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High end mineral crisis

First post
Author
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#41 - 2014-08-31 10:49:24 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:


Thats not proof, that's you just saying something so. If you say the ore in the belts is more valuable to mine, we need some numbers, how much of that valuable ore is in the belts, how long does it take you to mine mine it compared to mining ore in anomalies
Backup your claim with some tests and numbers, we'll even wait till you train some mining skills.

http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
Since you appear unable to calculate exactly how valuable each ore is.
It's pretty simple. If it's worth more, mine it.
It doesn't matter if there is only a few hours worth of mining per system for your multibox mining fleet. You still make more profit for those few hours AND increase the value of your high ends since more low ends mined means more high ends that can be used at the same time.
So.... Mine it.

You however are arguing that despite the ore being more valuable it's not worth your time to mine it because it doesn't infinitely respawn. My maths is fairly simple, and doesn't need any magic proof. You simply mine the most valuable ores available to you till they go away, then you mine the next ones.
You are the one trying to make a complicated argument involving amount of ore & warp time.

Incidentally, I have mining skills, I have reprocessing skills, and I do mining & industry. So I do know what I'm talking about. You however.... seem not to.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2014-09-01 07:17:06 UTC
You could run massive goon mining ops to clear constelations of ore. But then you would be in danger of creating content.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Oxide Ammar
#43 - 2014-09-01 10:36:13 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
You could run massive goon mining ops to clear constelations of ore. But then you would be in danger of creating content.

Exactly, this problem wasn't created by itself nor CCP latest involvement in mineral composition in ores, This arm race between coalitions of manufacturing armadas of supers and titans are the one that makes problem.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#44 - 2014-09-01 11:48:23 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
You could run massive goon mining ops to clear constelations of ore. But then you would be in danger of creating content.

Exactly, this problem wasn't created by itself nor CCP latest involvement in mineral composition in ores, This arm race between coalitions of manufacturing armadas of supers and titans are the one that makes problem.


Yeah, of course the players are at fault here! Dumb players, why did they invent supers and titans, players should never have been allowed to implement them into Eve!!! Roll

Seriously, if supers and titans were actually balanced instead of "the one with the most wins automatically", this problem wouldn't exist.
Tar Frayaer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-09-01 12:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tar Frayaer
Its just the well deserved counter part of eating 24/7 the big fat blue donut.

These are no longer "high end tier" ore since 0.0 is safer than HS.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#46 - 2014-09-01 17:14:26 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
So im sure lots of you have noticed how the 2 highest end minerals are next to worthless. Ark is on the bottom of the list and bist is in the middle.


So what ? Lay the blame where it belongs, in Null, with all those who bitched to CCP that they couldn't make ISK on high ends.

So the amounts in ores were changed, and the market got *FLOODED*.

Funny that. Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-09-02 02:35:47 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
You could run massive goon mining ops to clear constelations of ore. But then you would be in danger of creating content.

Exactly, this problem wasn't created by itself nor CCP latest involvement in mineral composition in ores, This arm race between coalitions of manufacturing armadas of supers and titans are the one that makes problem.


Yeah, of course the players are at fault here! Dumb players, why did they invent supers and titans, players should never have been allowed to implement them into Eve!!! Roll

Seriously, if supers and titans were actually balanced instead of "the one with the most wins automatically", this problem wouldn't exist.


Eh? Don't see the problem here. There is tons of unmined ore. Get those mining skills up and put more mining fleets in space. You should have no problems defending your exhumers because as the goon leader himself reminds us, power projection isn't a problem.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-09-02 23:56:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:


Thats not proof, that's you just saying something so. If you say the ore in the belts is more valuable to mine, we need some numbers, how much of that valuable ore is in the belts, how long does it take you to mine mine it compared to mining ore in anomalies
Backup your claim with some tests and numbers, we'll even wait till you train some mining skills.

http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
Since you appear unable to calculate exactly how valuable each ore is.
It's pretty simple. If it's worth more, mine it.
It doesn't matter if there is only a few hours worth of mining per system for your multibox mining fleet. You still make more profit for those few hours AND increase the value of your high ends since more low ends mined means more high ends that can be used at the same time.
So.... Mine it.

You however are arguing that despite the ore being more valuable it's not worth your time to mine it because it doesn't infinitely respawn. My maths is fairly simple, and doesn't need any magic proof. You simply mine the most valuable ores available to you till they go away, then you mine the next ones.
You are the one trying to make a complicated argument involving amount of ore & warp time.

Incidentally, I have mining skills, I have reprocessing skills, and I do mining & industry. So I do know what I'm talking about. You however.... seem not to.


The effing forum keeps eating my posts.
Its fairly simple, your math doesnt add up, since you're already mining, but still refuse to give us some numbers, make a vid, that will proof once forall how wrong we are.
The valuable ores in the regular nullsec belts are very few and pretty small, and an entire mining fleet wouldnt need hours to clean them in an average system. Ofc if you would acually mine in nullsec you would know that.
Just like you would know that mining smaller rocks always have a little wasted time, no matter how good you are at using the survey scanner. Its impossible to time it perfectly, and even if you could, restarting your mining lasers also makes you lose a few seconds. If you actually did some mining as you claim you do, you would've known this.
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-09-03 00:02:44 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Zetaomega333 wrote:
So im sure lots of you have noticed how the 2 highest end minerals are next to worthless. Ark is on the bottom of the list and bist is in the middle.


So what ? Lay the blame where it belongs, in Null, with all those who bitched to CCP that they couldn't make ISK on high ends.

So the amounts in ores were changed, and the market got *FLOODED*.

Funny that. Roll



I rather think the blame is with CCP, they keep pushing ppl to low and nullsec, now there are alot of miners from highsec in nullsec, so there is an increase in the nullsec ores being mined.
Oh and the mineral changes they made a little while ago, its not the minerals they added that crashed.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2014-09-03 00:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
I am expanding on my previous post in this thread.

The high end ores plummeting in price is because of the increased relative supply of high end minerals compared to low end minerals from high sec. Coupled with reduced demand, the price continues to fall on high end minerals.

This is not a problem with just compression- yes, that is an issue- but the change in relative supply is most impacted by the changes to refining in both high sec and null. Null stations get a huge (20%) realized bonus to refining output as opposed to high sec. The ores in nullsec are "top heavy" - meaning higher distribution of high end minerals. Because people are continuing to mine and refine in null, they are producing high end minerals much faster than high sec can produce low end minerals. High sec miners not compressing their ore is compounding this problem, because their ore loses 20% of its mineral value when refined in high sec.

I've made a post in F&I on how to somewhat fix this issue, as well as Querns' post in the S&I forum on compression.

Saying "leave it as it is because I'm making a profit and this is the best change ever made to Eve" is not a valid argument. It is not reasonable for all of nullsec to be fed by a spergy clickfest of 12+ freighter alts with titan support.

Edit: This is even further compounded when taking into consideration rorqual boosts vs orca boosts in high sec. If you have an equal number of equally skilled players mining in Null and High Sec, the high end minerals will be supplied at a much higher rate than the low end minerals (compared to their demand from t1 production).
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-09-03 03:51:59 UTC
so the arguement here is that there arent enough low ends , because there arent enough hisec miners compressing to feed the null demand but its not worth the effort of mining the low ends in null because there are high ends available despite the overproduction of high ends and the need for low ends.

Or is it that there arent enough low end minerals in null belts?
Or that there arent enough null belts?
Or that there arent enough low end minerals in high end ores?
Or that there arent enough miners in null?
Or that there are too many miners in null?

Im not sure what problem CCP is supposed to fix if in null if there are too many miners but they aren't mining what you need in null. CCP is suppose to do what exactly, when its null miners behaviors that are the issue.

Or i guess you could encourage your members to stop ganking barges in hisec,
Or mine themselves,
Or encourage your local renters to mine what you actually need out there.

What exactly is the issue here?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#52 - 2014-09-03 12:47:35 UTC
Here's an idea to shake things up - remove the zonal restrictions on ore. Any ore can spawn in any system. But here's the thing: no more fixed asteroid belts. Nowhere in eve. Instead, they'd all be anoms and spawn at random places in the system with random ore compositions. (But proportional -- Veld would spawn far more often and in bigger roids than Ark, for example.) The separation of ores may have made sense once upon a time when nullsec was dangerous and logistics were nightmarish, but now that we have the big blue donut and jump freighters to get stuff to Jita with minimal fuss, the ore distribution makes no sense at all.

The addition of compression arrays was a welcome change, but limiting them to POS's limits their utility. Running a POS just for compression services isn't cost-effective. (Mobile compression array, CCP? Plz? Compressing ore on the spot in the belt would be the absolute ****, and I wouldn't need to put a Rorqual at risk to do it.)

Mining is a broken mechanic and the best thing to do would be to scrap it and make it a passive gathering mechanic like PI, but I doubt that's ever going to happen.
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#53 - 2014-09-03 13:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: SJ Astralana
Miners -- whether in 1.0 or 0.0 -- are the sweatshop 14yo girls of Eve, always crying for better benefits, but not actually stepping out of a sweatshop job. Peasants will always migrate to the marginal isk benefit like Okies to California, and there's no reason for CCP to get involved.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2014-09-03 14:29:08 UTC
I think one of the strongest arguments in favor of the changes posted in this thread is the incredible weakness of the arguments raised by various npc alts, people bad at math, and people just generally mad at the goonswarm menace.

The market makes abundantly clear that the system is broken. Mining ore in 0.0 is the exclusive province of the (a) bad at math (b) idiots and (c) people who multibox so many miners they can't possibly rat with that many characters, and also cleared all of the ice spawns already.

There are a variety of ideas like "well, you could do something stupid, and if everyone in 0.0 also did those stupid things then things might change just a tiny bit". But remember, these are idiots who don't really understand that people are going to act in their own interests, and that the game should incentivize the proper behavior.

That Zyd is in the 400s means the system is broken, period. The reason the system is broken is ore anomolies, and those need to be fixed.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2014-09-03 14:30:57 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
The separation of ores may have made sense once upon a time when nullsec was dangerous and logistics were nightmarish, but now that we have the big blue donut and jump freighters to get stuff to Jita with minimal fuss, the ore distribution makes no sense at all.


It is interesting that people who wet their pants at the very thought of entering 0.0 are so eager to convince everyone else it's safe. I realize that it's probably because they want to pretend they're not wetting their pants at the thought of risk, but just 'choose not to live in 0.0', but you'd think their brain would realize there's a conflict there at some point.
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#56 - 2014-09-03 15:44:06 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
The separation of ores may have made sense once upon a time when nullsec was dangerous and logistics were nightmarish, but now that we have the big blue donut and jump freighters to get stuff to Jita with minimal fuss, the ore distribution makes no sense at all.


It is interesting that people who wet their pants at the very thought of entering 0.0 are so eager to convince everyone else it's safe. I realize that it's probably because they want to pretend they're not wetting their pants at the thought of risk, but just 'choose not to live in 0.0', but you'd think their brain would realize there's a conflict there at some point.


I lived in null exclusively for two years or more. Did the wormhole thing for a while too. I left because it's boring, not because it's dangerous. (Well, that and all the damned sov drama, but that's another thread entirely.)

Lowsec is more exciting, but it's hard to make ISK there. Hisec is where you go to make the ISKies. (And that makes sense lore-wise. Money follows safety and robust commerce.)
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2014-09-03 16:21:06 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:

Lowsec is more exciting, but it's hard to make ISK there. Hisec is where you go to make the ISKies. (And that makes sense lore-wise. Money follows safety and robust commerce.)

It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2014-09-04 04:00:58 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:

Lowsec is more exciting, but it's hard to make ISK there. Hisec is where you go to make the ISKies. (And that makes sense lore-wise. Money follows safety and robust commerce.)

It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.


Roll Better blow the dust off all those highsec mining fleets then.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#59 - 2014-09-04 04:47:47 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:

It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.

Other than you know, the superior null sec static belts also. With all the low ends and the mid low sec ores which are the most profitable thrown in for good measure.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2014-09-04 05:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:

It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.

Other than you know, the superior null sec static belts also. With all the low ends and the mid low sec ores which are the most profitable thrown in for good measure.


They are too elite to mine those and envy all the highsec static belts and the riches that come from them. Bear

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~