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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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C C P Alliance
#181 - 2014-07-29 16:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.

@ccp_rise

The Tuskers Co.
#182 - 2014-07-29 16:38:10 UTC
I find the best way to get out good points is to obfuscate them with insults, trolling and mild derailment, CCP Rise. Sorry, its just my method. For what its worth, i don't actually think you are really really terrible at balance
Much appreciated for looking into BS MWD cap use. I really think this is the major issue with the tempest, rather than slot layout.
Catherine Laartii
#183 - 2014-07-29 16:38:13 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
@CCP Rise - For battleships, They would be used more if you Nerf Tier 3 battlecruisers.

264 DPS - Omen 5x Heavy Beam Lasers II (Multifreq)
356 DPS - Harbenger 6x Heavy Beam Lasers II
455 DPS - Oracle 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II
455 DPS - Abaddon 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II

Removing 1 turret slot from the oracle drops it to 398 DPS

But Caldari gets even better.

272 DPS - Moa 5x Heavy Neutron Blasters
305 DPS - Ferox 7x Heavy Neutron Blasters
584 DPS - Naga 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon
467 DPS - Rokh 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon

I cannot be blind. There is a major disconnect here. A lot of people will say "Oh but the tank will off set the imbalance in DPS"
NO.
IT.
DOESN'T.



hence my continuing disappointment with how the caldari hybrid boats have been balanced. They had a great thing going with the merlin and the moa, and when the bc rebal came with bated breath we saw...the ferox just got an extra gun and high, and had its missiles removed. Give Ferox and Rokh the blaster dps they deserve!
Goonswarm Federation
#184 - 2014-07-29 16:39:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone classes. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.

Sentry drones have no downsides compared to the significant downsides of light/medium/heavy drones. It is sentry drones, which are not smartbombable by the target and apply damage instantly, that are the problem because they are essentially an odd gun type and not a drone.
C C P Alliance
#185 - 2014-07-29 16:39:38 UTC
Duckslayer wrote:
I find the best way to get out good points is to obfuscate them with insults, trolling and mild derailment, CCP Rise. Sorry, its just my method. For what its worth, i don't actually think you are really really terrible at balance
Much appreciated for looking into BS MWD cap use. I really think this is the major issue with the tempest, rather than slot layout.


o/\o I'll see what I can do.

@ccp_rise

#186 - 2014-07-29 16:40:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone classes. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


but now you have isolated each size .. you can easily apply smaller and larger bonuses too the different sizes..
e.g

Ishtar
5% bonus too sentry drone damage
7.5% bonus to heavy drone damage

etc...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

C C P Alliance
#187 - 2014-07-29 16:40:52 UTC
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.

@ccp_rise

#188 - 2014-07-29 16:42:09 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
@CCP Rise - For battleships, They would be used more if you Nerf Tier 3 battlecruisers.

264 DPS - Omen 5x Heavy Beam Lasers II (Multifreq)
356 DPS - Harbenger 6x Heavy Beam Lasers II
455 DPS - Oracle 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II
455 DPS - Abaddon 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II

Removing 1 turret slot from the oracle drops it to 398 DPS

But Caldari gets even better.

272 DPS - Moa 5x Heavy Neutron Blasters
305 DPS - Ferox 7x Heavy Neutron Blasters
584 DPS - Naga 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon
467 DPS - Rokh 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon

I cannot be blind. There is a major disconnect here. A lot of people will say "Oh but the tank will off set the imbalance in DPS"
NO.
IT.
DOESN'T.



hence my continuing disappointment with how the caldari hybrid boats have been balanced. They had a great thing going with the merlin and the moa, and when the bc rebal came with bated breath we saw...the ferox just got an extra gun and high, and had its missiles removed. Give Ferox and Rokh the blaster dps they deserve!


The poor Ferox got shafted .. it still has weaker tank than the drake -1 mid slot and still has worse range anyway..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

WE FORM V0LTA
#189 - 2014-07-29 16:42:58 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).

Where's the problem?


what if you look around you abit? Name any other cruiser hull, that does 700dps at 45km? Name any other cruiser that can deliver any sort of dmg to that range with equal tracking to ishtar? Name any other cruiser that can do 700dps at 45km and still do like 2.45 kilometers a second capstable? Name any other cruiser that can get a BS amount of DPS to BS kind of ranges with almost frigate kind of tracking while doing 2.45 kilometers a second and STILL having around 60k ehp (pretty standard shield ishtar fleet fit). On top of this, the ishtar have 975PG, wherefrom it really needs not nearly all of it, so fits like dual LSE + 100mn AB, Dualprop + 1600plate etc are entirely possible without having to fit a singe fitting module or having to sacrifice anything at all on it.

So yeah, I dont see a problem here at all.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#190 - 2014-07-29 16:44:08 UTC
Misaniovent wrote:
What about the Sacrilege? Currently the Deimos does significantly more damage and tanks about as well. What about recon balance? The Curse and the Pilgrim are both in desperate need of attention.


Still waiting for recons and T3s to get rebalanced.

  • I think I heard about a Lachesis being flown the other day. But why fly a Lachesis when you have Arazu or Proteus?
  • Still see Falcons because ECM is powerful and covert cloak, even if it has been nerfed 3 times in 12 months. Haven't seen a Rook in years because why fly a shorter-ranged Rook when you have a Falcon? Or even the Blackbird. Or a Jamgu.
  • Rapier is good. Why fly a Huginn when you can fly a Rapier or Loki?
  • Saw a Curse yesterday. But the Legion does neuts better with 5-7x the EHP. Pilgrim still sucks ass for everything.


See a trend here? T3s are still ungodly OP. They are better HACs and Recons than HACs and Recons; Ishtar, Falcon, and Rapier excepting.

The second iteration of AT ship point costs saw the Dominix and Ishtar getting their point values increased by 2 or 3 points. What is common between them? Sentry drones. If that isn't a clue that there is a problem with sentries, I don't know what else we can do to demonstrate it.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

A Band Apart.
#191 - 2014-07-29 16:44:15 UTC
One point that everyone seems to forget with the minmatar line is that it is not always about overwhelming dps to win the fight. Granted at the BS level the point is a bit moot. But I think that the option to fit more turrets in general to the tempest may help it. If anyone could look at the numbers that would be awesome lol.

If the tempest is supposed to be an attack BS maybe increase it's agility?

The Ishtar does have amazing range projection. Maybe just a reduction to sentry range on the Ishtar? That way if it wants to project range it's stuck with its rail guns.

Goonswarm Federation
#192 - 2014-07-29 16:44:30 UTC
Basically everything that makes drones an interesting weapon that has upsides and downsides gets thrown out with sentries. With other drones you have chase time and your tradeoff is you're risking your dps being smartbombed off while it approaches. If you stay out of tackle range you apply dps less effectively, if you're within tackle range you can be tackled. Sentry drones...well, you have to go pick them back up once you're done. And it is theoretically possible someone might shoot it by mistake. Those disadvantages are miniscule compared to the downsides of the real drones.

Sentry ishtars that are forced off their sentry drones just go home, they don't die or anything interesting. You can't say "drones" in a balance discussion and discuss them like h/m/l drones and sentry drones have anything similar besides that they are used on drone ships.
Goonswarm Federation
#193 - 2014-07-29 16:45:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.

There's enough drone bay space plus cargo space (with depot) in an ishtar to carry 6 flights of sentries, letting you mitigate these "enormous downsides" quite effectively.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

#194 - 2014-07-29 16:46:31 UTC
Rise

nay news on missile rebalance / including missile mods???
cerb with HAM rage are crazy

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2014-07-29 16:47:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


And what happens when your (ISBoxed) bomber squads kill their sentries in a couple of bombing runs? The Ishtars just run away. The best strategy to fight Ishtars is to kill the pets, not players. It is just stupid. Players want to shoot eachother. Players don't want fights that last minutes because the other side suddenly can't fight anymore after they got hit by some AoE a few times.
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2014-07-29 16:47:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


k if youre gonna nerf can you do something about the mwd role bonus too? seems kinda useless.
Catherine Laartii
#197 - 2014-07-29 16:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


Here's a decent way out for balancing sentry drones, rise; give them the arty treatment.

Slow their RoF down quite a bit and up their alpha damage, then give them all the same ranges. This solves the raw dps issue since they SHOULD be under heavy attack drone dps anyway, but you get a different and interesting gameplay aspect with how they're fielded.

People up in arms about the ishtar being OP will quiet down because the singular issue that gets raised is with its dps. if you knock that down a few notches but up its alpha power, you have a better balanced boat and sentries in general will fall into a better place in the game without the ships using them getting the bejeezus nerfed out of them. PvPers will like the extra alpha damage, and the rounded out range will work with PvErs since they will be content with it because they have better overall range and damage options, despite the loss of paper dps with the closer-ranged sentry drones.

EVERYBODY WINS!
Big smileBig smileBig smile
Cherry Yeyo
#198 - 2014-07-29 16:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cherry Yeyo
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


With all due respect, this is your solo play and lack of large fleet experience talking here. 120 Ishtars drop bouncers and run away, kite out to 100-120km going over 2k m/s on the nano shield fit. They only die if the FC screws up really bad and if they DO get in trouble just disengage and run away.

The armor fit with a full rack of damps in the mids is even more ridiculous. These fits sacrifice zero dps for their amazing speed, sig tank and utility.

Nothing ever has been more ridiculous that the current ishtar in a large fleet. You cant have a solo wtfpwnmobile and not expect 0.0 groups to abuse the hell out of it.

.

#199 - 2014-07-29 16:48:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


it seems the upside surpasses the enormous downsides .. so whats the right word for the upsides then ??
Gigantic perhaps??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Goonswarm Federation
#200 - 2014-07-29 16:48:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


they can be killed, in theory, but not in practice like other drones which clump up around your target and this is trivially countered by the ishtar blob spreading out a bit so aoe weapons hit them poorly

they don't return to your ship, which is all but irrelevant in most situations

these are not meaningful downsides and it is absurd that you would call them enormous especially in comparison to moving drones
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