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High end mineral crisis

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GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#21 - 2014-08-28 20:47:51 UTC
Multiple people told the clowns at CCP that they were making too many changes to the system at once, of course they completely ignored those comments in the discussion threads. If you think things are messed up now, just wait a few weeks for people to come back from summer vacation.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#22 - 2014-08-28 21:24:20 UTC
I disagree with the concept of artificial price fixing just to keep Arkanor the most valuable ore. Let the market do its thing. Why is it a problem that it is not always the most valuable ore?

The null-sec renters who go, "Ooh shiny Arkanor!" are currently over-supplying those minerals. But they are happy doing it. (Proof that they are happy: they haven't stopped!) Smarter miners can open up a spreadsheet and figure out what they should be mining today.

If CCP keeps fiddling with the mineral content of asteroids to keep the prices matching the alphabetical order, doesn't that take away the last little bit of thinking that miners need to do? Why make the game even more boring for them?
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#23 - 2014-08-28 21:41:50 UTC
I think we still need to wait and see what happens. The summer holidays haven't ended yet and online figures are still in the 25k to 30k region a lot of the time atm. We have to hope we get back to the 40k to 50k numbers again soon-ish. If not something has gone seriously wrong. And not in the sense of mineral supply.......Sad

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Team Bidders
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-08-28 22:05:21 UTC
The crash of high-end minerals doesn't affect miners' income as long as they know how to calculate and find out the most lucrative ore to mine; the crash DOES affect the SPECULATORS who have stockpiled tons of high-end minerals.

I hate speculators so I don't feel sorry for them.
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-08-28 23:48:24 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
I disagree with the concept of artificial price fixing just to keep Arkanor the most valuable ore. Let the market do its thing. Why is it a problem that it is not always the most valuable ore?

The null-sec renters who go, "Ooh shiny Arkanor!" are currently over-supplying those minerals. But they are happy doing it. (Proof that they are happy: they haven't stopped!) Smarter miners can open up a spreadsheet and figure out what they should be mining today.

If CCP keeps fiddling with the mineral content of asteroids to keep the prices matching the alphabetical order, doesn't that take away the last little bit of thinking that miners need to do? Why make the game even more boring for them?



Actually, CCP decides what nullsec miners mine. Nullsec mining is done in anomalies in upgraded systems, not in the generic spawned belts like in highsec and lowsec. You have to mine the entire belt before a new one spawns, ther isnt much choice.
Adunh Slavy
#26 - 2014-08-29 00:25:38 UTC
Consumables for everyone at all times, fuel, repair costs, maintinance, boosters, etc, simple vanity.

Too much wealth, not enough places for it to go.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#27 - 2014-08-29 14:43:51 UTC
Who is forcing you to mine only in the anomalies in upgraded systems? There are 1000 sov nullsec systems with 0 industry index. Some of them are probably owned by your friends. The low sec ores spawn in even poor truesec nullsec. Then there are always the options of moving your mining operation into a wormhole or into low sec or even back into high sec. Sure, that is more dangerous than mining in your own system, but more risk, more reward.

"But I'm paying a lot of isk every month to rent this system." Well, maybe take a couple weeks to learn to fly a battlecruiser and rat for your isk? It will almost certainly pay better.

"But I want to mine, and I want to do it in nullsec." Then I submit that you really are happy doing what you are doing and just want more isk out of it. Accept the fact that when many people do an activity, there will be a great deal of competition and the payout will be low.

Sorry I have little sympathy for renters. I was one once.

If CCP added more minerals to Arkanor without changing anything else, then all it would do would be to increase the supply of those minerals. Increased supply means lower price. And the average income of all the miners in the cluser would stay about the same.

What CCP could do to make null-sec miners' lives more interesting is to make the new anomaly spawn when the previous one has only been 50% mined out. You would be able to cherry pick the best ore again, and let the ones which are not worth your time despawn.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-08-29 14:48:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Shoogie wrote:
Who is forcing you to mine only in the anomalies in upgraded systems? There are 1000 sov nullsec systems with 0 industry index. Some of them are probably owned by your friends. The low sec ores spawn in even poor truesec nullsec. Then there are always the options of moving your mining operation into a wormhole or into low sec or even back into high sec. Sure, that is more dangerous than mining in your own system, but more risk, more reward.

"But I'm paying a lot of isk every month to rent this system." Well, maybe take a couple weeks to learn to fly a battlecruiser and rat for your isk? It will almost certainly pay better.

"But I want to mine, and I want to do it in nullsec." Then I submit that you really are happy doing what you are doing and just want more isk out of it. Accept the fact that when many people do an activity, there will be a great deal of competition and the payout will be low.

Sorry I have little sympathy for renters. I was one once.

If CCP added more minerals to Arkanor without changing anything else, then all it would do would be to increase the supply of those minerals. Increased supply means lower price. And the average income of all the miners in the cluser would stay about the same.

What CCP could do to make null-sec miners' lives more interesting is to make the new anomaly spawn when the previous one has only been 50% mined out. You would be able to cherry pick the best ore again, and let the ones which are not worth your time despawn.

Nullsec belts don't have nearly the ore amounts (m3) as standard belts. Furthermore, they don't respawn with much ore either. The anoms are the most consistent source of m3 for all minerals, not just ABC. Maybe with the exception of veldspar but after I mine out all the veld from the belts it takes a few days to get those rocks back at any consistent m3. I've mined out all the veld consistently in a system and they come back as pebbles that don't take a full cycle to mine. Then I'm up a creek and have to hit anoms again.

Furthermore, the anoms are not just for people mining ABC. I know many miners (and myself) that mine out the mex ores so they can build things but what do you do when it's all gone? You need to flip the belt to refresh the supply of mex ores you really want and then you end up with a bunch of ores you don't need or want ie. zydrine and megacyte. Hence, an oversupply of high ends greater than the demand.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-08-30 02:02:19 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
Who is forcing you to mine only in the anomalies in upgraded systems? There are 1000 sov nullsec systems with 0 industry index. Some of them are probably owned by your friends. The low sec ores spawn in even poor truesec nullsec. Then there are always the options of moving your mining operation into a wormhole or into low sec or even back into high sec. Sure, that is more dangerous than mining in your own system, but more risk, more reward.

"But I'm paying a lot of isk every month to rent this system." Well, maybe take a couple weeks to learn to fly a battlecruiser and rat for your isk? It will almost certainly pay better.

"But I want to mine, and I want to do it in nullsec." Then I submit that you really are happy doing what you are doing and just want more isk out of it. Accept the fact that when many people do an activity, there will be a great deal of competition and the payout will be low.

Sorry I have little sympathy for renters. I was one once.

If CCP added more minerals to Arkanor without changing anything else, then all it would do would be to increase the supply of those minerals. Increased supply means lower price. And the average income of all the miners in the cluser would stay about the same.

What CCP could do to make null-sec miners' lives more interesting is to make the new anomaly spawn when the previous one has only been 50% mined out. You would be able to cherry pick the best ore again, and let the ones which are not worth your time despawn.


I can see why you couldnt even cut it a s a renter.
So your solution to counter the lower income from the nullsec ore is to go mine in the regular belts, where the rocks are alot smaller, so less isk/hour, warping from belt to belt, you cant mine while warping so less isk/hour or even better, moving from system to system with mining fleets, and guess what, you cant mine while moving either, so less isk/hour.
Maybe even setting up a pos in those other systems, waiting an hour for it to anchor/online. Yeah that sounds like a really good solution.

I think you never mined a rock, in your live, or never been in nullsec, or maybe both.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#30 - 2014-08-30 02:57:30 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:


I can see why you couldnt even cut it a s a renter.
So your solution to counter the lower income from the nullsec ore is to go mine in the regular belts, where the rocks are alot smaller, so less isk/hour, warping from belt to belt, you cant mine while warping so less isk/hour or even better, moving from system to system with mining fleets, and guess what, you cant mine while moving either, so less isk/hour.
Maybe even setting up a pos in those other systems, waiting an hour for it to anchor/online. Yeah that sounds like a really good solution.

I think you never mined a rock, in your live, or never been in nullsec, or maybe both.

Sources please.
Actual cubage in a null belt.
Number of belts in a single system.

Then do the same for high sec.

Then look at the ratio that the belt ores need to be higher than the anom ores to turn a profit over the anoms regardless.
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#31 - 2014-08-30 03:12:09 UTC
Team Bidders wrote:
The crash of high-end minerals doesn't affect miners' income as long as they know how to calculate and find out the most lucrative ore to mine


Veldspar. Always has been the best ISK/hr ore, probably always will be. Always in demand, always in short supply. Easy to find, easy to mine, easy to get to market.

Chribba was preaching the truth a long time ago. If you want to mine ore for profit rather than for building stuff, just mine veld. Now that you can anchor compression arrays in hisec sysytems, you don't even need freighters to carry your ore any more; a Miasmos or two will do nicely. (But watch out for gankers! A Miasmos is a very tasty target when loaded with compressed ore.)
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#32 - 2014-08-30 03:14:33 UTC
One thing about mining in null from a few years back when I was still living out there: those Spod rocks are huge and take forever to pop, but you have to do it in order to get the belt to respawn. Lousy ore, boring work, Spod was why it sucked to be a miner in null.
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-08-30 15:34:14 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:


I can see why you couldnt even cut it a s a renter.
So your solution to counter the lower income from the nullsec ore is to go mine in the regular belts, where the rocks are alot smaller, so less isk/hour, warping from belt to belt, you cant mine while warping so less isk/hour or even better, moving from system to system with mining fleets, and guess what, you cant mine while moving either, so less isk/hour.
Maybe even setting up a pos in those other systems, waiting an hour for it to anchor/online. Yeah that sounds like a really good solution.

I think you never mined a rock, in your live, or never been in nullsec, or maybe both.

Sources please.
Actual cubage in a null belt.
Number of belts in a single system.

Then do the same for high sec.

Then look at the ratio that the belt ores need to be higher than the anom ores to turn a profit over the anoms regardless.



Well i didnt make the statement that mining smaller rocks, and moving from belt to belt is more profitable then mining large rocks and staying in the same place. I already know you dont make any isk while warping, moving mining fleets to other systems or even other regions like Shoogie suggested.
If either you or Shoogie think it is, maybe you should get the numbers before making such statements.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#34 - 2014-08-30 18:14:05 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
The most impactful reason that high end minerals are plummeting right now is because of the nerf to compression.

A huge portion of all minerals are consumed by supercap builders in nullsec. When they can't reliably get supplies of low end minerals (compressed ore!), their production line stops. This, in turn, reduces the demand for all minerals. High-ends are being hit the hardest because they're still being supplied at a constant rate from null at the same or better efficiency as before (due to the refining changes)- especially compared to the low ends that are now largely refined at "bad" stations in high sec.

It's unclear how long this will last. If high sec miners start compressing more ore and selling the compressed ore, demand might pick up again.

I'm personally in favor of CCP redistributing the spawns from null industrial upgrade sites, although this might be overkill once highsec realizes to sell their ore compressed.


Dont forget there was a big war and hundreds of asshurt cap pilots rage quit.

It's been affecting the entire market for sometime now and is the main sourge of PLEX inflation.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#35 - 2014-08-30 21:13:12 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:


Well i didnt make the statement that mining smaller rocks, and moving from belt to belt is more profitable then mining large rocks and staying in the same place. I already know you dont make any isk while warping, moving mining fleets to other systems or even other regions like Shoogie suggested.
If either you or Shoogie think it is, maybe you should get the numbers before making such statements.

No, you are the one claiming that despite the ore in the belts being more valuable, the smaller rock size and the warp times will make less profit anyway. So the onus is on you to prove what numbers actually are.
Not on me to prove that time spent mining more valuable ore is.... more valuable.

Since if you aren't AFK mining you don't get affected by the rock size since you use scanners and finish cycles early.
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-08-30 22:14:11 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:


Well i didnt make the statement that mining smaller rocks, and moving from belt to belt is more profitable then mining large rocks and staying in the same place. I already know you dont make any isk while warping, moving mining fleets to other systems or even other regions like Shoogie suggested.
If either you or Shoogie think it is, maybe you should get the numbers before making such statements.

No, you are the one claiming that despite the ore in the belts being more valuable, the smaller rock size and the warp times will make less profit anyway. So the onus is on you to prove what numbers actually are.
Not on me to prove that time spent mining more valuable ore is.... more valuable.

Since if you aren't AFK mining you don't get affected by the rock size since you use scanners and finish cycles early.


Poor troll attempt is poor i guess.
Look back a few posts and check Shoogie's first post, where he says nullsec miners have a choice what to mine.
If either you or he think nullsec miners have a choice, proof it.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2014-08-30 23:33:50 UTC
We already have. If the ore in the belts is more valuable, then mine it. It's pretty simple from our point of view.
You are the one claiming other factors make that choice non-viable, so back up your claims.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-08-31 04:52:49 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Let the market sort it all out. Just because the ABC ores are not worth the most doesn't mean there is anything wrong. The changes to refining means mineral value is not the best indication of value.



Well the way the tiers of the minerals work the megacyte and zydrine should cost more than the previous tiers.


Yeah they do, but people cherry pick them and the highsec miners are all thankful for it. Start running mining ops in nullsec to clear everything and the whole picture changes overnight.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-08-31 07:44:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
We already have. If the ore in the belts is more valuable, then mine it. It's pretty simple from our point of view.
You are the one claiming other factors make that choice non-viable, so back up your claims.


Thats not proof, that's you just saying something so. If you say the ore in the belts is more valuable to mine, we need some numbers, how much of that valuable ore is in the belts, how long does it take you to mine mine it compared to mining ore in anomalies
Backup your claim with some tests and numbers, we'll even wait till you train some mining skills.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#40 - 2014-08-31 08:24:21 UTC
It's fine.

It's safer to mine the high ends somewhere deep in null than to suck Veld in hi sec belts. As the high ends are small volume it's trivial to move them around in bulk.

Even if you would get your wish of increasing high end mineral content in capital components their isk/h would return to be about same or slightly less than the hi sec mining isk/h.

I assume you counted in Roqual boosts in your calculations for isk/h? Roqual boosts are slightly larger than the Orca ones.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.