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High end mineral crisis

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Kazekage Dono
Pertonas Development Inc
#221 - 2014-12-23 11:24:27 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Hippinse wrote:

Everyone else has to make choices. Actions/decisions have consequences. You're advocating for the removal of said drawbacks while stating that no other courses of action will be explored.

What kind of reaction did you expect?


That's the thing- there are no "real" choices in null mining. That is why we're saying that a change needs to be made.

Sure, you could "choose" to mine at a null belt- the same way a mission runner could "choose" to run a level 2 or 3 mission instead of a level 4 mission. You just wouldn't run a level 2 if you have access to and can run a level 4 for the same faction.

Null anomalies are the "level 4 missions" of the mining profession. In their very nature, they are providing a huge surplus of high end minerals to the point that there is literally no reason to go to any other source of minerals in null because there is no incentive to.

The suggestion here isn't to just give us more stuff. It is to remove the bulk of the high end ore from null anoms. That's it. This means that belts and scannable ore sites become valuable again, for everyone, if they want to cherry pick or scout out "rare" ore.

Right now, arkonor is the second least valuable ore in the game. Why? Its primary value component comes from Megacyte. Arkonor is readily available in every null anom. Because you have to cycle anoms to get them to respawn for more low end ores, you have to burn through the arkonor. This leads to a huge supply of Megacyte- vastly more than any production in eve can consume.

This has resulted in the most "valuable" ores in the game becoming garbage. You can obtain more minerals of any type more quickly in an ore anom than anywhere else in null. There is zero incentive to cherry pick unless you are running one or two miners or if you want to eat a huge wealth loss over time.

Therefore, the suggestions are not to "remove the drawbacks" of null anoms- null anoms are already the best in every circumstance. The suggestion is to balance the null anoms so that there is a point for miners to seek out rare ores, while allowing consistent income to still be made at null anoms.




Goons bemoaning people about not knowing nullsec. Then claims a whole bunch of wrong stuff about highsec.

How is about you learn how respawn mechanics work and your figure out how to get belts to respawn properly. And no it's not this 'let rocks grow' crap. That is just ... goonish (otherwise isd will whine about not being respectfull).
Velicitia
XS Tech
#222 - 2014-12-23 11:44:29 UTC
Kazekage Dono wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Hippinse wrote:

Everyone else has to make choices. Actions/decisions have consequences. You're advocating for the removal of said drawbacks while stating that no other courses of action will be explored.

What kind of reaction did you expect?


That's the thing- there are no "real" choices in null mining. That is why we're saying that a change needs to be made.

Sure, you could "choose" to mine at a null belt- the same way a mission runner could "choose" to run a level 2 or 3 mission instead of a level 4 mission. You just wouldn't run a level 2 if you have access to and can run a level 4 for the same faction.

Null anomalies are the "level 4 missions" of the mining profession. In their very nature, they are providing a huge surplus of high end minerals to the point that there is literally no reason to go to any other source of minerals in null because there is no incentive to.

The suggestion here isn't to just give us more stuff. It is to remove the bulk of the high end ore from null anoms. That's it. This means that belts and scannable ore sites become valuable again, for everyone, if they want to cherry pick or scout out "rare" ore.

Right now, arkonor is the second least valuable ore in the game. Why? Its primary value component comes from Megacyte. Arkonor is readily available in every null anom. Because you have to cycle anoms to get them to respawn for more low end ores, you have to burn through the arkonor. This leads to a huge supply of Megacyte- vastly more than any production in eve can consume.

This has resulted in the most "valuable" ores in the game becoming garbage. You can obtain more minerals of any type more quickly in an ore anom than anywhere else in null. There is zero incentive to cherry pick unless you are running one or two miners or if you want to eat a huge wealth loss over time.

Therefore, the suggestions are not to "remove the drawbacks" of null anoms- null anoms are already the best in every circumstance. The suggestion is to balance the null anoms so that there is a point for miners to seek out rare ores, while allowing consistent income to still be made at null anoms.




Goons bemoaning people about not knowing nullsec. Then claims a whole bunch of wrong stuff about highsec.

How is about you learn how respawn mechanics work and your figure out how to get belts to respawn properly. And no it's not this 'let rocks grow' crap. That is just ... goonish (otherwise isd will whine about not being respectfull).



no, the mechanics posted are spot on for the anoms (i.e. "grav sites"). He's not talking about regular system belts.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kazekage Dono
Pertonas Development Inc
#223 - 2014-12-23 13:18:57 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Kazekage Dono wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Hippinse wrote:

Everyone else has to make choices. Actions/decisions have consequences. You're advocating for the removal of said drawbacks while stating that no other courses of action will be explored.

What kind of reaction did you expect?


That's the thing- there are no "real" choices in null mining. That is why we're saying that a change needs to be made.

Sure, you could "choose" to mine at a null belt- the same way a mission runner could "choose" to run a level 2 or 3 mission instead of a level 4 mission. You just wouldn't run a level 2 if you have access to and can run a level 4 for the same faction.

Null anomalies are the "level 4 missions" of the mining profession. In their very nature, they are providing a huge surplus of high end minerals to the point that there is literally no reason to go to any other source of minerals in null because there is no incentive to.

The suggestion here isn't to just give us more stuff. It is to remove the bulk of the high end ore from null anoms. That's it. This means that belts and scannable ore sites become valuable again, for everyone, if they want to cherry pick or scout out "rare" ore.

Right now, arkonor is the second least valuable ore in the game. Why? Its primary value component comes from Megacyte. Arkonor is readily available in every null anom. Because you have to cycle anoms to get them to respawn for more low end ores, you have to burn through the arkonor. This leads to a huge supply of Megacyte- vastly more than any production in eve can consume.

This has resulted in the most "valuable" ores in the game becoming garbage. You can obtain more minerals of any type more quickly in an ore anom than anywhere else in null. There is zero incentive to cherry pick unless you are running one or two miners or if you want to eat a huge wealth loss over time.

Therefore, the suggestions are not to "remove the drawbacks" of null anoms- null anoms are already the best in every circumstance. The suggestion is to balance the null anoms so that there is a point for miners to seek out rare ores, while allowing consistent income to still be made at null anoms.




Goons bemoaning people about not knowing nullsec. Then claims a whole bunch of wrong stuff about highsec.

How is about you learn how respawn mechanics work and your figure out how to get belts to respawn properly. And no it's not this 'let rocks grow' crap. That is just ... goonish (otherwise isd will whine about not being respectfull).



no, the mechanics posted are spot on for the anoms (i.e. "grav sites"). He's not talking about regular system belts.


Fair enough, but everyone else is talking about it. Those small respawned roids happen in highsec too.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2014-12-23 18:35:56 UTC
This thread was lacking in GrrGoons anyways, thanks for bringing us up to par Cool
Kazekage Dono
Pertonas Development Inc
#225 - 2014-12-23 18:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazekage Dono
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
This thread was lacking in GrrGoons anyways, thanks for bringing us up to par Cool




I dunno goons on themselves aren't much to write home about, but the organisation behind it deserves admiration.

Aside from that the reason those belts don't respawn is because no one mines the belts in null anymore. Self fulfilling prophecy.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#226 - 2014-12-23 18:50:56 UTC
Kazekage Dono wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
This thread was lacking in GrrGoons anyways, thanks for bringing us up to par Cool




I dunno goons on themselves aren't much to write home about, but the organisation behind it deserves admiration.

Aside from that the reason those belts don't respawn is because no one mines the belts in null anymore. Self fulfilling prophecy.


You really have no idea what we're talking about, please stop while you're ahead.

Heh.
Kazekage Dono
Pertonas Development Inc
#227 - 2014-12-23 19:58:21 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Kazekage Dono wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
This thread was lacking in GrrGoons anyways, thanks for bringing us up to par Cool




I dunno goons on themselves aren't much to write home about, but the organisation behind it deserves admiration.

Aside from that the reason those belts don't respawn is because no one mines the belts in null anymore. Self fulfilling prophecy.


You really have no idea what we're talking about, please stop while you're ahead.

Heh.


Read the debunked part below.

eve wiki on belt respawn
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#228 - 2014-12-23 22:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You really have no idea what we're talking about<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Kazekage Dono wrote:
Read the debunked part below.


Ugh

Edit: let me make this more clear for you
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#229 - 2014-12-23 22:25:51 UTC
I give this thread three more posts before Nevyn Auscent comes in again and tries to talk about how mining in normal asteroid belts in null is a valid option and is the solution to the crisis.
Kazekage Dono
Pertonas Development Inc
#230 - 2014-12-24 11:41:46 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
I give this thread three more posts before Nevyn Auscent comes in again and tries to talk about how mining in normal asteroid belts in null is a valid option and is the solution to the crisis.



You talk about all this grrrr goons ... Maybe i'm detecting a little more grrr highsec miners Cool.

Looking at the gm quote, belts where never meant to be full on after every DT. You just want centralize everything to make it easy so you whine and moan for some biscuits. While the solution is decentralize. Next step is to temper tantrum on the floor like a 3 yo?

Somehow that reminds me allot of highsec miners who want to ban ganking ... you know biscuits. Ofcourse in your head you're so much better aren't you?


You where wrong, deal with the butthurt.
Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2014-12-24 20:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedutchman
The problem isn't with the market and it isn't with supply and demand. Having all the huge null fleets "mine something else" wont help either. The problem is with mining, with risk and reward, and with Sov null space.


1. Mining is too easy..... It's too passive, it's too dull, and it's too easy to multibox. Even with the current state of the market, with an orca boost, and mining one of the mex ores in high-sec. Your still only making about 20mil an hour if you can get your down time to 0.. Which is terrible compared to everything else in the game.

However, People still mine anyway.... Lots of them, all the time, because you don't even have to be playing eve. I can start up my hulk, fly to a belt, and start sucking-up ore while playing SSFIV and still make 15mil an hour. There are fleets of multi-boxed ships HUGE ones with 15+ ships that people run everyday.... Not because mining is useful, or valuable, but because it's literally passive isk gain. You can make money, and don't have to do anything.

I can mine while I clean my house, do the dishes, study, play dota. I can mine while i'm at work... Hell with a remote desktop app on my phone i could mine while driving..... Because I only have to be paying attention for about 3 seconds every 6 mins.

There should be NO activity in eve that you can do effectively with 15 ships at once. EVER. ISBOX or no.


If all mineral prices fell by 75% tomorrow..... It would have almost no impact on the amout of people who mine. Because as long as you can make money doing nothing, people are going to do it while they arn't doing anything else.



2. Sov null is too safe. The sheer amount of megacyte and zydrain flooding the market is proof enough of that. Your safer mining anoms in null than you are in a 1.0 system in high-sec while mining. Which is ludicrous in all sorts of ways.

however, that's a much larger and more difficult problem than the basic mechanics of mining.
Starbuck
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#232 - 2014-12-25 11:37:42 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
I disagree with the concept of artificial price fixing just to keep Arkanor the most valuable ore. Let the market do its thing. Why is it a problem that it is not always the most valuable ore?

The null-sec renters who go, "Ooh shiny Arkanor!" are currently over-supplying those minerals. But they are happy doing it. (Proof that they are happy: they haven't stopped!) Smarter miners can open up a spreadsheet and figure out what they should be mining today.

If CCP keeps fiddling with the mineral content of asteroids to keep the prices matching the alphabetical order, doesn't that take away the last little bit of thinking that miners need to do? Why make the game even more boring for them?



It is also worth nothing that just because it isn't the most valuable doesn't mean it isn't worth grabbing. Arkanor is still worth quite a bit of money. The market is just adjusting to a supply and demand problem. Mexallon is in huge demand where I live. Meanwhile my Zydrine, Megacyte, and Nox store over supplied.

I don't really see this as a huge problem.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#233 - 2014-12-26 19:17:51 UTC
Kazekage Dono wrote:

You talk about all this grrrr goons ... Maybe i'm detecting a little more grrr highsec miners Cool.

Looking at the gm quote, belts where never meant to be full on after every DT. You just want centralize everything to make it easy so you whine and moan for some biscuits. While the solution is decentralize. Next step is to temper tantrum on the floor like a 3 yo?

Somehow that reminds me allot of highsec miners who want to ban ganking ... you know biscuits. Ofcourse in your head you're so much better aren't you?


You where wrong, deal with the butthurt.


Roll

This guy is clueless

We're talking about null anomalies- the ones you get from industrial upgrades. No one actually consistently mines in static null asteroid belts.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2014-12-26 19:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Starbuck wrote:
It is also worth nothing that just because it isn't the most valuable doesn't mean it isn't worth grabbing. Arkanor is still worth quite a bit of money. The market is just adjusting to a supply and demand problem. Mexallon is in huge demand where I live. Meanwhile my Zydrine, Megacyte, and Nox store over supplied.

I don't really see this as a huge problem.


Arkonor is the second least valuable ore in the game, behind omber.

Just because one unit of Arkonor is worth "a lot of money" doesn't make it worth mining. What you aren't looking at is the size of the Arkonor rock and how long it takes you to mine one unit.

Zydrine and Megacyte are way oversupplied and will continue to be oversupplied until CCP makes a change. There are infinite sources of high end minerals in null anomalies that produce significantly more Zydrine and Megacyte than the game can handle.

As I've said multiple times before in this thread- if CCP wants to continue to push production outwards and in to null, they will need to change the nullsec ore anomalies to fix their mineral supply.

Otherwise, people like Kazekage Dono will continue to mine in high sec for us with literally no clue how nullsec works; and we will continue not mining and doing things that are not the worst income in the game.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2014-12-27 05:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
The way I see it you guys are just messed up in thinking that megacyte et al are the high end minerals. They are not. Trit and pyerite are the high end minerals. This will become glaringly obvious when the ISBixer fleets are banned next month. These minerals have been added to the ABCS ores and are present in null. High sec mining needs a boost as it lags behind mission running in ISK per hour and requires a POS now that the money is in compression. Frankly nullsec mining has never had considerably higher ISK per hour than high sec mining except for the Rorqual. The reason to mine in null is to save JF costs importing to null industry by mining locally and by using Rorquals for free compression and better boosts.

I did the math before Crius even. ABCS were never significantly greater ISK per hour in and of themselves.

Quit freaking out about megacyte. It's fine. The coming tritanium shortage should be on your minds.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#236 - 2014-12-27 12:42:45 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
The way I see it you guys are just messed up in thinking that megacyte et al are the high end minerals. They are not. Trit and pyerite are the high end minerals. This will become glaringly obvious when the ISBixer fleets are banned next month. These minerals have been added to the ABCS ores and are present in null. High sec mining needs a boost as it lags behind mission running in ISK per hour and requires a POS now that the money is in compression. Frankly nullsec mining has never had considerably higher ISK per hour than high sec mining except for the Rorqual. The reason to mine in null is to save JF costs importing to null industry by mining locally and by using Rorquals for free compression and better boosts.

I did the math before Crius even. ABCS were never significantly greater ISK per hour in and of themselves.

Quit freaking out about megacyte. It's fine. The coming tritanium shortage should be on your minds.


There is no shortage of any of them. The goal seems to be to have us all fly around in T1 frigates and blap each other for lulz until our eyes melt out. Even T1 cruisers, I will get bored of the brain mush PvP long before I run out of ships.

One of the core reasons we are seeing gluts in minerals is, nobody runs big fleets of big ships anymore. We need large manufacturing, new manufacturing. Titans, Capitals, Capital parts are all in storage now. Every system from here to kingdom come has an outpost. There is nothing left to build.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#237 - 2014-12-28 14:06:45 UTC
Re Loci reply: According to the Mittani blogsite there are supposedly a lot more Titans & Caps being destroyed post the changes. Not that I have much experience of it.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#238 - 2014-12-28 14:15:21 UTC
Zedutchman wrote:
The problem isn't with the market and it isn't with supply and demand. Having all the huge null fleets "mine something else" wont help either. The problem is with mining, with risk and reward, and with Sov null space.


1. Mining is too easy..... It's too passive, it's too dull, and it's too easy to multibox. Even with the current state of the market, with an orca boost, and mining one of the mex ores in high-sec. Your still only making about 20mil an hour if you can get your down time to 0.. Which is terrible compared to everything else in the game.

However, People still mine anyway.... Lots of them, all the time, because you don't even have to be playing eve. I can start up my hulk, fly to a belt, and start sucking-up ore while playing SSFIV and still make 15mil an hour. There are fleets of multi-boxed ships HUGE ones with 15+ ships that people run everyday.... Not because mining is useful, or valuable, but because it's literally passive isk gain. You can make money, and don't have to do anything.

I can mine while I clean my house, do the dishes, study, play dota. I can mine while i'm at work... Hell with a remote desktop app on my phone i could mine while driving..... Because I only have to be paying attention for about 3 seconds every 6 mins.

There should be NO activity in eve that you can do effectively with 15 ships at once. EVER. ISBOX or no.


If all mineral prices fell by 75% tomorrow..... It would have almost no impact on the amout of people who mine. Because as long as you can make money doing nothing, people are going to do it while they arn't doing anything else.



2. Sov null is too safe. The sheer amount of megacyte and zydrain flooding the market is proof enough of that. Your safer mining anoms in null than you are in a 1.0 system in high-sec while mining. Which is ludicrous in all sorts of ways.

however, that's a much larger and more difficult problem than the basic mechanics of mining.


I think most miners would say mining isn't broken and that it doesn't need fixing. There is some risk involved if you are not paying attention and it is one of lower ISK per hour activities but I think that is fair considering the skill reqs etc. I agree large 'AFK' mining fleets are a problem but they can be dealt with most of the time.

Regarding nullsec sovereignty additional changes are probably not that far away and by this time next year it will probably be a different kettle of fish.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#239 - 2014-12-28 16:53:33 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
The way I see it you guys are just messed up in thinking that megacyte et al are the high end minerals. They are not. Trit and pyerite are the high end minerals. This will become glaringly obvious when the ISBixer fleets are banned next month. These minerals have been added to the ABCS ores and are present in null. High sec mining needs a boost as it lags behind mission running in ISK per hour and requires a POS now that the money is in compression. Frankly nullsec mining has never had considerably higher ISK per hour than high sec mining except for the Rorqual. The reason to mine in null is to save JF costs importing to null industry by mining locally and by using Rorquals for free compression and better boosts.

I did the math before Crius even. ABCS were never significantly greater ISK per hour in and of themselves.

Quit freaking out about megacyte. It's fine. The coming tritanium shortage should be on your minds.


There is no shortage of any of them. The goal seems to be to have us all fly around in T1 frigates and blap each other for lulz until our eyes melt out. Even T1 cruisers, I will get bored of the brain mush PvP long before I run out of ships.

One of the core reasons we are seeing gluts in minerals is, nobody runs big fleets of big ships anymore. We need large manufacturing, new manufacturing. Titans, Capitals, Capital parts are all in storage now. Every system from here to kingdom come has an outpost. There is nothing left to build.



^ This.

Given Seagull's plans though ... perhaps we're in the lull before the next great war / expansion endeavour?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#240 - 2014-12-28 17:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Civ Kado
I like the points from both sides of the argument.

To be honest, I think the only way to settle this would be to hear CCP's case on why minerals do not seem to fall into the category of "the more risk you take, the higher the reward". if I had to speculate, I think it's pretty much what loci said, the goal is to have us pvp in frigates for the vast majority of times. an over abundance of mineral makes this possible because it keeps an abundant supply of cheap frigs and destroyers that even a mediocre alliance can afford to give them out for free at a moment's notice.

I could be wrong, but I think that's why minerals don't hold up to the scracity of other raw resources like say gases. Personally, I wish mineral/ores were held to the scarcity standard of gas clouds. On one side you have common sites which, while not the most profitable will still net you a decent income considering, and then on the other side you have ultra rare gases that easily surpass one hour of doing highsec incursion. The risk players take to mine these rare gases is very worth it because the reward is very much worth it.

it seems like reward was scrapped away in favor of an abundance of supply and giving the opportunity to destroy cheaply fitted frigates for hours on end.