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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

First post First post First post
Author
Egravant Alduin
republic fleet battle support
#741 - 2014-05-26 10:00:18 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100.
Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight.


Agree.Battleships should have an advanatage and now they won t have it.Hi Niko

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!

Syd Unknown
#742 - 2014-05-26 11:09:42 UTC
Egravant Alduin wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100.
Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight.


Agree.Battleships should have an advanatage and now they won t have it.Hi Niko



YES, if CCP pushes this awful MMJD through, they should at least make the range a bit shorter then the Large MJD.
And I agree 75km would be a better fit for the Battlecruisers.

+1
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#743 - 2014-05-26 11:52:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:

Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.



YTES they are! BEcause peopel KNOW us and do never engage us without 5:1 advantage! The only way we can have FIGHTs (and on this ia m not countign stalking and ganking a mission runner, but real fights) is presentign us with a massive numerican disadvantage. And when we do that the ONLY way to apply skill in this game is range control and forcing the enemy gang toseparate.

That is why forcign everythign into brwaling is stupid. Brawling has ZERO space for pilot skills. Brawling is approach and FIRE and spam neeed armor on fleet channel.


Combat must include MORE mobility, MORE kiting not less. COmbat must prize the inteligence, not press aproach and F1.





Much rage and hyperbole? I've never heard of you or your corp and I sincerely doubt anyone else would know you either. And even if you were from a known PVP corp, your argument still wouldn't hold true. Nobody blobs anyone just because they are from a certain corp.

Your understanding of competent brawling appears flawed, approach & F1 works only in very limited situations where the outcome was pretty much decided on the fitting screen. This is exactly the same as in easy kiting fights- press orbit and F1. However, most engagements require the same piloting skills: manual flying, target prioritising, module micromanagement (active tanking is much more prominent in brawling than kiting), knowing when to disengage and having the skills required to accomplish that.

I have a few thousand solo and small gang kills across my characters, and I've flown both kiting and brawling set ups across all the ship classes (well ok, never flown the only kiting bs) and I honestly can't agree with your "intelligence and skills" argument favouring kiting. They are simply different methods, each with their strengths and right times and places.
Shivanthar
#744 - 2014-05-26 13:22:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Draco Knight wrote:
On grid teleporting is the worst idea ever conceived PERIOD.

No, the ability to move massive amounts of material or capitol ships immense distances in the blink of an eye was the worst idea ever.
The ability to chose to be able to tactically reposition on grid every 3 minutes (give or take) as a fitting option is a complex option to balance properly, but not necessarily a bad idea.

Both are complex options to balance properly.
I'm arguing at least that battleships being given this option was a really good idea and has worked somewhat to make them more popular. Extending this option to lower classes of ships will just move battleships back into obscurity.


Exactly my point of view.
While Han Solo was shitting his pants while escaping from imperial battleship, eve frigate pilots are feeling safe around BS because they're "under guns". BS's are something that must be feared from, at least RP perspective. Where are my flaks! Twisted

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#745 - 2014-05-26 14:12:19 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Draco Knight wrote:
On grid teleporting is the worst idea ever conceived PERIOD.

No, the ability to move massive amounts of material or capitol ships immense distances in the blink of an eye was the worst idea ever.
The ability to chose to be able to tactically reposition on grid every 3 minutes (give or take) as a fitting option is a complex option to balance properly, but not necessarily a bad idea.

Both are complex options to balance properly.
I'm arguing at least that battleships being given this option was a really good idea and has worked somewhat to make them more popular. Extending this option to lower classes of ships will just move battleships back into obscurity.


Exactly my point of view.
While Han Solo was shitting his pants while escaping from imperial battleship, eve frigate pilots are feeling safe around BS because they're "under guns". BS's are something that must be feared from, at least RP perspective. Where are my flaks! Twisted


I understand the need for smaller ships to be able to fly under the guns and missiles of Battles ships game wise.

though what I don't understand is the ease in which battles ships are tackled/webbed/jammed/ dampned, and the insane locking times Battleships have.

Battleships should not be rendered helpless by a single frigate so to speak

I think to make Battleships more interesting without, making smaller ships useless should come from E-war resistance.

this could be done by either giving E-war sizes like weapons, or by making them use more powergrid depending on the ships mass.

aside from that removing the extreme differences on the locking time between frigates and battleships should be one of the first steps.

Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#746 - 2014-05-26 17:45:18 UTC
Bad Idea in My opinion, Large Micro Jump drives made taking on battleships 10x more difficult, especially the ones designed to fight up close as is.

Then you introduced the Mobile Micro Jump units, which allow almost everything to jump away from a fight, making the long point even more uselss

Now these? Your just making it impossible to catch and kill anything anymore, might as well delete the long point entirely at this point when these go live

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Kane Fenris
NWP
#747 - 2014-05-27 08:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Aiyshimin wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:

Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.



YTES they are! BEcause peopel KNOW us and do never engage us without 5:1 advantage! The only way we can have FIGHTs (and on this ia m not countign stalking and ganking a mission runner, but real fights) is presentign us with a massive numerican disadvantage. And when we do that the ONLY way to apply skill in this game is range control and forcing the enemy gang toseparate.

That is why forcign everythign into brwaling is stupid. Brawling has ZERO space for pilot skills. Brawling is approach and FIRE and spam neeed armor on fleet channel.


Combat must include MORE mobility, MORE kiting not less. COmbat must prize the inteligence, not press aproach and F1.





Much rage and hyperbole? I've never heard of you or your corp and I sincerely doubt anyone else would know you either. And even if you were from a known PVP corp, your argument still wouldn't hold true. Nobody blobs anyone just because they are from a certain corp.

Your understanding of competent brawling appears flawed, approach & F1 works only in very limited situations where the outcome was pretty much decided on the fitting screen. This is exactly the same as in easy kiting fights- press orbit and F1. However, most engagements require the same piloting skills: manual flying, target prioritising, module micromanagement (active tanking is much more prominent in brawling than kiting), knowing when to disengage and having the skills required to accomplish that.

I have a few thousand solo and small gang kills across my characters, and I've flown both kiting and brawling set ups across all the ship classes (well ok, never flown the only kiting bs) and I honestly can't agree with your "intelligence and skills" argument favouring kiting. They are simply different methods, each with their strengths and right times and places.


sry i often disagree with Kagura Nikon but here "she" is plain right there is a huge problem in the game getting fights mostly your only chance is to fight while outnumbered. (not counting blob gatecamping or scaning mission runners etc...)
if you dont wanna die horribly when outnumbered you have to do kiteing tactics.

havt read the whole discussion between u2 but im against the mmjd in its proposed form cause i think it will break more than it will fix.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#748 - 2014-05-27 08:39:37 UTC
I still find it hilarious that the people who are so against this module are completely ignoring how difficult it is to fit a MJD and an MWD to a CBC. That mid slot is super valuable (especially on shield tanks) and the utility, dps and projection you lose from having to downgrade weapons and modules is also crippling.

The balance is in the fitting. Trust me. You will still see plenty of CBC's without MJD's fitted because they are a pain to fit. MJD fitted CBC's will still be catchable and killable too.

This seems to be a rediculous reaction from people. I do still find this thread hilarious though so keep up the nerd rage. Your tears are very sweet.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#749 - 2014-05-27 11:46:24 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:

sry i often disagree with Kagura Nikon but here "she" is plain right there is a huge problem in the game getting fights mostly your only chance is to fight while outnumbered. (not counting blob gatecamping or scaning mission runners etc...)
if you dont wanna die horribly when outnumbered you have to do kiteing tactics.

havt read the whole discussion between u2 but im against the mmjd in its proposed form cause i think it will break more than it will fix.


I'm sorry but that's simply not true on an objective level. People fight in EVE all the time, even we in deep wormhole space find fights on a regular basis. I've personally never had trouble finding the much valued "fair 1vs1s". This may be a matter of location in your case, and if you seriously have trouble finding good fights I'd suggest you move to another region.

Anyway, while this MMJD has the range issue (it's too long for tactical use on CBCs), I've yet to read a single even half-convincing argument that it would somehow reduce PVP.


spoon Nardieu
apex inverted
#750 - 2014-05-27 12:23:04 UTC
To clarify is the oracle, nado, naga, included in the use of the module.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#751 - 2014-05-27 12:31:09 UTC
spoon Nardieu wrote:
To clarify is the oracle, nado, naga, included in the use of the module.


No, ABCs can't fit MMJD.

Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#752 - 2014-05-27 22:32:20 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
spoon Nardieu wrote:
To clarify is the oracle, nado, naga, included in the use of the module.


No, ABCs can't fit MMJD.




Wish the Talos could though. That thing would suit a MJD
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#753 - 2014-05-28 05:09:31 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
So now PL vultures cant be bubbled. Seems legit.

And you cant tackle sniping nagas with out a scram.

I guess maybe you could always start flying a sniping Naga?

I can see it now - Face off - Sniping Nagas at 100k Blink

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Syon Tavor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#754 - 2014-05-28 15:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Syon Tavor
::snip:: double post
Syon Tavor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#755 - 2014-05-28 15:34:14 UTC
Rasta we wrote:
This Game has already become a carebear fest.

Please, for the love of all that is great, Stop putting in escape tactics into the game!

War

p mechanics make it almost impossible to catch someone who's got a heart beat in anything other then a interceptor.

Now your gonna make it a requirement for that interceptor to need a Web AND a scram to actually catch anything it has a chance of catching?

How about this situation that i see daily..

Pray warps into mission.. MJD's.. shoots.. then MJD's again. Hostile comes in.. scans him down.. warps to his mission.. and the guy is 300km away.

Or how about this, Someone afk ratting in a belt of 20.. You jump in, start D-scan and find them within seconds.. warp to his location. Just as you land he MJD's.. lands at full speed then warps.

These tactics are ruining the game for everyone other then farmers and cearbears. What about the people who like small scale roams and solo engagements? You can only really catch anything these days on a gate, and if your alone or in a small group.. they simply burn back to gate and split your force.. or cause you to do the stupid Stargate waiting game..

Also, please get rid of the interdiction bubbles that don't stop anything already initiating warp..

i think it's crazy that all a pilot has to do it click "warp" before i light my bubble before it'll catch him. again.. another mechanic designed to enable farmers and hate on anyone that actually takes part in PvP

Back in my day we actually used pilot skill to disengage and escape.. Whats the problem with keeping it like that?XXXXX



How can they MJD if they are afk ratting?

Landing on grid uncloaked while hunting missioners, see anything wrong with that statement?

You want your solo playstyle supported but not any others, hypocritical much?

Good luck going anywhere in null if bubbles deployed after warp drag you out. Group travel will be mandatory unless the system is empty. Dictors will have warp speed rigs, acendancy implants and bookmarks midway between every celestial. One pilot could lock down a system for hours. Fun, maybe. Tell us how you like it after that sabre won't let you leave system because he warps faster; watches you warp, beats you to your target, drops a bubble and watches as you land in the bubble he just put up. Thanks, you just broke d-scan as an intel tool.

Asking for a removal of escape tactics when counters are easily available screams of someone wanting a care bear pvp twitch game. Go back to CoD.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#756 - 2014-05-28 17:04:11 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I still find it hilarious that the people who are so against this module are completely ignoring how difficult it is to fit a MJD and an MWD to a CBC. That mid slot is super valuable (especially on shield tanks) and the utility, dps and projection you lose from having to downgrade weapons and modules is also crippling.

The balance is in the fitting. Trust me. You will still see plenty of CBC's without MJD's fitted because they are a pain to fit. MJD fitted CBC's will still be catchable and killable too.


This.

You can fit just an MWD and nothing changes; you can fit just an MMJD and be able to "blink" out of points and bubbles, but at the cost of not being able to close with anything, because battleships can outrun you. Or you can fit both and fly a severely compromised fit.

It's not a win button.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#757 - 2014-05-28 18:49:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive!
...
Let us know what you think!

For your enablement of pansification in those wishing to avoid combat with this proposal, we regrettably must add an unprecedented +5 to the Kill-It-Forward queue.

No less than five innocent carebears will be murdered in hisec, and advised it was because of your proposed changes.

Your heresies, our hands, their blood, your conscience.

F

p.s.
If every proposed change by CCP isn't washed through a 'does it increase or decrease the likelihood of conflict' ombudsman of HTFU, you have completely lost the plot IMHO.
Darth Fett
Iris Covenant
The Gorgon Empire
#758 - 2014-05-28 20:33:16 UTC
Hello Fozzie, I hope you still reading this topic.
Implementing MJD with current TQ mechanig is a big mistake - becouse currently it stupid "save me" button, warp stabilizer with infinite streight.
Some years ago lock range+scan resolution penalties was addet to warp stabilizers, becouse of PVP, in that you cannot win becouse of opponent can leave in any time - is wasting of time.
But now you added warp stab with infinite streight without penalties. Why?
If you think that kiters too overpowered - nerf them. Currently speed balance is completely broken. Cruisers flying faster that destroyers and even frigates, battleships faster that battlecruisers. Ishtars (cruiser!) carrying large weapons, that annihilating all in 100+km range, almost immune to ewar, and still receiving only boost in new patch.
If you want to add another type of combat maneuring - add penalty, that will offline ship warp core for 1 minute if MJD activated under warp disruptor.
Maraner
The Executioners
#759 - 2014-05-28 23:17:33 UTC
I'm surprised so many people see this module as a possible get out of jail free card.

To me it has lots of potential to let us kill more peeps.

Yes if you want to tackle a CBC you may want to be thinking about a scram now for certain. CBCs have become a greatly reduced sight since the rebalances and nerfs prior to the release of the navy versions on them, I cant think of the last time that I came across a fleet of them anywhere.

So the MJD will perhaps make them seen a bit more both in low and 0.0 fights, this must be a good thing. Certainly beats only seeing fleets of drone assist nano ishtars. At least in a CBC it's you pushing the F1 key not the person that you assigned your drones to.

For myself I will be using small gangs of these ships to MJD TOWARDS the bad guys. People that like to kite battlecruisers, which lets face it at almost zero risk to them, so I for one welcome this module with open arms. I can see all these ships bouncing around the grid to enable warp ins (and yes get away) as rather fun.

The one change I would add is to allow the HIC focused point to work against MJD ships. This is a change that should have happened some time ago. At the moment all you get are snipe fleets at range warping around to avoid bubbles, or tengu setups that cant be probed. Where is the good old fashioned club wielding gang of BS / BC I ask? Consigned to history because range setups makes them very vulnerable, the MJD will hopefully restore this.

Oh and fit a fricken scram if you want to really tackle something. Complaining that you cant keep at range and kill the helpless ship is not a winning argument it just makes you sound like a gutless prick looking for easy kills.

Thanks CCP Fozzie for this change, well needed and much looked forward to by a lot of people.




Vulfen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#760 - 2014-05-29 09:50:53 UTC
I like this change in some ways and hate it in others. firstly i dont think 100km is the best burst for these ships to launch at, CCP need to make it so you can activate the device and spool it up to a point you want to jump to, giving them more flexibility, if you were to burst further then the reactivation time should be longer.

Currently the only Combat BCs that will gain a good benefit from this module is the Ferox hulls, as they are the only range based Combat BC.

On the plus side i think the introduction of this module opens up a chance for CCP to make a new T2 BC line that utilises these in some new design