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High end mineral crisis

First post
Author
SpaceSaft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-11-14 14:07:38 UTC
Fair enough. I'm not sure if my pricing is the issue with null sec ore though.
Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2014-11-16 22:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedutchman
onions2 wrote:


or an ore counter on your strip miners so that you can turn it off at exactly the right second so you don't waste any valuable time.





personally I don't see any reason NOT to have one of those.....

Your telling me that a civilization with tech so advanced they can create a Hybrid Mining laser/tractor beam that can harvest a CUBIC KILOMETER of ore in less than 2 mins at a distance of 15 KM. Can't make a heads up display that can do simple division?


Hell I have one of those now.... IN MY F-ing CAR, and if i tell it how much i paid for the gas, it'll even tell me how much i'm spending as i drive. Yet , i can't get one in my pretend ultra advanced space ship......




REALLY CCP..... Just REALLY


logistics is another matter all together, but i'm just talking about a UI mod that I could code in about 10 mins... And I'm the worst programmer I know.


When current HUD tech is better than what your given in a Sci-FI game... Your game is getting too damn old.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#143 - 2014-11-16 22:56:53 UTC
1000 m3 of ore isn't a cubic kilometer.

A cubic kilometer is a cube, 1000m x 1000m x 1000m. Or a billion m3.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#144 - 2014-11-16 23:10:08 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
1000 m3 of ore isn't a cubic kilometer.


1 m3 = 1 m x 1 m x 1 m
1000 m3 = 10 m x 10m x 10 m = 1 dam3

"Deca" is the only two-letter SI unit prefix.

The more you know...

Kestrix
Nascent Omega
Pirate Lords of War
#145 - 2014-11-17 17:39:37 UTC
This is what happens when you have unlimited resources in a game, people can dump huge amounts on the market and crash it.

Doddy
Excidium.
#146 - 2014-11-17 18:02:39 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Welcome to the free market.

People have over supplied the market for the highends, and undersupplied the lowends.

So the lowends are worth more than you'd have thought they were.


Supply and demand has far less effect than CCP setting the mineral amounts for things. CCP have continually pushed up the value of low end minerals and pushed down the value of high ends since release through either changing mineral amounts or creating new things with the amounts out of whack.

Truth is ccp has either been incompetent in this regard for 10 years or it is deliberate policy. Either way pointing it out in this forum is perfectly valid.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2014-11-17 19:34:08 UTC
There is a huge surplus of high end minerals from nullsec ore anomalies. The null ore anomalies are extremely top heavy and are short on low ends. Because there are tons of miners in null stripping ore anomalies, this imbalance in high end minerals is reflected in the market.

At this point in time, Omber is the least valuable ore followed by Spod/Arkonor.

It's pretty clear that CCP doesn't understand that this imbalance is an actual issue stemming from ore anomalies, despite repetitive attempts to have them fix it.

Let's see how long we can keep high end minerals in the gutter before CCP realizes they need to fix ore anomalies.

Fix:
-Reduce volume of high end ore in null anoms
-increase volume of low end ore in null anoms

or

-change sites to only spawn one or two types of ore at most
-sites spawn randomly and upon being mined out, spawns a new site of a random type
-site odds are based on a balanced distribution of ore rather than being top heavy
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#148 - 2014-11-17 22:55:51 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:

Hisec mining is the best ISK/hr mining gig there is, especially with the recent changes to POS anchoring (no more standings requirements) and the introduction of the compression array (you can haul in a Miasmos instead of needing a freighter). Veldspar is still the best ISK/hr ore to mine, and it's abundant all over hisec space.


People keep saying that hisec mining is the best ISK/hr and that veldspar is the most profitable. Have any of you actually done the math? Every other ore except omber is more valuable than veldspar. If you're not a bad, you should park at a belt and just strip everything within range (except omber) for the most actual isk gained per played hour.

If you have a 100% perfect Hulk- all V's, t2 drones with 100% uptime, a 100% max orca booster and a hauler, you're making roughly 45 mil an hour mining pyroxeres (+10-20% if you sell compressed version). With that same hulk, veldspar is making roughly 36 mil an hour.

Just because "there is more" veldspar doesn't mean that it's more isk/hour- if you're cherry picking the veld and leaving everything else, you need to learn some math.


GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
The CFC doesn't mine because it is full of whiners who only want to shoot stuff by pressing F1 mindlessly. Instead of solving their own problem by recruiting miners and industrialists from high sec, they come to the forums and cry to CCP about changing the game to work around their lack of ability.


If only there were an in game mechanic to see the mining volume within a given system...hmmm


Check your maths. Plagioclase is at approx. 26 mill p/h. Veldspar is at approx. 25 mill p/h. Scordite is at approx. 19 mill p/h. So mining Veldspar in high sec is currently a good choice. For a miner.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Hippinse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2014-11-18 01:44:45 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
It's pretty clear that CCP doesn't understand that this imbalance is an actual issue stemming from ore anomalies, despite repetitive attempts to have them fix it.


Unless the imbalance is intended to regulate the upper end of efficiency that CCP has in mind for null.

Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2014-11-22 14:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedutchman
Doddy wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Welcome to the free market.

People have over supplied the market for the highends, and under-supplied the lowends.

So the lowends are worth more than you'd have thought they were.


Supply and demand has far less effect than CCP setting the mineral amounts for things. CCP have continually pushed up the value of low end minerals and pushed down the value of high ends since release through either changing mineral amounts or creating new things with the amounts out of whack.

Truth is ccp has either been incompetent in this regard for 10 years or it is deliberate policy. Either way pointing it out in this forum is perfectly valid.


Yes and no.....

On one hand yes it is CCP's problem, as the null-sec grav belts have caused an unintended market flux. They are great ways to get tons of top mats, and tons of low-low mats,but leave a gap in the middle.... So the highend-high-sec ores.... Kernite.... Pyro..... Plag..... Anything with MEX in it are HUGE right now. and everything else is in the tank....

Second issue.... Code's war on high sec is driving down supply even further on those ores, while the current state of 0.0 politics is making it very easy to mine in what is supposed to be "extremely dangerous" space.



Now eventually this will fix itself.... As eventually the prices for high-sec ores would cause the 0.0 guys to give up on the anoms and just mine the static belts for MEX, until the prices right themselves.... However A change like that takes a great deal more time than the market situation that drives it.

it takes days and weeks to feel and impact at the market level... However changing the ways people play a game is likely to take a great deal more time.
Shinya Shazih
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2014-11-22 20:02:00 UTC
Pyroxeres has the most refine-able units per m3, while Hemorphite has more units per refine batch it has a larger volume per unit than Pyroxeres and therefore a lower fraction per m3 than Pyroxeres . Basically you can fit more refine batches in a given volume with Pyroxeres and get more per given volume than the ore that has the most when you refine on a per batch basis.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2014-11-26 22:24:58 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
There is a huge surplus of high end minerals from nullsec ore anomalies. The null ore anomalies are extremely top heavy and are short on low ends. Because there are tons of miners in null stripping ore anomalies, this imbalance in high end minerals is reflected in the market.

At this point in time, Omber is the least valuable ore followed by Spod/Arkonor.

It's pretty clear that CCP doesn't understand that this imbalance is an actual issue stemming from ore anomalies, despite repetitive attempts to have them fix it.

Let's see how long we can keep high end minerals in the gutter before CCP realizes they need to fix ore anomalies.

Fix:
-Reduce volume of high end ore in null anoms
-increase volume of low end ore in null anoms

or

-change sites to only spawn one or two types of ore at most
-sites spawn randomly and upon being mined out, spawns a new site of a random type
-site odds are based on a balanced distribution of ore rather than being top heavy


Mineral imbalance in null is still a very big issue and nullsec industry will never be prevalent as CCP wants it to be unless this is fixed.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#153 - 2014-11-26 23:33:01 UTC
I build things in nullsec. I try and mine my own minerals for that building, although I often find myself buying locally to supplement my meagre mining capabilities.

Paradoxically (or so it seems to me at least) I find myself belt-mining veldspar, scordite, and plagioclase much more that their high-end counterparts in the anoms. Some anoms have decent plagioclase content so I also try and grab that while it’s still there. I have billions of isk worth of morphite etc sitting on the hangar floor and am always running out of tritanium, mexallon, and pyrite in my building. With the recent jump changes it’s majorly PITA to import minerals from hisec, even though I live in a very good region for that purpose.

I see this as just a part of the changing environment of eve and will keep on trying to adapt and adjust to whatever is thrown my way … except for [TRI] which I will endeavour to kill.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Hippinse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2014-11-26 23:42:00 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Mineral imbalance in null is still a very big issue and nullsec industry will never be prevalent as CCP wants it to be unless this is fixed.


Or, perhaps, CCP feels that it should not be easy to build infinity dreads/supers/titans. Increased costs, having to use multiple trade hubs (eg, compare compressed pyro prices betwee Jita and Amarr today) rather than just the most convenient, etc., might be what keeps this equation balanced in a way that doesn't spiral out of control.

I'm not saying that this doesn't suck for those confronting the problem, but it seems from my (possibly ignorant) point of view that it sucks in a way that resembles diminishing returns. (The 'nth' ship may cost a lot more than the first.)

Takashi Jin
Cryogenic Consultancy
#155 - 2014-11-29 21:45:41 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
So im sure lots of you have noticed how the 2 highest end minerals are next to worthless. Ark is on the bottom of the list and bist is in the middle.

Something needs to be done as the rarest ores arnt worth **** anymore. Nocx is worth more than zydrine.

What are some ideas on what to do?

I had a personal suggestion of trippling the zydrine and mega amount used in capital components. Mind you im a big builder of capitals so this would effect me in production, but it would also make nullsec ore worth somthing again.

This is opportunity not crisis. Think about how much more cheaply things can be made currently.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#156 - 2014-12-01 02:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rapscallion Jones
Zifrian wrote:
If all that mattered was market forces, then all processing skills would have the same base training time. Furthermore, right in the descriptions of the ores for ABC it talks about their rarity, the same with Mercoxit. Finally, the invention costs and times for making ABC crystals also do not conform to equal market forces as they take longer to produce than veld, scord, etc. The system isn't reflecting how CCP envisioned it and it doesn't seem like "rebalancing" is having the intended effect.


Paraphrased, "because all job skills require the same level of training to master..." What planet do you hail from!?!?! Market forces and training times are apples and ducks.

Quit mining the high ends and wait for the market correct itself. So you trained a skill that isn't paying for itself at the moment, just give it some time and that will change, its the seesaw of market based economies.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#157 - 2014-12-01 03:45:20 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Welcome to the free market.

People have over supplied the market for the highends, and undersupplied the lowends.

So the lowends are worth more than you'd have thought they were.

But the skill system does not reflect free markets - it reflects a clear hierarchy of ore values determined by CCP. You can't claim free markets if all things are not generally equal and while EVE has a great market, much of it is centrally controlled by CCP's overall design decisions.

If all that mattered was market forces, then all processing skills would have the same base training time. Furthermore, right in the descriptions of the ores for ABC it talks about their rarity, the same with Mercoxit. Finally, the invention costs and times for making ABC crystals also do not conform to equal market forces as they take longer to produce than veld, scord, etc. The system isn't reflecting how CCP envisioned it and it doesn't seem like "rebalancing" is having the intended effect.

Perhaps a better system would be to set training times equal (Rank 3), allow all ores to spawn in all systems, and scale all ore spawn sizes to to increase from High to Low to Null sec. So nullsec would have the best ore access but because of sov bills and the cost of living in null, it fits greater risk = greater reward. Also, this way markets can determine the best ore to mine based on its refining rates instead of constantly mucking with the system to achieve some "balance" that players will mess up anyway.

I'm sure there are other ideas out there and I know people who mine in highsec will hate the idea that "null gets buffed again" but I think we can all agree something should be done.


But null sec isn't the most dangerous place to mine. That would be low sec. If anything should get a buff its low sec mining, not null sec.
G'host Warrot
Doomheim
#158 - 2014-12-01 04:56:09 UTC
Low Sec Mining seems to be pretty atm for me.
We have all we need:Hemo, Hed and Anoms with Spouds and Crokite.

I cant even understand, why all guys are crying that High End Mins are such Low.
Afaik u dont need to mine Arkonor etc. u could just move back to HS and mine the low ores...
Thats freedom and adapt or die.

Anyway, I could believe next year we will see a massive shortage...

Greetings
Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-12-02 13:32:07 UTC
I don't think the shortage is going to be massive..... Although i DO Think we'll see a spike when the some of the IS boxer fleets are no more. Although those are more likely to effect ice prices than Ore prices... As Ore fleets take more microing anyway... So the change is less likely to chase them off.

I don't expect any more than 10% though(after the dust settles) More likely to see a price drop immediately afterwards from over-speculation.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2014-12-02 22:35:21 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
There is a huge surplus of high end minerals from nullsec ore anomalies. The null ore anomalies are extremely top heavy and are short on low ends. Because there are tons of miners in null stripping ore anomalies, this imbalance in high end minerals is reflected in the market.

At this point in time, Omber is the least valuable ore followed by Spod/Arkonor.

It's pretty clear that CCP doesn't understand that this imbalance is an actual issue stemming from ore anomalies, despite repetitive attempts to have them fix it.

Let's see how long we can keep high end minerals in the gutter before CCP realizes they need to fix ore anomalies.

Fix:
-Reduce volume of high end ore in null anoms
-increase volume of low end ore in null anoms

or

-change sites to only spawn one or two types of ore at most
-sites spawn randomly and upon being mined out, spawns a new site of a random type
-site odds are based on a balanced distribution of ore rather than being top heavy


Mineral imbalance in null is still a very big issue and nullsec industry will never be prevalent as CCP wants it to be unless this is fixed.



This is still not fixed.

Nerfing the ability for people to multibox will not help the vast mineral imbalance in null anomalies, and will only make the imbalance worse in terms of pricing. The relative high end mineral imbalance will continue to grow as multiboxing high sec miners are supplying less low end minerals.