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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Ettig Grunar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2014-08-17 12:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ettig Grunar
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

......

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.

Good changes Fozzie. Stick to your guns


/strongly disagree

Thatt Guy wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We don't do design by vote...


Source: https://soundcloud.com/atomycx/wormhole-townhall-with-ccp-fozzie @ 23:23

*This is NOT a rumor, speculation, or a slight to a CCP Employee, but a direct quote, with source for proof.


So basically, our feedback doesn't matter to Fozzie or CCP.

/done


/very, very sad

also in the soundcloud interview the answer, when he was asked how/who came actually up with the suggestion to implement this, was not convincing at all imo. he thought some player suggested it , and then it was somehow brought up to them by a CSM member RollUgh .. and so on and so on ... i really wonder how "such" and "idea" can end up in the real game when there are many, many good arguements by the players base against this change ... and imo no good explaination for this changes.

spawing on the other side based to the speed ability of the ship is a way better idea imo.
also spawning based on jump direction or something similar as posted above...Big smile

element of luck and a "random distance generator" in a wh, especially regarding caps(!)Shocked, is really really no good atl all !!!!111Cry


PS: Devblog: "The basics of this proposal is for the mass of any individual ship to influence the range that they appear from the wormhole when they emerge on the other side. This should provide a more interesting tactical environment in wormhole combat and ensure a basic level of risk to rolling a wormhole without proper support."

yes, i understand the background ... but still having the slowest ships (mostly caps when rolling) spawn far far away ... oh no no no
Winthorp
#1022 - 2014-08-17 12:16:33 UTC
jonnykefka wrote:
Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this.


Can i have your stuff?

Seriously though will that mean only 2 other people left active in ADHOC?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1023 - 2014-08-17 12:37:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
jonnykefka wrote:
Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this.


Can i have your stuff?

Seriously though will that mean only 2 other people left active in ADHOC?



Tell you what, rather than ask, why not let the new wormhole "luck generator because it is the new funness"™ system decide if you get their stuff or they get yours?Big smileRoll

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Glasgow Dunlop
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1024 - 2014-08-17 12:38:16 UTC
Ettig Grunar wrote:

also in the soundcloud interview the answer, when he was asked how/who came actually up with the suggestion to implement this, was not convincing at all imo. he thought some player suggested it , and then it was somehow brought up to them by a CSM member RollUgh .. and so on and so on ... i really wonder how "such" and "idea" can end up in the real game when there are many, many good arguements by the players base against this change ... and imo no good explaination for this changes.




That was Chitsa Jason, who is now living in lo-sec now with EE. Makes sense.

Also dont forget folk he called all Wormholers, all of us, dumb.

I'm sure I've said before( or somebody else ) if this was null-sec and the changes would have been made to jumping via cyno's, Jump bridges and Titain Bridges, That wouls have been dropped so far as the rage would have been so hard, it seems to me were are the guinea pigs for null.

Also as stated in the townhall, who does the changes REALLY benifit, as it sure as hell aint us.

@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet

TDSIN Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' for more info, Join today!

Glasgow EVE Meets Organiser
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1025 - 2014-08-17 12:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
I am really beginning to wonder if people in CCP actually realise, what makes thing work and what actually is the reason why this game has stuck around.

Lets take wormholes, they had ideas of what they wanted them to be, and decided that if the mechanics were complex enough, that people would puzzle a little of it out, and that would be fun and challenging.

Well they were certainly right here, and people puzzled tested, tried and died and tried again. That was fun, that made wormhole space great.

Now we have arrived here, sure we would like some new tests, challenges, and opportunities.

What do we get?
Quite.

Would any one ever have bothered to spend the years some have, puzzling things out today? All that effort to discover that underlying the new features being implemented was not complex mechanics and obscure clues, but luck?

Wow would you feel stupid wasting all that effort.

So we will not,

It will be "oh a new feature, just put up with it, no reason to try to puzzle it out"

This new feature is like putting a single nail, in a single cake, in a single factory and telling people about it.
No one ever bothers to eat cake from that supplier again.
In attempting to juggle the figures All you are doing here fozzie is changing the size of the nail.

If you cannot understand that all the effort in wormhole space to date is now wasted, as there are no secrets to discover after this, we are just meant to be or to consume content. You have compromised wormhole space in it's entirety, this seemingly small issue to you, is literally saying, you would now be foolish to believe that the game operates in any consistent discoverable manner that rewards the efforts of discovery.

Did you really not realise that this was one of your unique selling points, that you have just casually thrown away?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1026 - 2014-08-17 13:12:03 UTC
Thatt Guy wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We don't do design by vote...


Source: https://soundcloud.com/atomycx/wormhole-townhall-with-ccp-fozzie @ 23:23

*This is NOT a rumor, speculation, or a slight to a CCP Employee, but a direct quote, with source for proof.


So basically, our feedback doesn't matter to Fozzie or CCP.

/done


Welp, guess I'm not moving into a WH then.

Shame, I was looking forward to it.
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1027 - 2014-08-17 13:22:13 UTC
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:


Also dont forget folk he called all Wormholers, all of us, dumb.

I was there and that was purely a phrase taken out of context, funny at the time but does more harm than good by being brought up here in the context you are giving it.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#1028 - 2014-08-17 13:28:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).

The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk.
To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km.
At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.

Random number generator is bad, and you should feel bad.


Wormholes are basically and fundamentally different than star gates and should not function like star gates. Star gates dump people out at x distance and gameplay evolved from that. Wormholes dump people out at x distance and gameplay evolved from that. Making Wormholes more like stargates messes with fundamental mechanics of how W-Space functions. This is making it function more like K space.

I don't like it, so have moved my stuff out to k space. I'll see how this change plays out.

Foz - WSpace wasn't broke.

*THIS* change is breaking a fundamental aspect of the WH game.

Is that clear enough?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1029 - 2014-08-17 13:56:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Design/development by vote would be utterly ******** and I don't think taking Fozzie's comment(s) out of context is particularly helpful here.

At the same ignoring that largely this is a deeply unpopular feature even with people who haven't asked for it but would benefit isn't a good way to go about developing a game either.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1030 - 2014-08-17 14:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Rroff wrote:
Design/development by vote would be utterly ******** and I don't think taking Fozzie's comment(s) out of context is particularly helpful here.

At the same ignoring that largely this is a deeply unpopular feature even with people who haven't asked for it but would benefit isn't a good way to go about developing a game either.



What is more disturbing is that we are questioning the entire design ethos of CCP.

Is eve a game that rewards the expenditure of effort, rewards skilful play, and where losses are real but we decide by our efforts, and intelligence, how we can effect the likelihood of reward or failure?

Or is it one where we just get on the treadmill of creation and destruction, and all we are is content or consumers of content. And all we do can be undone in moments, with the toss of a coin somewhere in a server in London?

If they have lost their way, and are not willing to listen to the people pointing desperately at the signposts showing where that leads, then there really is nothing left to say.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1031 - 2014-08-17 14:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Not disagreeing with what you say but I think to a degree its the fact that this specific feature has lost its way - it seems Chitsa has unfortunately legitimatised the views of a small number of players who aren't really bringing anything to wormhole space and looking for cheap easy ganks, mixed in with the fact that a similar feature could potentially be useful for mixing up the fleet meta that has often got stuck into certain themes due to the requirements of not being a suicide composition if you jump into another fleet on a wormhole mixed in with that there are some valid reasons in why the feature was proposed.

I mean I'm dead against the feature personally and I've enough accounts to collapse a wh "safely" using sub-capitals/cheap ships if it came to it and part of an alliance that is both big enough to defend collapsing capitals against many of the people we encounter but also made up of people who for the larger part aren't afraid to put capitals on the line even when it means going all in.
Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1032 - 2014-08-17 14:43:59 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


we f..k up Wh space


congratulations on NOT fixing the issue.
the problem isnt with the spawn distance, the problem is with the concept of spawning outside of jump range: we dont want it.
if you havnt figured it out yet then nothing new will make any difference so im done with this thread.

PS: i mean, if youre going to push through changes with such obvious and strong negative feedback anyway, why even bother putting up a feedback thread? its actually insulting


This exactly.
I cant think of a smart post that a) expresses my feelings on this .....and b) would not get me banned
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1033 - 2014-08-17 16:24:43 UTC
Xer Jin wrote:
Dear foz
I know you have good intentions with this new mecanic but I'd just like to say the time for "nice talk" is over.
This spawn mecanic is ****
And instead of scraping it you go and add anew variable to it
You are screwing over the small corps that live in wh space
I hope you get trapped in wh space with a head full of implants with an insufficient clone

QFT
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#1034 - 2014-08-17 16:36:54 UTC

How about increase spawn chance of out going holes to null sec from higher class wormholes?

Maybe it would feel less as CCP running the bidding of null sec.
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#1035 - 2014-08-17 17:36:21 UTC
Still consider this a terrible idea, that is all.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1036 - 2014-08-17 19:27:32 UTC
jonnykefka wrote:
Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this.


Can I have it? You know what.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Richard McTrader
Doomheim
#1037 - 2014-08-17 23:02:02 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The issue is not that Eve does not have elements of luck, It is that with this mechanic It is a matter of whether one jumps through and by pure luck lands in an unfortunate or fortunate part of the sphere of exit.

With this change There is nothing one can do to influence the chance of you living or dying, It is pure luck.
You have removed the opportunity for players to influence their environment.

Now it can be argued that that is exactly what happens with a known space gate.

And it is the freedom of these random chances to live or die that is and has always been a major part of the mechanics of wormhole space.

Closing and rolling holes currently is NOT risk free, skill and knowledge and experience can reduce that risk however.

But now.
Nothing one can do. A bad landing due to luck and it is all over.

Is it surprising that when skill ability and tactics are no help other than for the choice to jump or not, and one is a slave to just blind luck that people are somewhat upset?

The corollary to this is that it achieves the diametric opposite to your stated goals, and just takes people out of space and into their pos shields or log off waiting for better "luck" the next time they play.

For large corps it will be more of a pain, the risk and chance can be mitigated with numbers and support ships.

For medium and small corps, you have just made them victims to chance, and they will not take those odds.
Reduce the odds, and it is still just a misplaced and ineffective concept that improves nothing, and will fail in its stated goals.

This is NOT about players resisting change, It is about players advising you that you are implementing a BAD change.

Give us a mechanic that encourages fights on or off the hole, where skill tactics and training influence the outcome, and we will love you for it as that would be GOOD change.

Please, please put this idea aside and reach out to the community for how this could be achieved, most of us wish for greater opportunities for skilful combat, even if we lose horribly.
Even If it slips Hyperion, it is not a loss, we will have dodged a bullet, and will be grateful for a good replacement.
Theres lots of good and interesting stuff, we will not miss this.



Agreed. The mass-based spawn change is still a fundamentally bad idea. Tweaking the numbers will not make it a better idea. Luck and added tedium do not make a good game.

Please abandon this idea.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1038 - 2014-08-17 23:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Richard McTrader wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The issue is not that Eve does not have elements of luck, It is that with this mechanic It is a matter of whether one jumps through and by pure luck lands in an unfortunate or fortunate part of the sphere of exit.

With this change There is nothing one can do to influence the chance of you living or dying, It is pure luck.
You have removed the opportunity for players to influence their environment.

Now it can be argued that that is exactly what happens with a known space gate.

And it is the freedom of these random chances to live or die that is and has always been a major part of the mechanics of wormhole space.

Closing and rolling holes currently is NOT risk free, skill and knowledge and experience can reduce that risk however.

But now.
Nothing one can do. A bad landing due to luck and it is all over.

Is it surprising that when skill ability and tactics are no help other than for the choice to jump or not, and one is a slave to just blind luck that people are somewhat upset?

The corollary to this is that it achieves the diametric opposite to your stated goals, and just takes people out of space and into their pos shields or log off waiting for better "luck" the next time they play.

For large corps it will be more of a pain, the risk and chance can be mitigated with numbers and support ships.

For medium and small corps, you have just made them victims to chance, and they will not take those odds.
Reduce the odds, and it is still just a misplaced and ineffective concept that improves nothing, and will fail in its stated goals.

This is NOT about players resisting change, It is about players advising you that you are implementing a BAD change.

Give us a mechanic that encourages fights on or off the hole, where skill tactics and training influence the outcome, and we will love you for it as that would be GOOD change.

Please, please put this idea aside and reach out to the community for how this could be achieved, most of us wish for greater opportunities for skilful combat, even if we lose horribly.
Even If it slips Hyperion, it is not a loss, we will have dodged a bullet, and will be grateful for a good replacement.
Theres lots of good and interesting stuff, we will not miss this.



Agreed. The mass-based spawn change is still a fundamentally bad idea. Tweaking the numbers will not make it a better idea. Luck and added tedium do not make a good game.

Please abandon this idea.


It's worse than that, if all your efforts taking weeks or longer to gain a wonderful ship and fit it with care and planning, and all the training and skilling and anticipation, and one risks all, pitting your skill and cunning against an opponent in a committed attempt to win!
One glorious moment where you show all you have strived for comes together! And you can show you have what it takes, you will be the victor! Or die in a blaze of glory! Your heart pumps, you feel alive! You jump through!

And then, all that in an instant, is without meaning.

It is undone in a moment, purely due to luck. By a design based on a random action that cannot be influenced, and does not care if you live, die, or even exist..

You realise, that whatever you do is completely worthless. And always was.
And you struggled so hard to get to this moment where you thought you might just be good enough.
Instead you watch helpless, away from help, out of position, unable to escape, as your ship together with your efforts, hopes, and dreams , melt under the assault that you were randomly dropped in the middle of. Envying the fortune of your colleagues, who luck was kind to today, and suffering their pity and sympathy, for your cruel fate.

Why would you feel that your efforts had meaning? It's only a game, what a fool for believing, just for a minute anything you did mattered?

And why would one bother to try to believe ever again..........

Shame, it was fun while it lasted.

So CCP what part of your business plan involves putting in game mechanics that are designed to remind your customers that they are foolish to become immersed in the game?
How many times can one have ones nose rubbed into the fact that nothing we do ultimately makes a difference, before it just becomes too tiring to continue trying to suspend reality?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Irya Boone
The Scope
#1039 - 2014-08-18 00:02:40 UTC
Don't forget that CCP still thinks that WH lifestyle= nomad so in their head you only have to jump once or Twice ( when you come back )

For them if you want to find content you have to make this

A>>B>>C>>D>>E( where the content is) and not what we do now A>>B>>A>>C>>A>>D>>A>>E so in their mind it make sense to make it difficult for US to roll for content.

We just need to make CCp understand that people LIVE in WH !!

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#1040 - 2014-08-18 04:54:05 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
jonnykefka wrote:
Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this.


Can i have your stuff?

Seriously though will that mean only 2 other people left active in ADHOC?



Tell you what, rather than ask, why not let the new wormhole "luck generator because it is the new funness"™ system decide if you get their stuff or they get yours?Big smileRoll


Space is a dangerous and scary place; good thing we all play Eve.