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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

First post First post First post
Author
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#721 - 2014-05-23 17:37:30 UTC
"If I mess up in my superior strategy kiting ship I will die, because of that MJD is OP (and lets forget about how that generally doesn't happen lol)"
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#722 - 2014-05-23 17:43:19 UTC
X4me1eoH wrote:

I'f you see, in all situation not in scram range, new BC's can warp out. I think it very disbalansed, and remind "I WIN' button.


If you see, in all situation not in scram range, existing fast kiter can warp out. I think it very disbalanced, and remind "I WIN' button.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#723 - 2014-05-23 20:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If you cannot kill a kiter when you have 3:! numeric advantage it is your OWN DAMM FAULT! Why in hell hese peopel that complain so much of kiters brign a 20 person fleet to fight 3 kiters and bring NOT A SINGLE RAPIER?


BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID and want to not have to use their brains.


So apparently that's their fault, but you not bringing ONE pilot with a scram for a slow, telegraphed event every THREE minutes is somehow not yours?

You have a severe self entitlement issue there.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#724 - 2014-05-23 20:16:37 UTC
Hey CCP features and ideas!

What about making MJDs script-able?

Reduce them to about 75% of their current attributes (distance, cooldown, spool?), and then add scripts to increase them all to current levels, or reduce them to 50% of their current levels. Or just two of the variables and leave the third at a set amount?

Balance as you see fit, of course. I like the idea of more options for this module. It also adds uncertainty when you see that pretty spool-up effect.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#725 - 2014-05-23 20:51:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If you cannot kill a kiter when you have 3:! numeric advantage it is your OWN DAMM FAULT! Why in hell hese peopel that complain so much of kiters brign a 20 person fleet to fight 3 kiters and bring NOT A SINGLE RAPIER?


BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID and want to not have to use their brains.


So apparently that's their fault, but you not bringing ONE pilot with a scram for a slow, telegraphed event every THREE minutes is somehow not yours?

You have a severe self entitlement issue there.


lel
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#726 - 2014-05-24 06:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiyshimin
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup"
I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.

No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community.


Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links.





Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times.

Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win.

That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast.


Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more.

If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what.

At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend.


Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.

But why would you have to stay tackled if the local spikes? Disengage. Again, the skills issue.

Scram is actually the best counter to kiters, which by itself makes it viable in many situations. Again, you need skill to get into scram range of a typical linked "solo" kiter.

Flying a ship with scram requires not only skills, but balls (this concept may be unknown to hisec people) since you actually risk your ship, and aren't guaranteed a clean exit based on your fit like when kiting. Now when a module that does not guarantee a clean exit on some ships is introduced, you claim this hurts PVP?

Anyway, the whining of these risk-averse pilots drowns the real issue- MMJD range is too long to make it an interesting module to fit on CBCs. Short range of CBCs marginalizes this module instead of making it a tactical choice, CCP pleas make it 50km. It would still make the whiners butthurt, but also make solo CBCs a bit more viable in the current meta.
Liafcipe9000
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#727 - 2014-05-24 11:12:45 UTC
Shocked
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#728 - 2014-05-24 12:47:40 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup"
I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.

No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community.


Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links.





Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times.

Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win.

That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast.


Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more.

If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what.

At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend.


Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.

But why would you have to stay tackled if the local spikes? Disengage. Again, the skills issue.

Scram is actually the best counter to kiters, which by itself makes it viable in many situations. Again, you need skill to get into scram range of a typical linked "solo" kiter.

Flying a ship with scram requires not only skills, but balls (this concept may be unknown to hisec people) since you actually risk your ship, and aren't guaranteed a clean exit based on your fit like when kiting. Now when a module that does not guarantee a clean exit on some ships is introduced, you claim this hurts PVP?

Anyway, the whining of these risk-averse pilots drowns the real issue- MMJD range is too long to make it an interesting module to fit on CBCs. Short range of CBCs marginalizes this module instead of making it a tactical choice, CCP pleas make it 50km. It would still make the whiners butthurt, but also make solo CBCs a bit more viable in the current meta.


50k is still too long. If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#729 - 2014-05-24 13:05:18 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup"
I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.

No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community.


Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links.





Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times.

Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win.

That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast.


Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more.

If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what.

At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend.


Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.

But why would you have to stay tackled if the local spikes? Disengage. Again, the skills issue.

Scram is actually the best counter to kiters, which by itself makes it viable in many situations. Again, you need skill to get into scram range of a typical linked "solo" kiter.

Flying a ship with scram requires not only skills, but balls (this concept may be unknown to hisec people) since you actually risk your ship, and aren't guaranteed a clean exit based on your fit like when kiting. Now when a module that does not guarantee a clean exit on some ships is introduced, you claim this hurts PVP?

Anyway, the whining of these risk-averse pilots drowns the real issue- MMJD range is too long to make it an interesting module to fit on CBCs. Short range of CBCs marginalizes this module instead of making it a tactical choice, CCP pleas make it 50km. It would still make the whiners butthurt, but also make solo CBCs a bit more viable in the current meta.


50k is still too long. If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card.


You're so obvious it's funny.
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
#730 - 2014-05-24 15:50:55 UTC
Hello CCP, sry for my Eng, I`m from Ru community and would like to convey to you an overall assessment of Ru PvP pilots from eve-ru forum. There are several things that cause issues, maybe they were previously announced here, forgive, if so =)

I want see on problems with MMJD from two different positions: 1st-solo PvP, 2nd-roaming fleet PvP.

1st position:
-If I kite ship with warpdis (Cynabal, Vagabond, NOmen etc.) I can`t tackle close BC in open space (out of gates and stations), because he can jump out. I think you break this balance between close range ships (big DPS and tank, but slow and can`t way out if open cyno, because it`s scram range) and kite ships (low DPS, low tank, but big speed and warp dis range). But if I kite ship, I`m very bad kill close BC, because he has a lot of tank and he too can damage me, but if we near gate or station he can go into station or gate from me. I have a big problems on kite ship with killing BC now, after MMJD I can`t kill BC never.
- If I`m on big tank and big DPS ship (scram range), then there is no sense of MMJD (scram range). That is, such actions you enter imbalance between ships with warp dis and warp scram, but it does not give any opportunity BC to attack the kiter, just to get away, too little sense.

2nd position:
-Our gang (close range crusers (Augoror Navy)) camp in null gate with Sabre, passes to us gang of MMJD Ferox, 90% Ferox`s jump out and work on your`s optimals, we approch to-> and 50% pilots die, but wen we be near (20km) they are again jump out. There are no adequate ways to not let them go.
-About Attack BC, I think you understand that if you give MMJD them it was a realy BIG BIG BIG problem for all fleet formats, we`ll all fly on Naga... again. And this format have no counter mearse, NOPirate
-BC is hot BS, and it big difference. BC have low price, low SP and very very mass ship. But on BS LMJD too imbalance, but you have not noticed, because by BS do not fly roam fleets, only CTA fleet.

So, I see 3 problems with it and way out from it:

1st:eed to somehow give solo pilots disable MMJD without going into scram range (faction warp dis can disabled MMJD) or give jump range <50km or give big couldawn (100-150% bonus from LMJD) for MMJD.

2nd: Interdiction probe, interdiction sphere/beam disabled MMJD (and maybe LMJD too), I think this is true with respect to the role of these ships, because they loose your role in fleet.

3nd: Warp dis from interceptor disabled all MJD (now BS on anomalies can jump out, and nullifire don`t help interceptors when you balance them). But you must change nullifire bonus to warp dis bonus (warp dis disabled all MJD).

PS: Better way it`s give MMJD only for Transports, so no need to find a balance with this OMG MJD that can not be found <75%
Colman Dietmar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#731 - 2014-05-24 17:20:37 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card.


I'd like to see something like that, maybe also on cruisers, but the cooldown and activation time would both need to be much shorter.

But I also like the 100km MJD, so wouldn't mind having two different kinds.
CW Itovuo
The Executioners
#732 - 2014-05-25 00:18:39 UTC
Skip Drive: consider making the jump distance a RANDOM amount, rather than fixed.

It can either save your bacon, or put you into the frying pan.




Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#733 - 2014-05-25 08:19:54 UTC
Colman Dietmar wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card.


I'd like to see something like that, maybe also on cruisers, but the cooldown and activation time would both need to be much shorter.

But I also like the 100km MJD, so wouldn't mind having two different kinds.


The reason for MJD is to give slow/sluggish ships a strategy to at least have a chance against kiters. Ships that ARE fast don't need this module are would become severely OP if they'd get it so frigates and cruisers should never get this module.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#734 - 2014-05-25 17:55:49 UTC
Quote:
Ships that ARE fast don't need this module are would become severely OP if they'd get it so frigates and cruisers should never get this module.


Heavy brawling cruisers aren't much faster than battlecruisers in some cases. Granted, CCP should probably do something about the pants-on-head ******** nature of the current within class dichotomy between brawlers and kiters rather than just slap an MJD on everything and call it a day, but it's not just CBCs that have an issue.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#735 - 2014-05-25 21:16:39 UTC
It is my opinion that this may actually help bring the rail ferox back into vogue. Since rail naga is out for mjd, it stands to reason that this would benefit the ferox immensely and help distinguish it from the naga more.
Rasta we
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#736 - 2014-05-26 08:06:02 UTC
This Game has already become a carebear fest.

Please, for the love of all that is great, Stop putting in escape tactics into the game!

Warp mechanics make it almost impossible to catch someone who's got a heart beat in anything other then a interceptor.

Now your gonna make it a requirement for that interceptor to need a Web AND a scram to actually catch anything it has a chance of catching?

How about this situation that i see daily..

Pray warps into mission.. MJD's.. shoots.. then MJD's again. Hostile comes in.. scans him down.. warps to his mission.. and the guy is 300km away.

Or how about this, Someone afk ratting in a belt of 20.. You jump in, start D-scan and find them within seconds.. warp to his location. Just as you land he MJD's.. lands at full speed then warps.

These tactics are ruining the game for everyone other then farmers and cearbears. What about the people who like small scale roams and solo engagements? You can only really catch anything these days on a gate, and if your alone or in a small group.. they simply burn back to gate and split your force.. or cause you to do the stupid Stargate waiting game..

Also, please get rid of the interdiction bubbles that don't stop anything already initiating warp..

i think it's crazy that all a pilot has to do it click "warp" before i light my bubble before it'll catch him. again.. another mechanic designed to enable farmers and hate on anyone that actually takes part in PvP

Back in my day we actually used pilot skill to disengage and escape.. Whats the problem with keeping it like that?XXXXX

ORLICZ
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#737 - 2014-05-26 08:23:15 UTC
Rasta we wrote:
This Game has already become a carebear fest.

Please, for the love of all that is great, Stop putting in escape tactics into the game!

Warp mechanics make it almost impossible to catch someone who's got a heart beat in anything other then a interceptor.

Now your gonna make it a requirement for that interceptor to need a Web AND a scram to actually catch anything it has a chance of catching?

How about this situation that i see daily..

Pray warps into mission.. MJD's.. shoots.. then MJD's again. Hostile comes in.. scans him down.. warps to his mission.. and the guy is 300km away.

Or how about this, Someone afk ratting in a belt of 20.. You jump in, start D-scan and find them within seconds.. warp to his location. Just as you land he MJD's.. lands at full speed then warps.

These tactics are ruining the game for everyone other then farmers and cearbears. What about the people who like small scale roams and solo engagements? You can only really catch anything these days on a gate, and if your alone or in a small group.. they simply burn back to gate and split your force.. or cause you to do the stupid Stargate waiting game..

Also, please get rid of the interdiction bubbles that don't stop anything already initiating warp..

i think it's crazy that all a pilot has to do it click "warp" before i light my bubble before it'll catch him. again.. another mechanic designed to enable farmers and hate on anyone that actually takes part in PvP

Back in my day we actually used pilot skill to disengage and escape.. Whats the problem with keeping it like that?XXXXX



this! we want more fun, more adrenaline
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#738 - 2014-05-26 09:41:19 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If you cannot kill a kiter when you have 3:! numeric advantage it is your OWN DAMM FAULT! Why in hell hese peopel that complain so much of kiters brign a 20 person fleet to fight 3 kiters and bring NOT A SINGLE RAPIER?


BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID and want to not have to use their brains.


So apparently that's their fault, but you not bringing ONE pilot with a scram for a slow, telegraphed event every THREE minutes is somehow not yours?

You have a severe self entitlement issue there.



How can you brin g an extra pilot and keep it SOLO? Didyou even read the thread? This change changes NOTHIGN for larger groups combat. But it is massively detrimental to solo and pair pvp.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#739 - 2014-05-26 09:45:20 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:

Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.



YTES they are! BEcause peopel KNOW us and do never engage us without 5:1 advantage! The only way we can have FIGHTs (and on this ia m not countign stalking and ganking a mission runner, but real fights) is presentign us with a massive numerican disadvantage. And when we do that the ONLY way to apply skill in this game is range control and forcing the enemy gang toseparate.

That is why forcign everythign into brwaling is stupid. Brawling has ZERO space for pilot skills. Brawling is approach and FIRE and spam neeed armor on fleet channel.


Combat must include MORE mobility, MORE kiting not less. COmbat must prize the inteligence, not press aproach and F1.



"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#740 - 2014-05-26 09:59:59 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
So far I haven't seen any well thought out logic or reasoning from you other than "DOOM, GLOOM, CTHULHU WTF".

You even disqualify your own statements by stating that some stat changes on MJD might fix the "problems".



nice edit;

It's always a good sign when people suddenly stop discussing the subject and start pulling the character card. It means they ran out of arguments and (better yet) they even realise it themselves. Thanks for playing.



Nope. I am just disqualify YOUR ARGUMENT. Since as long as you post with a NPC corp character you can be very well someone that NEVER participated in ANY PVP, and have no clue on your statements (altough almost everythign else you post already support that). Youcould be just a carebear.


Want your arguments to be takesn seriously? Shyow your face. Show why we shoudl believe you know what you are saying.

We had several posts from groups very well known for small scale high level PVP, basically all against your opinion.

The character card is not because someone does not have more arguments. It is because we noticed that is futile to discuss with someone that have given us zero reasons to take him seriously.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"