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High end mineral crisis

First post
Author
onions2
Overwhelming Synergy
#121 - 2014-09-16 07:29:25 UTC
Is it CCP's job to supply the correct 'roids for you to mine then ? Or just lower the materials in some of the rocks, just so people can make more money ? (or, more likely, start moaning because now there's not enough of it and it's too expensive)

Heaven forbid you actually have to make a plan for your materials, rather than just turning up, flip the belt and hope you didn't get too much stuff you don't want. You guys get stuff we need in High and we get stuff you need in low/null.

Good lord, whatever next ? how long before you want CCP to start supplying a free courier service to take your ores to be sold, or an ore counter on your strip miners so that you can turn it off at exactly the right second so you don't waste any valuable time.

Adjust to the market, or stop trying to sell the stuff that's already flooding the market. Not a difficult one to be honest.


“To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill”

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2014-09-16 13:57:05 UTC
onions2 wrote:
Is it CCP's job to supply the correct 'roids for you to mine then ? Or just lower the materials in some of the rocks, just so people can make more money ? (or, more likely, start moaning because now there's not enough of it and it's too expensive)

CCP's job is to properly balance their game. The inbalance caused by grav anomolies has been identified for years and it is reaching a critical point. Highsec wretches generally simply are angry that because they take such minor risks they deserve minor rewards, but mining has its risk/reward badly skewed and it's affecting the economy as a whole in a severely negative way.
onions2
Overwhelming Synergy
#123 - 2014-09-16 14:42:56 UTC
CCP can only do so much though - they can't stop people from mining, as much as they can't stop people from ganking. The only way it'll balance out is when the players sort it out.

“To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill”

Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#124 - 2014-09-16 15:10:35 UTC
Adapt or die, nullbears.

The crash in nullsec ores just shows how safe it is in nullsec.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2014-09-16 15:43:54 UTC
It's pretty hilarious to see these GrrGoon comments, especially considering we've already established in this thread that there is a supply issue.

The current supply of minerals is not balanced, and here's why:

Before Crius
-Mineral supply was still slightly imbalanced (too many high end minerals readily available). The "missing minerals" in null were supplied via compression of modules, which is why there wasn't an issue.

After Crius
-One source of minerals was reduced by 50% (modules)
-All ore in high sec now produces fewer minerals- meaning that the supply of low end minerals was reduced (because no longer able to get "100%" refine in high sec)
-Perfect refine in nullsec now gets slightly more minerals from ore than it did pre-Crius
-Changes to compression have reduced or eliminated the possibility to fill the gap to meet demands

You can see the effect of these supply issues in the price of zyd/mega. In nullsec, we don't have the option to just "mine something else"- suggesting to mine in the static belts is completely ignorant and is only being suggested by people that have never actually lived in nullsec.

Don't worry- mineral supply will be changed here in the next few months- I've already called the hundreds of Goons that work at CCP and they're working on a fix.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#126 - 2014-09-16 18:41:07 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
It's pretty hilarious to see these GrrGoon comments, especially considering we've already established in this thread that there is a supply issue.

The current supply of minerals is not balanced, and here's why:

Before Crius
-Mineral supply was still slightly imbalanced (too many high end minerals readily available). The "missing minerals" in null were supplied via compression of modules, which is why there wasn't an issue.

After Crius
-One source of minerals was reduced by 50% (modules)
-All ore in high sec now produces fewer minerals- meaning that the supply of low end minerals was reduced (because no longer able to get "100%" refine in high sec)
-Perfect refine in nullsec now gets slightly more minerals from ore than it did pre-Crius
-Changes to compression have reduced or eliminated the possibility to fill the gap to meet demands

You can see the effect of these supply issues in the price of zyd/mega. In nullsec, we don't have the option to just "mine something else"- suggesting to mine in the static belts is completely ignorant and is only being suggested by people that have never actually lived in nullsec.

Don't worry- mineral supply will be changed here in the next few months- I've already called the hundreds of Goons that work at CCP and they're working on a fix.

Except your post shows how delusional you are.
It's still possible to get the old 100% refine in highsec.
It's actually possible to get 104% refine in Highsec.
It's possible to get 108% refine in low sec.
It's possible to get 120% refine in Null sec.

All numbers compared to the old 100% obviously.
Hence the premium Null can pay for ores in high sec to move them. The market will & is adjusting to the change in demand.

And Null Sec DOES have the option to mine the static belts. You keep bleating it's not an option, yet when both static belts and anoms can be warped to instantly that is no longer an excuse. They are just as safe, if not even safer given most people would expect you to be in the anoms anyway.

The GrrGoons comments are laughing at you crying because you actually have to adapt for a change, rather than it being changed to perfectly suit you. You have already achieved the death of high sec industry with your refine changes, though that won't actually become evident till the mineral stockpiles in highsec die and the fact you can win any pricing war buying ore really takes hold, but it's apparently not enough for you yet. The game has to be even more perfect for your titan production.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2014-09-16 20:08:54 UTC
onions2 wrote:
CCP can only do so much though - they can't stop people from mining, as much as they can't stop people from ganking. The only way it'll balance out is when the players sort it out.

the issue is very specifically the existence of cyclable grav anoms and their ore composition, something they can very easily change
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2014-09-16 20:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
angry GrrGoons comments


I suppose I should have explicitly pointed out that I'm talking about current comparative outputs, because it isn't clear that we're talking about a mineral supply imbalance.

The new "100%" is in upgraded refineries in null. Comparatively the supply of low ends has dropped as opposed to high ends. Thank you for pointing out that we're now getting 20% more high end minerals than pre-Crius, further supporting the issue here that the current mineral supply is out of balance. Also, if you think the majority of highsec miners are refining their ore at "highsec 100%" after Crius, I'd bet you're sorely mistaken.

Please stop suggesting mining in static belts. That is the Worst Idea (tm) and won't ever actually happen. Again, if you had ever bothered to actually try it, you'd understand why. All rocks present in static belts are present in anoms; except the static belt rocks pop in 1-2 cycles, and cherry picking the mex heavy rocks would net less income than doing anything else in Eve. You might as well start suggesting that ore you mine is free, because that would be less ridiculous than suggesting to mine in static belts in null.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#129 - 2014-09-16 22:09:43 UTC
maybe if everyone in 0.0 stopped doing the profit-maximizing thing and started doing something else in concert then the problem would fix itself

that sounds like a good assumption to base game balance on, now back to mining in highsec, alone
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2014-09-16 22:15:19 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
that sounds like a good assumption to base game balance on, now back to mining in highsec, alone


Why mine alone in highsec when nullsec belts are as good or better than highsec belts? Roll
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#131 - 2014-09-17 00:30:46 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:


The new "100%" is in upgraded refineries in null. Comparatively the supply of low ends has dropped as opposed to high ends. Thank you for pointing out that we're now getting 20% more high end minerals than pre-Crius, further supporting the issue here that the current mineral supply is out of balance. Also, if you think the majority of highsec miners are refining their ore at "highsec 100%" after Crius, I'd bet you're sorely mistaken.

Please stop suggesting mining in static belts. That is the Worst Idea (tm) and won't ever actually happen. Again, if you had ever bothered to actually try it, you'd understand why. All rocks present in static belts are present in anoms; except the static belt rocks pop in 1-2 cycles, and cherry picking the mex heavy rocks would net less income than doing anything else in Eve. You might as well start suggesting that ore you mine is free, because that would be less ridiculous than suggesting to mine in static belts in null.

Other than the fact you are importing compressed ore now. So you are actually getting more low ends also from your imports for the same isk.
And the fact that cherry picking the static belts would not net less income, for the exact reason you are complaining. You have glutted the high end market to the point they are worth less than a lot of those 'worthless rocks' you could cherry pick from your static belts, meaning you would make more income cherry picking those static belts.

It's simple maths, you simply don't want to change how you do things.
Electrified Circuits
Predator Ewoks
#132 - 2014-09-17 03:39:01 UTC
The point i was trying to make which i think you are all going way off the mark on is that we are talking about mining in a null security space where you are very vulnerable to attack.

There are systems and ores in place to pay this venture well for good reason and it isn't working currently so its not going as planned is it now? get it into the brain boys
ElSuerte Diego
Los Perros Hermanos
#133 - 2014-09-17 04:43:51 UTC
There is lots of mexallon and below in low sec... Might be a better idea to figure out a way CCP and players can make mining viable in low sec rather then mess with roid composition again.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#134 - 2014-09-17 05:45:13 UTC
Electrified Circuits wrote:
The point i was trying to make which i think you are all going way off the mark on is that we are talking about mining in a null security space where you are very vulnerable to attack.

There are systems and ores in place to pay this venture well for good reason and it isn't working currently so its not going as planned is it now? get it into the brain boys

So you are vulnerable to attack so can't mine yet have mined so many high ends the market has crashed...
Sorry. Not buying it. Especially with the other posts in the thread.

This is not a game design issue. This is null sec being unable to adapt and not having made most industrialists welcome in null.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2014-09-17 15:15:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And the fact that cherry picking the static belts would not net less income


Please continue to tell us about mining in null belts, where you have literally zero experience and are completely incorrect. Roll

Cherry picking rocks that expire in one or two cycles leads to spending considerable more time moving and re positioning than actually mining.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#136 - 2014-09-17 15:26:46 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Electrified Circuits wrote:
The point i was trying to make which i think you are all going way off the mark on is that we are talking about mining in a null security space where you are very vulnerable to attack.

There are systems and ores in place to pay this venture well for good reason and it isn't working currently so its not going as planned is it now? get it into the brain boys

So you are vulnerable to attack so can't mine yet have mined so many high ends the market has crashed...
Sorry. Not buying it. Especially with the other posts in the thread.

This is not a game design issue. This is null sec being unable to adapt and not having made most industrialists welcome in null.

we are closing in on producing more in 2r-crw than is made in jita

tell us more about industrialists in null, highsec peasant
Casius Omega
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#137 - 2014-11-12 20:13:30 UTC
the forever war

"grabs some popcorn"
Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#138 - 2014-11-13 20:14:26 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And the fact that cherry picking the static belts would not net less income


Please continue to tell us about mining in null belts, where you have literally zero experience and are completely incorrect. Roll

Cherry picking rocks that expire in one or two cycles leads to spending considerable more time moving and re positioning than actually mining.



This is a general issue in EVE, it impacts all security levels.

I read your other replies and bring up quite a few good points. (I know, I'm breaking the GrrGoons doctrine bad me)

Null belts, like HS belts don't hold enough large rocks to cherry pick. Even Veld in .8 you can melt the big ones in no time at all but I seldom do. Like Null miners, I establish a session time and mine for that time. Even though I need Pyrite and Trit more than anything else, if I see anoms in system I go mine them because I know the rocks are bigger and will fill the Ore hold.

Maybe the easy out solution here is to throw us some Veld anoms or add more of those 100K rocks to the belt. And when I say more I mean A LOT more. Even that, I don't know if it will help.

My mining potential is 2 Proc and a Mackinaw. Even if the Dense Veld is there, the 2 Proc are 3 load an hr, the Macki is 2. 1.5 mill Veld an hour, 3 mill for a 2 hr session. That's 9 mill Trit roughly. Anyone who manufactures hulls knows, 9 mill trit is nothing.

tl:dr I spend more time mining Trit than any other mineral, many other minerals combined and it's depressing.
SpaceSaft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2014-11-14 10:05:40 UTC
The issue as I see it right now has several layers:

Risk vs. Reward Balancing (RR balancing)

High vs. Null Balancing (HN balancing) which isn't the same as the above even though some might be inclined to pretend so

Also entitlement issues, ISboxing are probably a topic but nothing ccp can or will want to change for obvious reasons.

Why am I even posting? I'm trying to do T1 subcapital industry in nullsec. The problem is that I can't get my hands on minerals in a sensible way. Common minerals more so than less common minerals for obvious reasons. I can't pay people to mine because I'd have to pay them on the order of their rat bounty tics, which is everything from 5 to multiple hundreds of millions of isk every 20 minutes. I can't do that, not because I don't have the money but because the local market gets valued against jita, which means that for my products I can only ask something on the order of 10% to 50% more than I'd pay in jita.

I can wait for wormholes, fill my industrial ships with minerals and haul them in but that's unreliable and shouldn't be necessary from a gameplay design perspective. Either there should be a progression to null or not. The incentive should be to do the mining in null so I and my corp have more buddies to play with.

The basic idea of the security level system was "higher risk, higher reward". It's very easy to spot in exploration, ratting and moon mining, reactions and PI. Which is contrary to the idea of a global market. eve-central and Jita have become the standard that everything else gets valued against. Everything else would be stupid. On the other hand demand in less secure systems is a lot lower than in highsec because reaction chains, component and T2 production are so tedious and difficult that setting them up is hard, so hard that people rather do it in highsec where they usually don't have to defend their POSes or are perfectly safe in stations.

So on the one hand demand for products is high, prices get valued against jita so that they're low compared to the risk of shipping. On the other hand mining is barely more profitable in null than in highsec even with all boosts, especially compared to the other professions. Rewards scale multiple factors of magnitude from high to null in other professions. Even rorqual boosts and maximum skills get you 2 or 3 times the ore at most. Even if it were a factor of 5, it'd still be low compared to exploration or PI or moon mining factors.

This is the issue we can talk about: (Mining vs. everything else in highsec) vs. (Mining vs. everything else in nullsec)

I'll just assign somewhat guessed factors to these.

Let's say:

Mining in Highsec (MH) = 1

Mining in Nullsec (MN) = 5

Everything else in Highsec (EH) = 3

Everything else in Nullsec (EN) = 20

We arrive at the issue of balancing

(MH/EH) / (MN/EN) which would be (1/3) / (5/20)

So we can arrive at an evaluation of the situation that goes somewhat like "Yes nullsec mining is more profitable than highsec mining but it's still not worth to do it." .

NOW we can talk about whether this relation is wrong or whether my factors should be adjusted.

The last thing that has to be adressed when one talks about nullsec mining is hauler spawns in asteroid belts. For those in highsec: in nullsec you can find very rarely NPC haulers that have comparatively insane amounts of minerals in them. On the scale of "stuff miners in null need multiple days or a week to mine".

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Belt_rat_spawns#Hauler_spawns

It says in the wiki that more common minerals are more common to spawn, which means right now that people who don't even have any mining skills could easily rival the best miners if they're a little lucky.




tl;dr: What I would like to see:

  • removal of hauler spawns, because they distort the market unfairly for miners. (Balancing of MN vs. EN)

  • changing of belts and anomalies to provide exclusively certain kinds of ore, increasing choice and removing the necessity to mine crap ores to make belts respawn. Only this would enable the market to fix the issue. Right now nullsec has to mine everything regardless if they want to or not, this also distorts the market because it makes miners oversupply even ores and minerals that aren't even in demand. ( Increasing the options for the market to balance itself )

  • "Crystalized" minerals belt anomalies that provide a similar scaling factor (x10 or x20 or something) to the scaling of exploration or ratting sites. (Balancing of MH vs. MN with rewards for mining in sov holding areas)



  • So what do you think...
    SJ Astralana
    Syncore
    #140 - 2014-11-14 12:19:30 UTC
    SpaceSaft wrote:

    I can only ask something on the order of 10% to 50% more than I'd pay in jita.


    Bollocks.

    I cut my teeth in 0.0 when you had to go to NPC null to buy insurance, and hauler spawns were a gift from God, and I seeded 2-rsc7 (50+ jumps from HS) with every fitted battleship and every t2 component in the game. I had to haul highs out and compressed lows back in in a ******* HAULER.

    Costs are costs. Whether jumping in hulls from highsec, or jumping in compressed ores to even out supplies, a fitted hull costs what it costs. I told off many an alliance tard who insisted on Jita + x%, and so can you.

    Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager