These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High end mineral crisis

First post
Author
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#181 - 2014-12-08 03:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Skydell
I've never seen any suggestion on how to make mining 'more active' that was something that could be done in EVE without gutting the whole game like a fish.

I suppose in theory they could make a strip miner that holds PI built mining charges, PI built so as not to defeat the purpose of mining - crystals are pure nocxium, I suppose a charge could be pure Morphite as well, and have it so the strip gets huge cycle reduction but can't repeat. Forcing people to monitor their strips to make sure they are always active and reduce the biggest killjoy of low end mining, being the time required to do it. The charges could even be restricted to low end ore.
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services
CAStabouts
#182 - 2014-12-08 11:54:43 UTC
two miners are in a belt mining ore A. One miner says to the other "I can't beleive how much the price of ore A has dropped. Ore b is worth more then ore A now." Second miner looks at the first miner and says "ore B is worth more then ore A?"

"Yea, by a lot now. CCP needs to fix this immedialty, it's cutting into my profit!"

The second miner then truns off his strip tool on ore A, and then proceeds to mine ore B right next to it "Yea, CCP don't need to fix nothing, Im gonna do fine, you just keep on keeping on over there"

If the market is shifting, shift with it or die.
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2014-12-08 13:51:39 UTC
I am sitting on a mountain of "low value" minerals, let´s try to get as much as I can get of them while mining some other stuff and wait till my mountain turns from coal to diamonds because the market shifted again - said barely a miner ever?
Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2014-12-08 14:20:30 UTC
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
two miners are in a belt mining ore A. One miner says to the other "I can't beleive how much the price of ore A has dropped. Ore b is worth more then ore A now." Second miner looks at the first miner and says "ore B is worth more then ore A?"

"Yea, by a lot now. CCP needs to fix this immedialty, it's cutting into my profit!"

The second miner then truns off his strip tool on ore A, and then proceeds to mine ore B right next to it "Yea, CCP don't need to fix nothing, Im gonna do fine, you just keep on keeping on over there"

If the market is shifting, shift with it or die.



That would be true if Eve was a real sandbox and resources were equally distributed.....

The problem is that the game is designed so that everything in the game has it's rarity based on location.

However due to null-sec politics and anomaly mechanics you've now have a situation where what's supposed to be Ultra rare ores are being harvested almost non-stop by huge multi-boxed fleets with little or no harassment.

You've got insane amount of megacyte and mophite being mined to exhaustion every single day, so they'll respawn tomorrow.

There are currently 92 mil worth of sell orders for Mega up, but only 34 mil moved yesterday. To compare that to Trit where there are 8.4 bil sell orders up and 15.1 bil trit moved yesterday..... You can see there is WAY TO MUCH MEGA on the market and even more that people are just hording because the prices are so low.



Now you can say that the market will correct it self eventually.... which is true... but the problem is that the game is designed so that A,B,C ore is super ultra rare and that it's the pinnacle of what miners should be trying for, risking super dangerous space.... Not on AFK farm by fleets of 15 Rouq boosted hulks.


There are a lot of things that are to blame( ease of multiboxing, Sov null space, Mining Mechanics, Anomaly mechanics) but at the end of the day SOMETHING does need to be done. As currently one of the fundamental principles of the game( risk and reward) is just not true for one of the games core professions.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#185 - 2014-12-08 20:13:29 UTC
Zedutchman wrote:
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
two miners are in a belt mining ore A. One miner says to the other "I can't beleive how much the price of ore A has dropped. Ore b is worth more then ore A now." Second miner looks at the first miner and says "ore B is worth more then ore A?"

"Yea, by a lot now. CCP needs to fix this immedialty, it's cutting into my profit!"

The second miner then truns off his strip tool on ore A, and then proceeds to mine ore B right next to it "Yea, CCP don't need to fix nothing, Im gonna do fine, you just keep on keeping on over there"

If the market is shifting, shift with it or die.



That would be true if Eve was a real sandbox and resources were equally distributed.....

The problem is that the game is designed so that everything in the game has it's rarity based on location.

However due to null-sec politics and anomaly mechanics you've now have a situation where what's supposed to be Ultra rare ores are being harvested almost non-stop by huge multi-boxed fleets with little or no harassment.

You've got insane amount of megacyte and mophite being mined to exhaustion every single day, so they'll respawn tomorrow.

There are currently 92 mil worth of sell orders for Mega up, but only 34 mil moved yesterday. To compare that to Trit where there are 8.4 bil sell orders up and 15.1 bil trit moved yesterday..... You can see there is WAY TO MUCH MEGA on the market and even more that people are just hording because the prices are so low.

Now you can say that the market will correct it self eventually.... which is true... but the problem is that the game is designed so that A,B,C ore is super ultra rare and that it's the pinnacle of what miners should be trying for, risking super dangerous space.... Not on AFK farm by fleets of 15 Rouq boosted hulks.


There are a lot of things that are to blame( ease of multiboxing, Sov null space, Mining Mechanics, Anomaly mechanics) but at the end of the day SOMETHING does need to be done. As currently one of the fundamental principles of the game( risk and reward) is just not true for one of the games core professions.



Please stop calling ABC's super rare. They are in most null sec system and all wh systems. purple loot is super rare ABC's aren't
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2014-12-08 21:49:48 UTC
It's amusing the kinds of opinions you get out of these threads.

This isn't an argument about "oh no my isk per hour went down". The suggestions in here are related to the supply of minerals being extremely imbalanced, further exasperated by rental programs allowing miners to cycle ore anomalies- thus creating a GIGANTIC surplus of "high end" minerals.

It's laughable when people suggest to mine asteroid belts in null in their current form. I realize that high sec mines from belts, because you can literally afk and shoot rocks forever without ever worrying about getting blown up, except if you're the .01% of miners that are suicide ganked.

Price reflects supply- not the other way around. There is no logical way to inflate the price of high end minerals because there is an infinite supply via null anomalies.

If CCP wants to continue to support localized industry, then they need to change the supply. That is the bottom line. If they don't want to go that direction and are going to keep Jump Freighters at 10ly, then there is no real need to change because mining is one of the worst incomes in the game at the moment, and we can let renters/highsec folk take care of our mining.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2014-12-08 22:15:52 UTC
Let me put it this way:

Mining in asteroid belts in null will never happen because it takes so much micromanagement that you could do any other activity in null and make at least double the income.

Or daytrip into a wormhole and make 100mil/hr or more in a venture mining gas there as a newer player.

Mining in null only happens in anomalies because you can (could) multibox large numbers of miners in an anomaly without having to break lock every cycle on each ship. Even after the nerf come the 1st, people will still be able to multibox in anomalies because they can shoot one rock to completely fill 27.5k m3- even manually clicking through each miner. Mining in belts after the ISBoxer nerf takes even a harder hit because you won't be able to broadcast lock or trigger your lasers.

Thus, mining in any belts (high sec or null) is going to get considerably harder, while mining in null anomalies will only get marginally more annoying.

The imbalance is only going to get worse after the ISBoxer nerf.
Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2014-12-09 11:57:46 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:



Please stop calling ABC's super rare. They are in most null sec system and all wh systems. purple loot is super rare ABC's aren't



That's my point.... They are SUPPOSED to be super-rare..... and arn't.... at all.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#189 - 2014-12-09 12:17:05 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Let me put it this way:

Mining in asteroid belts in null will never happen because it takes so much micromanagement that you could do any other activity in null and make at least double the income.

Or daytrip into a wormhole and make 100mil/hr or more in a venture mining gas there as a newer player.

Mining in null only happens in anomalies because you can (could) multibox large numbers of miners in an anomaly without having to break lock every cycle on each ship. Even after the nerf come the 1st, people will still be able to multibox in anomalies because they can shoot one rock to completely fill 27.5k m3- even manually clicking through each miner. Mining in belts after the ISBoxer nerf takes even a harder hit because you won't be able to broadcast lock or trigger your lasers.

Thus, mining in any belts (high sec or null) is going to get considerably harder, while mining in null anomalies will only get marginally more annoying.

The imbalance is only going to get worse after the ISBoxer nerf.


Mining won't get any harder for guys like me that never used any of these programmes. Using my Orca/Hulk/Hulk set up will be exactly the same, when I have them all logged on anyway.

Mostly I mine for my Industry, and only when I get really low on minerals or POS fuel do I have my team logged on.

Mainly I mine solo, with just my main account online. Hopefully when 1st January hits Ore and Mineral prices will get a boost and then I may log the team more.

But then again I have never mined to plex, so maybe not.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#190 - 2014-12-09 15:16:54 UTC
Zedutchman wrote:
... but the problem is that the game is designed so that A,B,C ore is super ultra rare and that it's the pinnacle of what miners should be trying for



This is the ultimate fallacy of your argument. The one cool thing (maybe the only one) about mining is how closely tied to the market it is.

Miners should not be trying to reach a pinnacle for some specific ore like ABC ores. They should be mining whatever is the most profitable at that moment.

ie, if high ends are oversupplied and miners are not shifting their focus, continuing to flood the market with high ends, that isn't the games fault.
Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2014-12-09 16:14:16 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:



This is the ultimate fallacy of your argument. The one cool thing (maybe the only one) about mining is how closely tied to the market it is.

Miners should not be trying to reach a pinnacle for some specific ore like ABC ores. They should be mining whatever is the most profitable at that moment.

ie, if high ends are oversupplied and miners are not shifting their focus, continuing to flood the market with high ends, that isn't the games fault.


Again that WOULD be true if resources were distributed equally throughout the game world. However the game is designed so that.

High < Low < Null with WH's stuck somewhere in the middle of those.

Your income in any given activity is supposed to be tied directly to risk and difficulty of said activity. That is the most important precept of eve... That risk and reward go hand in hand.

Right now.... For mining. It doesn't.










Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#192 - 2014-12-09 16:50:35 UTC
Zedutchman wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:



This is the ultimate fallacy of your argument. The one cool thing (maybe the only one) about mining is how closely tied to the market it is.

Miners should not be trying to reach a pinnacle for some specific ore like ABC ores. They should be mining whatever is the most profitable at that moment.

ie, if high ends are oversupplied and miners are not shifting their focus, continuing to flood the market with high ends, that isn't the games fault.


Again that WOULD be true if resources were distributed equally throughout the game world. However the game is designed so that.

High < Low < Null with WH's stuck somewhere in the middle of those.

Your income in any given activity is supposed to be tied directly to risk and difficulty of said activity. That is the most important precept of eve... That risk and reward go hand in hand.

Right now.... For mining. It doesn't.

how doesn't it. in null all ores are available not just ABC. and its safe down there to mine. WH mining is hit or miss but its doable also without to much hassle (need to be able to set it up without to many connections in the wh)











Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#193 - 2014-12-09 16:52:28 UTC
Zedutchman wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:



This is the ultimate fallacy of your argument. The one cool thing (maybe the only one) about mining is how closely tied to the market it is.

Miners should not be trying to reach a pinnacle for some specific ore like ABC ores. They should be mining whatever is the most profitable at that moment.

ie, if high ends are oversupplied and miners are not shifting their focus, continuing to flood the market with high ends, that isn't the games fault.


Again that WOULD be true if resources were distributed equally throughout the game world. However the game is designed so that.

High < Low < Null with WH's stuck somewhere in the middle of those.

Your income in any given activity is supposed to be tied directly to risk and difficulty of said activity. That is the most important precept of eve... That risk and reward go hand in hand. Right now.... For mining. It doesn't.


how doesn't it. in null all ores are available not just ABC. and its safe down there to mine. WH mining is hit or miss but its doable also without to much hassle (need to be able to set it up without to many connections in the wh). I find my self more at ease in a backwater null system than high sec where I have to be suspicious of every person that enters local.
Awesome MILF
Doomheim
#194 - 2014-12-09 17:16:59 UTC
in my opinion its a natural phenomenon that within time all ores are worth about the same isk/hour as most miners look for the maximum profit per hour and depending on markets they put more efforts in one ore or the next one, thus eventually prices are ballanced and "high end" minerals are cheaper than they were meant to be.

So we have no high end or low end minerals, just "minerals" as it sounds.

I agree something must be done to estimulate null sec mining, as nowadays its just more profitable to stay in highsec for miners. Stupid feature...
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2014-12-09 19:20:29 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Zedutchman wrote:
... but the problem is that the game is designed so that A,B,C ore is super ultra rare and that it's the pinnacle of what miners should be trying for



This is the ultimate fallacy of your argument. The one cool thing (maybe the only one) about mining is how closely tied to the market it is.

Miners should not be trying to reach a pinnacle for some specific ore like ABC ores. They should be mining whatever is the most profitable at that moment.

ie, if high ends are oversupplied and miners are not shifting their focus, continuing to flood the market with high ends, that isn't the games fault.


This argument is so short sighted it's amusing. And wrong. Go read some of the previous posts if you want to know why.



Lady Rift wrote:
how doesn't it. in null all ores are available not just ABC. and its safe down there to mine. WH mining is hit or miss but its doable also without to much hassle (need to be able to set it up without to many connections in the wh). I find my self more at ease in a backwater null system than high sec where I have to be suspicious of every person that enters local.


You actually suggested mining in a WH. Hahahahahahaha

Okay, to be fair, gas mining in a WH is viable because you can take a solo venture and make 100m/hr.


Awesome MILF wrote:
I agree something must be done to estimulate null sec mining, as nowadays its just more profitable to stay in highsec for miners. Stupid feature...


I'm not even suggesting that they need to add anything to nullsec. I'm suggesting they REMOVE the majority of the m3 of croc/bist/ark/merc in null anoms. It would make sense that they expand the veld rocks. Ideally, Null anoms should be choc full of low ends with medium amounts of mid and small amounts of high ends. This way, null could locally source low ends and high ends from the space around them, provided they had people that wanted to mine. Imports would still need to happen when building supers, because those require a metric ton of low ends.

With this idea, the bulk of ark/bist/crok/merc would be in the static belts in null. Because of the ISBoxer nerfs and the way that static belts work, it becomes much more difficult for someone to multibox more than a few miners at a static belt. This means that "small time" miners with only a few accounts will have significantly more potential mining in the belts, while people still multiboxing large miners will find themselves locked in the anomalies.



To summarize the current problem for those that aren't following the entire thread- Null anomalies are currently top heavy with way too much high end ore. Mining in null anomalies nets more low end minerals than cherry picking existing null static belts. Cycling belts to get more low end minerals leads to a huge surplus of high end minerals, as reflected in current stockpiles and the abysmal price of high end minerals.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#196 - 2014-12-09 19:23:04 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Zedutchman wrote:
... but the problem is that the game is designed so that A,B,C ore is super ultra rare and that it's the pinnacle of what miners should be trying for



This is the ultimate fallacy of your argument. The one cool thing (maybe the only one) about mining is how closely tied to the market it is.

Miners should not be trying to reach a pinnacle for some specific ore like ABC ores. They should be mining whatever is the most profitable at that moment.

ie, if high ends are oversupplied and miners are not shifting their focus, continuing to flood the market with high ends, that isn't the games fault.


This argument is so short sighted it's amusing. And wrong. Go read some of the previous posts if you want to know why.



Lady Rift wrote:
how doesn't it. in null all ores are available not just ABC. and its safe down there to mine. WH mining is hit or miss but its doable also without to much hassle (need to be able to set it up without to many connections in the wh). I find my self more at ease in a backwater null system than high sec where I have to be suspicious of every person that enters local.


You actually suggested mining in a WH. Hahahahahahaha

Okay, to be fair, gas mining in a WH is viable because you can take a solo venture and make 100m/hr.


Awesome MILF wrote:
I agree something must be done to estimulate null sec mining, as nowadays its just more profitable to stay in highsec for miners. Stupid feature...


I'm not even suggesting that they need to add anything to nullsec. I'm suggesting they REMOVE the majority of the m3 of croc/bist/ark/merc in null anoms. It would make sense that they expand the veld rocks. Ideally, Null anoms should be choc full of low ends with medium amounts of mid and small amounts of high ends. This way, null could locally source low ends and high ends from the space around them, provided they had people that wanted to mine. Imports would still need to happen when building supers, because those require a metric ton of low ends.

With this idea, the bulk of ark/bist/crok/merc would be in the static belts in null. Because of the ISBoxer nerfs and the way that static belts work, it becomes much more difficult for someone to multibox more than a few miners at a static belt. This means that "small time" miners with only a few accounts will have significantly more potential mining in the belts, while people still multiboxing large miners will find themselves locked in the anomalies.



To summarize the current problem for those that aren't following the entire thread- Null anomalies are currently top heavy with way too much high end ore. Mining in null anomalies nets more low end minerals than cherry picking existing null static belts. Cycling belts to get more low end minerals leads to a huge surplus of high end minerals, as reflected in current stockpiles and the abysmal price of high end minerals.



Ive been mining in a wh for the last 4 days straight.
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#197 - 2014-12-10 19:00:27 UTC
Zedutchman wrote:
Again that WOULD be true if resources were distributed equally throughout the game world. However the game is designed so that.

High < Low < Null with WH's stuck somewhere in the middle of those.

Your income in any given activity is supposed to be tied directly to risk and difficulty of said activity. That is the most important precept of eve... That risk and reward go hand in hand.

Right now.... For mining. It doesn't.



That is and has always been a bogus argument. There are tons of areas in EVE PVE where the risk/reward simply doesn't hold true. Enough to disprove that EVE was 'designed' to be that way.

Miners blindly flooding the market with minerals are as bad as the market dude who complains he bought so many of Product A and then can't sell them because the supply got flooded and the prices tanked. The market people would tell him he needs to adapt to the market fluctuations. In the same way miners need to adapt to the market fluctuations.

There are low ends in all areas of space. Or a miner can simply relocate back to the safety of HS and mine away on the more profitable low ends until prices shift around again.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2014-12-10 19:30:20 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:

That is and has always been a bogus argument. There are tons of areas in EVE PVE where the risk/reward simply doesn't hold true. Enough to disprove that EVE was 'designed' to be that way.

Miners blindly flooding the market with minerals are as bad as the market dude who complains he bought so many of Product A and then can't sell them because the supply got flooded and the prices tanked. The market people would tell him he needs to adapt to the market fluctuations. In the same way miners need to adapt to the market fluctuations.

There are low ends in all areas of space. Or a miner can simply relocate back to the safety of HS and mine away on the more profitable low ends until prices shift around again.


:facepalm:

Thank you for not at all reading the thread.
Niskin
League of the Lost
#199 - 2014-12-10 21:28:04 UTC
This is a tricky issue because there are options, but as has been pointed out, once you are in null you expect a certain ISK/hour. That means that if ratting is more profitable than mining a specific ore, even if you need it, you will probably just rat. I don't like it, but I understand it.

I live in a wormhole with a null static, so I get the tourist view of null. Every day I could visit another region of space if I wanted. The other day I took a peek in Etherium Reach. The belt I looked at had two large Veldspar rocks, but they weren't very big and they were it for large rocks of that type. If this is even remotely average for Veldspar in a null belt then I get it. Even though I like some of the alternate ideas that have been presented, putting more large Veldspar rocks in asteroid belts in null would really help that situation.

Whether they retune the anomalies, or the belts, or both, something should be done. I've seen more large Veldspar rocks in the low end ore anomalies in my wormhole than I saw out there. And while I'd love to suggest that null miners jump into a wormhole and get their Veldspar there, that might not be feasible on a mass scale. If you only need a few hours of mining to get what you need then it could be viable, if we're talking days of farming that makes it less of an option. Plus if everybody in null is doing that, it could make it harder to find something to mine even in a wormhole.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2014-12-12 22:04:10 UTC
As of right now, Arkonor is the second least valuable ore in the game, only better than Omber.

Guess what kind of ore is heavily concentrated in Null ore anoms.