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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

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45thtiger 0109
Living Breathing Fuel Blocks
#221 - 2014-05-20 00:36:21 UTC
Saul Hyperion wrote:
Medium MJD?

CCP pls no.



CCP Please yes lol LolP

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Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#222 - 2014-05-20 01:04:55 UTC
I owned a Bustard once I think its still stuck in Delve? Lost to time is really the best fate for any DST

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Anathema Device
State War Academy
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-05-20 02:42:28 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Currently the DSTs see next to no use. They don't hold more than their T1 counterparts, often holding much less. The only thing they have going for them is a bit more tank and +2 WCS but most people are rightfully cautious about not moving T1 industrials or DSTs in dangerous areas.

DSTs make perfect HiSec, carebear, high value cargo haulers. The increase in tank is reinforcing that carebear roll. Maybe CCP needs to be rename DSTs to more accurately reflect their actual roll in game.
Alexis Nightwish
#224 - 2014-05-20 03:32:38 UTC
Innominate wrote:
The job of a deep space transport is to operate in areas which may not be completely safe. Their role is not to be able to run gatecamps or dodge fleets, that is what blockade runners are for. A deep space transport is about being able to operate with things like lone interceptors or stealth bombers around that would easily kill a T1 industrial. If you jump it into a well set up gatecamp, it should still die.

The fact that the warp scramblers are unaffected by warp core strength renders the mwd/mjd virtually pointless on these things. If they can warp out, they don't need the mwd/mjd, and when they can't warp out the mwd/mjd option is gone already anyways. Being able to mjd out of a bubble isn't much good when it only takes a single warp scram to kill it. This is a minor point but it's annoying given that the the mjd was given specifically to these hulls.

The fleet hangar is a problem. It's great in theory, big cargo that doesn't depend on fitting is wonderful. To not be able to do POS work from it utterly removes the ships best potential role.


You said exactly what I was thinking.

The only thing I'd add is why is CCP starting to homogenize their ships? I've seen this on the BR's fitting change (Prowler no longer has the most highs; they all have 2), the freighter nerf (they all have almost the exact same cargo space), and how with the DSTs having the exact same cargo and hangar space. Something I love about EVE is that each race's ships of the same class are slightly different, so they each have their own flavor, and that seems to be going away...


BTW, Innominate, that mouth on your pic? Jesus Christ I lol'd XD

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

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Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#225 - 2014-05-20 06:31:38 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
Point is, that with these specialized ships the trade offs that you have with the combat ships for instance, are not the same.
On a combat ship a midslot can be used for e-war for instance, there isn't any need for e-war on these ships. so 5 or 6 midslots isn't a real thing. that extra low slot can be used to cancel out that mid slot. it can hold a DCU, or an extra cargo extender and fill it with cap boosters, to name 2 or it can be used to be faster, more agile, have a larger cargo hold, or be more warp stable.

Do cargo extenders affect Fleet Hangars? Honestly don't know as I've never flown a ship with them. If not, as it stands now, extra cargo space isn't really a thing for these ships. (Which I like: flying an Impel, I don't need to choose between tank and cargo, which has been an annoyance as base cargo always got nerfed to counter all the lows.)

Keep in mind the midslots can also be used for propulsion mods, especially useful with MMJDs, as well as supporting extra cap.


I was talking about the regular cargo bay.

And no cargo extenders do not affect the fleet hanger, but from experience I know that next to the Fleet hanger you really would like some extra cargo space for extra modules and other useful stuff, The fleet hanger can only carry ships, with fitted modules and ammo/boosters, no thing else.

so it would be nice to have a little extra normal cargo space just for the sake of not having to fly these ships completely empty back to the place of origin, The Orca has it's ore bay, carriers can Jump and have a enormous amount of drones. The DST's should have a decent cargo bay as well, they are transports
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#226 - 2014-05-20 06:53:12 UTC
The Fleet Hanger should not be confused with the Ship Maintenance Bay.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Shivanthar
#227 - 2014-05-20 07:19:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
AAAHAHAHA!

These things are going to be great pvp haulersTwisted

Marlona Sky needs to see this.


OMG, I've never seen this man had an evil laugh like this ShockedLol

I've a noob question tough: I used this to transport stuff around but I saw its cargo hold is being reduced. Will that "fleet hangar" work for me without actually being in fleet?
More appropriate question would be, how can fleet hangars be used? Can someone direct me to a good thread/site?

Thx.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#228 - 2014-05-20 07:25:40 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
The Fleet Hanger should not be confused with the Ship Maintenance Bay.



To be honest I considered them the same, would that mean that the fleet hangar allows to put extra cargo in the cargo bays?

In that case I stand corrected on a lot of my points.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#229 - 2014-05-20 07:34:30 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
AAAHAHAHA!

These things are going to be great pvp haulersTwisted

Marlona Sky needs to see this.


OMG, I've never seen this man had an evil laugh like this ShockedLol

I've a noob question tough: I used this to transport stuff around but I saw its cargo hold is being reduced. Will that "fleet hangar" work for me without actually being in fleet?
More appropriate question would be, how can fleet hangars be used? Can someone direct me to a good thread/site?

Thx.


The fleet hangar is like a regular cargobay, only that fleet members can access it as well and that it is not expandable/reducable by rigs or mods.

--

Mike Whiite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The Fleet Hanger should not be confused with the Ship Maintenance Bay.


To be honest I considered them the same, would that mean that the fleet hangar allows to put extra cargo in the cargo bays?

In that case I stand corrected on a lot of my points.


Fleet Hangar is a cargobay for modules and charges, which is accessible by fleet members. Iirc you cannot store assembled ships in there. In contrast, the Ship Maintenance Bay is only for assembled ships and can only store assembled ships with only items listed in the market under Ammunition & Charges in the cargohold, nothing else.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#230 - 2014-05-20 09:47:27 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


The fleet hangar is like a regular cargobay, only that fleet members can access it as well and that it is not expandable/reducable by rigs or mods.

--

Mike Whiite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The Fleet Hanger should not be confused with the Ship Maintenance Bay.


To be honest I considered them the same, would that mean that the fleet hangar allows to put extra cargo in the cargo bays?

In that case I stand corrected on a lot of my points.


Fleet Hangar is a cargobay for modules and charges, which is accessible by fleet members. Iirc you cannot store assembled ships in there. In contrast, the Ship Maintenance Bay is only for assembled ships and can only store assembled ships with only items listed in the market under Ammunition & Charges in the cargohold, nothing else.


I take a humble bow, I confused the Fleet Hangar with the Maintenance bay that changes a lot.


Still think there needs to be more difference between the ships though.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#231 - 2014-05-20 11:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey everyone. Allowing launching and scooping of structures from fleet hangars is something that needs more investigation, so we're increasing the standard cargo holds on all the DSTs so they can easily deploy and scoop structures.

We are also increasing the assembled volumes of the DSTs a bit, to keep the balance surrounding DSTs hauling cargo in ship maintenance bays.

We have discussed the questions surrounding hauling of battleships into C1 wormholes with the CSM and internally, and decided that we are ok with this function at this time. Using a DST to get a battleship into a C1 siege still requires the attackers to have their own starbase set up in the system for disassembly.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#232 - 2014-05-20 11:52:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.


Can we get some feedback on the bubble immunity thing for DSTs? Obviously it's a dumb idea for Blockade Runners, but replacing the DST warp core stability bonus with bubble immunity makes a lot of sense and isn't anywhere near as strong as it is on Interceptors / T3 cruisers.

Was the idea considered?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#233 - 2014-05-20 12:17:07 UTC
I notice these ships are keeping their hilariously long align times. are there any plans to deal with mwd warping, or mwd/cloak warping? or webbing things into warp?

it's pretty bad when you design ships with appropriately enormous align times, and then just fitting 1 easy module or having an alt in a throwaway frigate completely negates it. obviously this is abused on more 'important' ship classes than haulers/DSTs, and would rustle many people if it were ever fixed.
Grarr Dexx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2014-05-20 12:17:51 UTC
They don't need it. It'd make blockade runners useless since you might as well run the same blockade cloak warping with a DST hauling four times as much cargo.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#235 - 2014-05-20 12:19:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're increasing the standard cargo holds on all the DSTs


Anyone willing to do the math on the Occator and the Mastodon main cargoholds fitted for max cargo (Rigs, Expanders)? Personally not interested in opinions as to the intelligence of fitting one for such so your trolls will fall on deaf ears.
CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#236 - 2014-05-20 12:21:52 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
They don't need it. It'd make blockade runners useless since you might as well run the same blockade cloak warping with a DST hauling four times as much cargo.


Blockade runners would still be better for low-sec and covert ops work. DSTs would ignore bubbles but be vulnerable to infini-points, making them preferable for null-sec and wormholes.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#237 - 2014-05-20 12:24:03 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.


Can we get some feedback on the bubble immunity thing for DSTs? Obviously it's a dumb idea for Blockade Runners, but replacing the DST warp core stability bonus with bubble immunity makes a lot of sense and isn't anywhere near as strong as it is on Interceptors / T3 cruisers.

Was the idea considered?


The idea was considered and rejected as it would make DSTs too difficult to catch in nullsec and (especially) wormhole space and wouldn't provide much interesting gameplay.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Anthar Thebess
#238 - 2014-05-20 12:36:37 UTC
We already have to much nullified , MJD capable ships.
We don't need more.

Including those MJD for BattleCruisers.
G's Biatch
Four Brothers United
#239 - 2014-05-20 12:45:58 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Allowing launching and scooping of structures from fleet hangars is something that needs more investigation, so we're increasing the standard cargo holds on all the DSTs so they can easily deploy and scoop structures.

We are also increasing the assembled volumes of the DSTs a bit, to keep the balance surrounding DSTs hauling cargo in ship maintenance bays.

We have discussed the questions surrounding hauling of battleships into C1 wormholes with the CSM and internally, and decided that we are ok with this function at this time. Using a DST to get a battleship into a C1 siege still requires the attackers to have their own starbase set up in the system for disassembly.



Fozzie Can we fill the Fleet Hanger and place these ships in SMA's in cap ships, or will the Ammo only rule still apply?

Thanks
Grarr Dexx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#240 - 2014-05-20 12:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Grarr Dexx
CynoNet Two wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
They don't need it. It'd make blockade runners useless since you might as well run the same blockade cloak warping with a DST hauling four times as much cargo.


Blockade runners would still be better for low-sec and covert ops work. DSTs would ignore bubbles but be vulnerable to infini-points, making them preferable for null-sec and wormholes.


You can use infinite points in 0.0 too. The point I'm making is that it's pointless to have BRs if DSTs have bubble immunity, because it's just as easy to cloak warp DSTs as it is to warp a BR and hit the cloak button.

That's an issue with MWD cloak warping being a bullshit borderline exploit, though.