
#186 - 2015-02-03 05:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexi Drakenovic
I have read your posts.. I didn't thing you could get under the guns on missile boats cause.. well.. missiles.. It is okay though, i down graded ship sizes to a Garmur, want to try it out soonish when im skilled enough to fly it
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#187 - 2015-02-05 16:00:41 UTC
Are T3s really going to get nerfed ? That's ridiculous, as it is a T3 can't even come close to the speed of the T1 racial counterpart yet it needs to be nerfed ? There will be no reason at all to spend money on a T3 if they get any worse.
Valkin Mordirc
#188 - 2015-02-07 07:34:53 UTC
BS'es are okayish. Some have there used and they do it well. Here's what I've find to be useful. I have not used Mimmie amd Navy Amarr BS'es so I won't touch them


Gal.

Domi: Great for POS Bashing, and RR Spider Tanks,

Hyper, Great for a strong active tanking small gang fighting, as long as Neuts are not an issue.

Mega, Great for absolution trashing BC gangs. with tackle support they make a great and cheap DPS ship.

Faction Gal,

Navy Domi makes a great gank ship when fitted for shield, 1700dps is nothing to sneeze at while maintaining a Duel XL-ASB tank.

NAvy Mega, Just like the Mega but +1 Neut and MOAR tank.

Cal,

Rohk makes an okay sniper although the Naga outperforms it, for twice the speed/agility. It also makes a decent brawler with blasters capable of fitting a strong tank and keeping around 900 to 1000 DPS

Raven is the best PVE T1 battleship

Scorp of course is out classed in the ECM role by the T2 REcons and EAF.

Faction.

Navy Raven, even better PVE ship.

Navy Scorp. Litteral shield brick.

Amarr,

Geddon makes a great POS basher. Is a good force Multiplier with it's neuts. It's a great ship all round.

Abbondon/Apoc, just like the navy scorp, literal bricks.

Pirates

Vindi is the Buttsex surprise ship of EVE, 1500dps, 250-300k DPS 90% webs. What can't you turn down?

Bahl, theres a reason Nul blocks use these, Neuts are the spice to life, and will make your enemies cry, if they had the cap left to do it anyways.

Bargest is a little weird. It could probably rekt a Vindi one on one, but as a kitty battleship it's to slow and the point bonus is a little lackluster. As a bump ship, its REALLY hard to miss with the Biggest Sub-Cap in Eve.

Nightmare, Incursion anyone?

Rattler is murderer. It will tear you apart if it's running a Gecko. And it can run a strong active tank

Nestors Rep stupid amounts of EHP, I personally can't wait to try Spider Nestor fleets once the price get's below a bill. =S

The Mach makes a fantastic Nano BS, and the perfect bump ship.
#DeleteTheWeak
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#189 - 2015-02-07 12:55:40 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Geddon makes a great POS basher. Is a good force Multiplier with it's neuts. It's a great ship all round.

Quoting this for emphasis.

It's like someone took a Domi, a Typhoon, and a Curse, locked them in a lab with some scientists, and the 'Geddon is the genetically engineered love child of the three. It fills a variety of roles exceedingly well, and an even wider variety of roles passably. I'd say that it's likely the single most flexible ship in the game. I personally have used them for:

POS Bashing (lasers, torps, drones)
Spider tanking
Cap warfare
Long range bombardment (sentries and cruise missiles)
Brawling
And, my favorite, the 30+km sphere of frigate death (full cap warfare + drone bay full of heavily beefed up lights)


And, it looks dead sexy to boot.

What's not to love?

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#190 - 2015-02-07 13:09:01 UTC
I just got a Typhoon and those RHML's smack frigs pretty hard.

As do its drones....:)

I haven't seen anybody mention it but as far as I'm concerned if you are a battlewagon driver Large Microjumps are pretty much mandatory vis a vis mobility......your second prop mod can be a MWD or burner but MJD's are pretty much required IMO.

Weirdly enough I don't have a Geddon. Which is pretty odd considering I'm an old Nozzie Domi pilot from way back in the day.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#191 - 2015-03-17 00:18:07 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#192 - 2015-03-17 01:16:18 UTC
I would like to point out that battleships are the ace of station humping. If you think that's not true, bring something small to Umokka for a demonstration.

Smart money says never engage a typhoon up close with a smaller ship, no matter what it is.

If you want to prove me wrong, I'll take that lesson.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2015-03-17 03:01:58 UTC
The death of the BS, and to a large degree, the BC class is really a two-fold issue.

1) Drones should never have been made into a main weapon system in Eve. Real battleships carry not only a main battery of big guns, but also a host of smaller point defense weapons. Eve doesn't really support that concept- you could reserve some high slots for smaller weapons but that would nerf the usefulness of the main battery too much. So we instead got drones to deal with small ships.

The problem came when those 'supplemental' weapons got buffed into a main weapon branch, then stuck into ships smaller than the size of the weapon system itself. If an assault rifle were as effective as a howitzer, no one would bring a howitzer to a war.

Cruisers are much too versatile AND powerful at the same time to warrant using a narrowly focused ship like a BS instead. Prior, only the tier 3 BC hulls mounted weapons larger than themselves to any effect, but paid a huge penalty in terms of tank (and point defense such as the Naga having none at all).
But drone cruisers have the firepower advantage of a BS with none of the drawbacks. They can combine speed, low sig, and actual damage absorption to easily compete with the raw tank of a BS hull. They can escape where a BC/BS could not and engage at almost any range given a pile of drones in the bay to choose from.

2) The rise of the capital ship also ruined the BS. It is much easier and less risky to throw a few dreads on a structure to hit it before a response could be mounted, than to slow-boat a bunch of BS's to grind on it. Unless caught in siege, the dreads will just jump out at the first sign of danger, where the BS fleet is a sitting duck that still needs to be extracted after the mission.

So, you have smaller ships with the same firepower, and larger ships with less vulnerability. The BS becomes obsolete.
Abbot Jackson
Project Nogero
#194 - 2015-03-18 17:29:16 UTC
I don't fly battleships, but from what I understand there were several things you were doing wrong.

Battleships have lots of high slots which you can place neuts and smartbombs in. If you are trying to solo pvp (define what you mean by this, do you have an alt scout? links? where are you doing this?) in a BS your highslots should not all be guns. Neuts in conjunction with a Micro Jump Drive should make it quite difficult/impossible for a frigate to maintain a point on you.

As for tracking, I would suggest trying different ships than gallente blaster boats. Lasers have better tracking, and, when paired with a MJD, can help you control the grid to great effect.

Finally, your choice of targets is important. Minmatar frigates will probably be the hardest frigates for a battleship to deal with, due to their speed and lack of reliance on capacitor. Interceptors will also be difficult to kill, but if you have drones and smartbombs, it won't be impossible. You should also fight your opponents on gates and stations, where, given the advantage of your tank, you have the option to disengage.

There are plenty of tools at your disposal that could assist you in the role that you are trying to fill. But don't "solo pvp" in a battleship and expect not to die.

But I should reiterate that this is all theory for me. I'm terrible and have no intentions of getting better.

SULKY CAREBEAR RAGE

PRONS4LIFE

HTP REPRESENT
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#195 - 2015-03-19 14:45:14 UTC
Abbot Jackson wrote:

Neuts in conjunction with a Micro Jump Drive should make it quite difficult/impossible for a frigate to maintain a point on you.

As for tracking, I would suggest trying different ships than gallente blaster boats. Lasers have better tracking, and, when paired with a MJD, can help you control the grid to great effect.



A scram will kill a MJD from spooling up. So unles you already happen to be at range (which means you didn't need the MJD anyways) for the 9-12sec (depending on skills) spool up time you are probably going to get scrammed. Neuting a single frigate might allow you to escape but facing multiple tacklers and you are screwed.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#196 - 2015-03-19 15:13:01 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
This is exactly why BS were decommissioned after WW2

Even though RL nerfed battleships as much as CCP did, I don't see many "FU RL!" posts on the forums. Be consistent fellas. If you're going to knock CCP for doing the same things as RL, then you need to be upset at both.
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#197 - 2015-03-19 16:27:43 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
This will most likely come off as a rant, and I am sure I will get totally flamed for it, given that is the type of mentality of most EVE players, but I have something that I really don't understand.

I really enjoyed flying battleships, I liked how they felt, what they look like, and the overall experience. However, outside of PVE, and maybe some station bashing, they are almost totally useless. There are exceptions, mostly the drone and neut boats, but missile and gunnery based battleships are totally disappointing in PVP.

I know this is where everyone is going to scream out and tell me learn to play. I have played EVE for many years, and yes I do stupid things and take stupid risks for the fun and challenge, but I know how to play the game.

My point is, what good is a ship that smaller, cheaper ships outperform in so many ways? The only thing I can think of that battleship are more capable of, is fighting stationary massive targets, and tanking. But what good is a slow, hulking, slow targeting, terribad tracking, ship that can take a whole lot of damage, but not apply any back to anything not their own size?

I mean seriously, a BS poses almost zero threat to anything smaller then a BC and can EASILY be overcome by any t1, t2, frig or cruiser that has any sense and the ability to get in close. Sure it will take a while, but eventually you will run out of cap, or booster charges, and that Ishkur will take your billion dollar paperweight down.

Yes, I understand bigger is not better in EVE. So why the hell does my bigger and less useful battleship cost about 20 times more then my assault frigate which is 10 times more effective at everything but sitting there looking pretty and taking a **** ton of damage? It doesn't make sense! If I spend a billion isk, I want to be able to use it for something and have fun with it, not be restricted to boring missions or the rare instance of station bashing which I am rendered obsolete by dreads.

I can not tell you how many times I have specifically fit my BS to be able to handle smaller targets, double webbed, tracking computers, the whole nine yards, only to have some navy Vexor get in under my guns and **** me up the ass royally, and laugh as my billion dollar investment gets made to look like the prison *****. There is just something wrong with that. It is a Battleship! it should be able to BATTLE, not collect dust in your hangar.

And please, before you all tell me to learn to play, tell me, how often do you see ANYONE even fly a battleship, other then in station games outside Jita? There is a reason for that. They are terrible!



My Navy Raven scored top damage on two different Archon kills this month... I'm pretty sure the battleship hull is still viable. You just need to know the right engagement to fly it in or fly with a better corp/alliance/militia that isn't afraid to field them along with a proper support fleet.

Member of #tweetfleet @stalence // Templis CALSF // YouTube Channel
Major Ream
#198 - 2015-03-19 22:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Ream
Amanda Guido wrote:
However, outside of PVE, and maybe some station bashing, they are almost totally useless. There are exceptions, mostly the drone and neut boats, but missile and gunnery based battleships are totally disappointing in PVP.



Dear Sir playing a Madam (or perhaps actual Madam),

I must regretfully inform you that you are utterly incorrect.
Battleships are essential for the critical task of padding stealth bomber pilot combat records.
For example, thousands of Goonies have rendered their killboards eternally positive, on the strength of having eradicated so many Battleship fleets that nobody sane proposes such a doctrines any more.


Chessur wrote:
Battleships are bad becuase of 4 problems...

1. Warp Speed: Te changes seen to warp speed have let BS trailing in the dust. 2Au/S is just pathetic. Can't work in a roaming gang.

2. Lock Speed: The fact that a BS needs 10+ seconds to lock a frigate / inty is just inecusable....

3. On grid mobility / Speed: Again BS are EXTREAMLY slow to align ,and speed wise in the current meta. Most T1 nano cruisers are already 2.5K+ ...

4. Lack of overwhelming DPS / Tank that would make one want to choose a BS in the first place. THe scalability of DPS / Tank from a cruiser to a BS is in all actuality really not very high....


No man, it's the bombers.
That, and the jump timers. Once upon a time, you could move a battleship fleet about using jump bridges and Titans. Now they pretty much get stuck warping and taking gates, a process so mind numbingly slow that you want to kill yourself after traveling through 3 or 4 systems.
Catalytic morphisis
Deep Space Coalition
Fraternity.
#199 - 2015-03-20 12:31:04 UTC
Major Ream wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
However, outside of PVE, and maybe some station bashing, they are almost totally useless. There are exceptions, mostly the drone and neut boats, but missile and gunnery based battleships are totally disappointing in PVP.



Dear Sir playing a Madam (or perhaps actual Madam),

I must regretfully inform you that you are utterly incorrect.
Battleships are essential for the critical task of padding stealth bomber pilot combat records.
For example, thousands of Goonies have rendered their killboards eternally positive, on the strength of having eradicated so many Battleship fleets that nobody sane proposes such a doctrines any more.


Chessur wrote:
Battleships are bad becuase of 4 problems...

1. Warp Speed: Te changes seen to warp speed have let BS trailing in the dust. 2Au/S is just pathetic. Can't work in a roaming gang.

2. Lock Speed: The fact that a BS needs 10+ seconds to lock a frigate / inty is just inecusable....

3. On grid mobility / Speed: Again BS are EXTREAMLY slow to align ,and speed wise in the current meta. Most T1 nano cruisers are already 2.5K+ ...

4. Lack of overwhelming DPS / Tank that would make one want to choose a BS in the first place. THe scalability of DPS / Tank from a cruiser to a BS is in all actuality really not very high....


No man, it's the bombers.
That, and the jump timers. Once upon a time, you could move a battleship fleet about using jump bridges and Titans. Now they pretty much get stuck warping and taking gates, a process so mind numbingly slow that you want to kill yourself after traveling through 3 or 4 systems.


Even worse when you realise you have to do the exact same thing with a carrier/Dread fleet

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2015-03-20 15:18:42 UTC
Battleship are good ONLY when more EHP is needed and a tengu is too expensive.

The only real strenght on battleships against smaller ships is the large neutralizer.

The massive lack of mobility hurts them a LOT.

The marginally larger DPS is frequently negated by worse tracking.

When you fit them for range ( a worthy try since they shoudl have longer range than medium guns) they are too hard to fit and still keep any relevant EHP.

Put bombers as the final cherry on top...


Battleships become just a thing in stupidly huge numbers, when the EHP/DPS/RANGE/PRICE curve has a spot where they are a more efficient weapon that will not be crumbling if lost.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"