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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2941 - 2014-09-01 16:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Benny Ohu wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And one need not haul himself to be part of the discussion vis-a-vis hauling. i'm active in the anti gank channels, I try to help gank victims escape, I discuss fitting with haulers, I carefully follow killboard to see where haulers are going down and how they are fitted, I follow gank intel to see who is ganking them, and participate in many other directly relevant activities, giving me direct experience on the matter involved. So no, you absurd claim that my information is "hearsay" is, once again, completely false.

you'll have no trouble presenting your substantiated information regarding hauling profitability then, friend

this is your opportunity to prove ganking is so out of control that hauling is no longer a viably profitable career
This. With graphs, it has to have graphs. Eve players love graphs (we do, seriously, ask any Dev).

A man with his obvious conviction, demonstrated logical thinking, experience and knowledge of game mechanics, should be able to do it no sweat.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Solecist Project
#2942 - 2014-09-01 16:40:51 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Personally I think anyone with -5 sec status or below should draw faction police within 5 seconds, forcing them to go to low/null and raise their sec status before operating in empire.
Then yours truly ...
... me ...
... would personally teach everyone that the facpo is no issue in the first place. (:

The most fun I ever had as -10 was in 1.0 ....
... warpwarpwarpwarpwarpwarpwarpwarpwarp ..................

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2943 - 2014-09-01 16:41:13 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
But you can get more total tank than before, and still have a lot of cargo capacity
That doesn't make it a buff, you know. Or are you saying that if we, say, decreased CONCORD response time to a universal 1 second, but gave them a damage output of 100 DPS, it would constitute a CONCORD buff?

Just because you stare yourself blind on a single (not particularly important) stat does not mean that an increase in that single stat constitutes a buff — it just means you're staring yourself blind and ignoring the bigger picture.

Quote:
which is what the freighter pilots wanted
No, it really wasn't, which is why many of us tried to explain the inevitable outcome for years whenever some numbskull brought it up.

Quote:
Yet another example of CCP analyzing a situation and responding appropriately).
If by that you mean that they saw people whining about freigthers being weak, and responded by making them weaker just out of spite, then yes, they did indeed respond appropriately. It's not the kind of mischievous response most people except from their whines though…
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#2944 - 2014-09-01 16:41:22 UTC
what I find fascinating here is the will of knowledgeable posters to argue with someone who doesn't even show signs of the input reaching his braincells
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2945 - 2014-09-01 16:42:46 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
what I find fascinating here is the will of knowledgeable posters to argue with someone who doesn't even show signs of the input reaching his braincells


For me its a kind of OCD

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Solecist Project
#2946 - 2014-09-01 16:47:34 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
what I find fascinating here is the will of knowledgeable posters to argue with someone who doesn't even show signs of the input reaching his braincells
I sadly can only Like your post once.
I find this quite flabbergasting myself.

It's enough to point it out once ...
... and if someone refuses ...
... he should be publicly shunned.


Everything else just let's them stay around.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2947 - 2014-09-01 16:49:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
what I find fascinating here is the will of knowledgeable posters to argue with someone who doesn't even show signs of the input reaching his braincells


For me its a kind of OCD


Thing is, you can tell you're actually getting through to them when they start reaching for the the really lousy arguments, contradicting themselves, or misrepresenting the most obvious facts. At first, they just start out with an established belief. Then when you show them why they're wrong, the denial and cognitive dissonance kicks in, and they panic and just start arguing for its own sake, even though they know they're wrong. That's why I do it, because each post drives the points they don't want to hear home.

And even if their denial is of the kind where they are lying to themselves and unreachable, the least we can do is give those that might peruse the thread in Google searches while they are learning the game something to think about.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2948 - 2014-09-01 16:51:48 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
what I find fascinating here is the will of knowledgeable posters to argue with someone who doesn't even show signs of the input reaching his braincells


For me its a kind of OCD



For some people it is a kind of delusion. They don't like something so they beleive it's 'broken' and 'someone' needs to 'fix it'. The multitude of people telling them that it's stupid are then relegated to 'special interest' of 'fanboi' status so that the dissenter can mentally dismiss the avalanche of reason bething thrown at them lol. That's why everyone who tells Dinsdale he's crazy is automatically assumed to be an RMTing Cartel propagandist lol.

Ultimately, it's fruitless to argue against such people because they are incapable of learning, BUT if you don't argue with them it seems like their self serving and weak minded lies are the truth lol.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2949 - 2014-09-01 16:52:28 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
what I find fascinating here is the will of knowledgeable posters to argue with someone who doesn't even show signs of the input reaching his braincells
Gotta catch 'em all.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2950 - 2014-09-01 16:54:41 UTC
I just wish when they finally realise the futility of their view, they would concede like adults.

I am the first to admit when I have been proven wrong.

Therefore I am the most grown-up of all a'yalls

neener neener neener

Im also the least competitive person in the room by a MILE

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Solecist Project
#2951 - 2014-09-01 16:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Ramona McCandless wrote:
I am the first to admit when I have been proven wrong.
But ... you're wrong!



(meta post)


Also, as I remember right now ...

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Solecist ... is an aquired taste.
I really liked that one. (:

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2952 - 2014-09-01 16:57:44 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
I am the first to admit when I have been proven wrong.
But ... you're wrong!
(meta post)
Also, as I remember right now ...
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Solecist ... is an aquired taste.
I really liked that one. (:



Never not like Solecist

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2953 - 2014-09-01 16:59:08 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Thing is, you can tell you're actually getting through to them when they start reaching for the the really lousy arguments, contradicting themselves, or misrepresenting the most obvious facts. At first, they just start out with an established belief. Then when you show them why they're wrong, the denial and cognitive dissonance kicks in, and they panic and just start arguing for its own sake, even though they know they're wrong. That's why I do it, because each post drives the points they don't want to hear home.

And even if their denial is of the kind where they are lying to themselves and unreachable, the least we can do is give those that might peruse the thread in Google searches while they are learning the game something to think about.

There's also the added benefit of the “stop agreeing with me”-effect. People who come across the thread and who (initially) may share the view get to see what kind of absurd position it ultimately leads to and how silly they'll end up looking by holding onto it. So they start to distance themselves from the stance and from the person who tries to argue in favour of it.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Ultimately, it's fruitless to argue against such people because they are incapable of learning, BUT if you don't argue with them it seems like their self serving and weak minded lies are the truth lol.

It's basically Poe's Law in action. For every troll who just says stupid things for the sake of saying stupid things, there are a dozen people who genuinely believe the same thing. Arguing with the troll or with the one incapable of learning means you're arguing with the genuine believers by proxy.

Ultimately, almost every troll is worth responding to as if they were authentic.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2954 - 2014-09-01 17:01:25 UTC
I think momentum has something to do with it too. I've always found that if I get in at the start of a... discussion, that I can post for pages and pages and pages without even noticing the time pass, but if a thread is up and going and has pages already posted when I see it, I just can't face into it.

Wow, reading that back I think I just described getting addicted to forum threads. Ain't that something.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Solecist Project
#2955 - 2014-09-01 17:01:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ultimately, almost every troll is worth responding to as if they were authentic.
But that leads to insane amounts of possibilities to manipulate all those who keep responding...

I don't see the upsides outweighing the downsides ...


Just look at this thread. So many people could do something that makes them happy,
instead though people write post after post after post for no obvious gain...

In the end, the troll gets what he wants, no?

He keeps you people busy...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2956 - 2014-09-01 17:03:01 UTC
To go back 151 pages: NO, ganking has not become a problem. It's not too easy, it's not unbalanced. It's not bad or wrong or 'evil'.

The reason it hasn't become any of those things is because it CAN'T. It's a legal, condoned, allowed video game activity in a game that specifically allows it. In the same way that a mission runner can't run too many missions or a miner can't mine too many rocks, a ganker crew can't gank enough frieghters (full, empty, painted bright pink and wearing a tutu, whatever) to make ganking a 'problem'.

EVE features universal non-consensual pvp in space. CCP and freaking GOOGLE tell you this before you ever even try to install EVE Online. That means that at any moment you are in space, you can be engaged by another player for any reason that other player sees fit. It can be for profit, it can be for some other oppurtunity, or (because this is a video game) it can be fore that other guy to get his jollies. The game will not protect you fro this interaction, because non-consensual pvp is at the heart of EVe Online's game design.

You are free to dislike the fact that people who are not like you exist and paid 15 bucks to play a video game you have also chosen, but that's just a personality flaw on your side, not a problem with that actions of the other guys. If you don't like that EVE online is, at it's heart, a video game version of a mosh pit, the fault lies with you for choosing to play it, not with the game company that has ALWAYS produced the game the way it is, or the player base that pays for this specific kind of game.

TL;DR **** off of you don't like it you weak minded popinjay.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2957 - 2014-09-01 17:03:17 UTC
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today. Since I don't have time to respond to each troll, I will just make one composite post for ya'll.

To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too - but there isn't much you can do when pinned down by bumping and hit with wave after wave of gankers.

To our numbers person - Our operative statistic was 1.4 freighters being killed a day, but CODE alone seems to have taken out quit a few of them, and that number has been markedly increasing. This alone demonstrates that freighter ganking is increasing.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2958 - 2014-09-01 17:04:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
To go back 151 pages: NO, ganking has not become a problem. It's not too easy, it's not unbalanced. It's not bad or wrong or 'evil'.

The reason it hasn't become any of those things is because it CAN'T. It's a legal, condoned, allowed video game activity in a game that specifically allows it. In the same way that a mission runner can't run too many missions or a miner can't mine too many rocks, a ganker crew can't gank enough frieghters (full, empty, painted bright pink and wearing a tutu, whatever) to make ganking a 'problem'.

EVE features universal non-consensual pvp in space. CCP and freaking GOOGLE tell you this before you ever even try to install EVE Online. That means that at any moment you are in space, you can be engaged by another player for any reason that other player sees fit. It can be for profit, it can be for some other oppurtunity, or (because this is a video game) it can be fore that other guy to get his jollies. The game will not protect you fro this interaction, because non-consensual pvp is at the heart of EVe Online's game design.

You are free to dislike the fact that people who are not like you exist and paid 15 bucks to play a video game you have also chosen, but that's just a personality flaw on your side, not a problem with that actions of the other guys. If you don't like that EVE online is, at it's heart, a video game version of a mosh pit, the fault lies with you for choosing to play it, not with the game company that has ALWAYS produced the game the way it is, or the player base that pays for this specific kind of game.

TL;DR **** off of you don't like it you weak minded popinjay.


Or you could intelligently examine the risk/reward and ask CCP to make appropriate changes.....imagine that....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2959 - 2014-09-01 17:06:08 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
In the end, the troll gets what he wants, no?
In the end, what the troll wants is irrelevant — the position they hold is ground into a fine dust and the next time someone tries to bring it up, they insta-fail to provide a convincing argument. The troll also invariably outs himself and gets noted on the GMs' naughty list.

As an added bonus, being irrelevant is pure poison to trolls. Twisted
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2960 - 2014-09-01 17:07:07 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today. Since I don't have time to respond to each troll, I will just make one composite post for ya'll.

To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too - but there isn't much you can do when pinned down by bumping and hit with wave after wave of gankers.

To our numbers person - Our operative statistic was 1.4 freighters being killed a day, but CODE alone seems to have taken out quit a few of them, and that number has been markedly increasing. This alone demonstrates that freighter ganking is increasing.



None of this answers my stats-based denial of your assertion that Blockade Runners, DSTs and Jump Freighters are useless.

Some of those figures prove that less than 5% of ganks in a class are Advanced cargo vessels.

You can argue this is due to their lower usage.

But considering the market demand I dont think that this is true.

I may not have figures for the amount of these ships in space but I have first hand experience of not being killed in all of them.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann