These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1521 - 2014-04-22 20:27:28 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
the standard factory station in highsec is a 50 slot 50% refinery and there are like eight per system in most factory systems in highsec

that is literally impossible to build in nullsec (you can get 50 slots in a refinery OR 50% refines), and you are limited to one station per system


I am not sure which systems you are talking about, but it must be in Caldari space. I don't know a lot of systems sought of Kaaputenen with that many stations and these specifications.

As said, it boggles my mind why CCP hasn't changed at least the slots and stats of 00 outpost earlier to make them competitive with High sec stations.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1522 - 2014-04-22 20:51:23 UTC
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1523 - 2014-04-22 20:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Rain6637 wrote:
because there's like, 2 people working on mechanics changes


It's been how many years now that the inferiority of 00 sec outposts is known? Roll

But you are right ... CCP had to add incursions, NEX, Captains Quarters, more NEX, ship skins, and so on before fixing that.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1524 - 2014-04-22 20:57:20 UTC
The best part of this thread is when people admit they don't know the first thing about nullsec mechanics. After having been arguing the merits of a change that impacts null and highsec. If you want to be successful in this game or at least successful at arguing the mechanics within it, perhaps it might be useful to actually know mechanics beyond your small corner of the game.

Shocking concept I know.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1525 - 2014-04-22 21:04:42 UTC
Nah, the best bit is finding out what the new changes will be, the rest is banter and waffle
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1526 - 2014-04-22 21:06:30 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
because there's like, 2 people working on mechanics changes


It's been how many years now that the inferiority of 00 sec outposts is known? Roll

But you are right ... CCP had to add incursions, NEX, Captains Quarters, more NEX, ship skins, and so on before fixing that.

why do you think we've been bitching about it for years

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1527 - 2014-04-22 21:10:02 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
because there's like, 2 people working on mechanics changes


It's been how many years now that the inferiority of 00 sec outposts is known? Roll

But you are right ... CCP had to add incursions, NEX, Captains Quarters, more NEX, ship skins, and so on before fixing that.

why do you think we've been bitching about it for years


That is the problem... but suddenly it is a hot topic and everyone wants changes that could and should have been made a lot earlier.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1528 - 2014-04-22 21:13:17 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Nah, the best bit is finding out what the new changes will be, the rest is banter and waffle


You will find it far less exciting when you have already theorycrafted every possible solution years in advance. I guess it just turns into relief then.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1529 - 2014-04-22 21:15:48 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
because there's like, 2 people working on mechanics changes


It's been how many years now that the inferiority of 00 sec outposts is known? Roll

But you are right ... CCP had to add incursions, NEX, Captains Quarters, more NEX, ship skins, and so on before fixing that.

why do you think we've been bitching about it for years


That is the problem... but suddenly it is a hot topic and everyone wants changes that could and should have been made a lot earlier.
It's been a topic of discussion for just about every security band based argument for years. It's not just suddenly coming up. I've seen and participated in many of them, more than enough to know it's has for a long time been a hot topic.

What we have here is a number of mostly non-participants to the long term discussion suddenly throwing their words around now that they are being faced with an impending change.
The Alienator
Quality Re-Assurance
#1530 - 2014-04-22 21:33:58 UTC
I'm going to preface this by getting a few points out there about my own experience in the game, in hopes of avoiding the "nullsec is awesome and elite and everyone else are scaredy-noobs" trolls.

I've been playing the game since late 2008. I have five active subscriptions which I actually PAY for.

I have lived and pewed in nullsec, lowsec & w-space for extended periods (about a year each). I've done FW. I've built & researched almost everything. I've done trade, industry, mining, exploration, etc.. I was a ninja-salvager with Suddenly Ninjas for years. Until recently I was part of Marmite (largely highsec PvP). I've ganked and been ganked. I've infiltrated corps and had corps infiltrated. I've even taken "a break" and once left the game completely for half a year. I have done it all, enjoyed most of it, made good friends and given CCP a LOT of money in exchange for that.

Change happens. I've seen it countless times. Sometimes I benefited from the changes, sometimes I lost huge amounts of ISK. I've lucked into situations where changes saved me months of skill training, and have trained alts for specific purposes only to have a change render months of training useless for my purpose. Sometimes change is great. Sometimes it sucks. Get over it. :)

These industry changes, though, are a symptom of a larger issue that has been making Eve much less fun for me over the last few years.

Mabrick captures it well: Building Better Worlds for Whom? Though I completely disagree with his idea that we should stop ganking in highsec, his other points are IMHO bang-on.

Ultimately it comes down the the fact that CCP has been gradually and relentlessly trying to FORCE me to play in nullsec, partially through efforts to make highsec safer & more new-player-friendly (let's nerf ninja salvaging and add safeties to our ships). These industry changes, however, won't help drive new subs and will probably have the opposite impact by making production in highsec very low-profit (if profitable at all). CCP has been clear that they want to promote "risk vs reward" which really means "let's force experienced players to nullsec". What CCP is doing is making it impossible for me to choose to play this "sandbox" game in a way that I enjoy. They are (and have been, slowly over time) eliminating my options and effectively forcing me to play the way THEY want me to, or quit. That sucks. Look at Skyrim's success. Look at Civilization. Look at Eve's early success... Now look at *insert game with strict linear story-line here*. Remember it? No? Because they fail! People like choice and hate being forced into things. We get enough of that in RL.

I've done nullsec & IMHO it sucks. If I wanted to be part of some mega-organization with a management structure driven by 20-somethings with power/self-esteem issues, I'd quit the game and spend my free time at work instead. I didn't join Eve to have that experience. I didn't join Eve to pay "rent" to a mega-corp for the privilege of getting access to a third-rate system with an empty local or to spend 12 hours in a TiDi slow-mo battle. I joined Eve to be my own person - I joined to explore a sandbox, make my own decisions, build relationships, make stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, profit and to destroy other peoples stuff. I've been to nullsec. I've got the t-shirt. It's not fun for me.

And that's ok. There are lots of people out there that have a different opinion of nullsec. It's their choice to live and play in nullsec. It's my choice to live in highsec and make forays into low, null and w-space when I want to. That's the key word here, CHOICE. Changes like this and CCP's 'risk vs reward' piling-on of benefits for nullsec play, have gotten ridiculous. I thought it was bad when they led all those lambs to slaughter during that live-event a few months ago, but it just doesn't stop. And nullsec is not nearly as "risky" as some like to claim. Nullsec can be very very dull and in some instances safer than highsec (depending on how/where you play).

If it would drive new subs I could buy into changes like this (or at least chalk it up to 's*** happens, get over it'), but these changes aren't about that. They're aimed squarely at FORCING experienced players into null.

Three of my accounts are focused on the highsec industry value-chain I've built and love managing. I can pick it up when I have a few spare minutes (unlike PvP, which I only do when I have time to do it properly). I have 100+ billion invested in BPO's, towers, mining ships, stock & transport ships but even without the details I can see that the only way to maintain these activities profitably is to move to null. Not by choice, but as a direct result of the changes CCP is proposing. Since I don't enjoy doing industry in nullsec my choices come down to maintaining an unprofitable/borderline business in highsec or leaving the business and focusing on other stuff.

I'm resigned to leaving the business - my free time is too valuable (cost & risk vs reward).

When the game time runs out on those three industry-focused accounts they won't be renewed. I've stopped training my industry and transport toons and am breeding toons on those accounts for sale. The stations are on the market. The BPO's will be researched until after the summer changes, then sold.

I'm not rage-quitting - I'm keeping 2 accounts for PvP - but Eve no longer gets my (frequent) casual game time. In the last week alone I've bought The Stick of Truth, Total War and other games. They give me CHOICES and are a really fun way to spend 30-60 minutes a day.

Stop eliminating player choice, Mmmkay? It's bad.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1531 - 2014-04-22 21:41:06 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
How much isk and effort did anyone in hisec have to spend to enjoy the perfect refineries with sub-par skills, level 4 missions, multiple stations per system with hundreds of manufacturing and research slots and dozens of offices in almost every system, gate guns, station guns, faction police, no bombs, no bubbles, and the ultimate mother-lode of all protection services, CONCORD?


Then complain to CCP that they should have fixed that earlier. I never understood why they put such terrible stations into the game in the first place or at least have upgraded them long ago. CONCORD exists in 00 sec. But as it is player driven, you actually have to be in fleets to respond to threats.


We have, and apparently they have listened as all stations are getting a rebalance. CONCORD does not exist in nulsec in any way, shape, or form. Players do not have Superman ships that web, paint, jam, damp, neut, tracking disrupt, scram, and deal 10kdps all at once. Nor do players insta-spawn on site in infinite numbers.

Quote:
You also compare the wrong regions. Instead of the least busy 00 region and the busiest region in the game you should have compared the either busiest regions of High sec and 00 sec (which is an entirely different region and would make The Forge look less extreme.Blink) or the least busy regions, where High sec and such 00 regions look very much alike.


I suppose expecting you to know just how busy Period Basis was over the course of 2012/2013 was expecting too much. It was home to the at one point over 5000 nerd strong alliance called Tribal Band, a pet and best brosef of TEST for a full year. It was very busy. Number of stations does not equal activity level. HIX4 was the market hub. While not Jita-level busy, it was often Amarr-level busy. The comparison was apt, if perhaps unknown to you.

Quote:

Soldarius wrote:

For the record, there are 358 50% refineries in the Forge alone.

In all of nulsec, there are 487. They are all Conquerable Outposts or NPC stations, rather than Player-Built Stations. This does not include any 50% player built stations. But those are few and far between because guess what, with 40% refinery, level 4 specialty skills and a 1% implant, you could get perfect refine/reprocessing.


Very interesting numbers. And now we level the game on the 00 sec numbers where player were and still are too lazy to build proper outposts? Or where players failed to demand better stations to make industry more worthwhile a long time ago? Roll

For the records: It is entirely the players fault that the 00 sec station landscape is what it is at the moment. But instead of fixing that, other areas where players actually cannot influence things (even though they are there plentiful) are changed. Very reasonable.


For the record (<--ftfy): You are so ignorant its hard to believe. I'm going to start calling you "W" because I'm sure you think we all own SUVs (supercaps) and can simply tote our entire lives around every time Hurricane Katrina (goons/PL/whoever) comes along and erases our city (sov).

We don't get to build "proper" outposts. We can only use the tools that CCP has given us. They gave us crap. So that is what we used. Meanwhile up in hisec, you got everything you could ever need at absolutely zero cost. Welcome to the real world, W.

Imagine dropping 100 hisec POCO gantries at once and you might have some idea of the scales we're talking about. Then, like the POCOs, you have to put more into them to actually get the station. Then you do it again to upgrade one aspect of your station. Then you do it again. And then you can do it again for an IHUB. Then you do it again for every stupid upgrade. A level 5 Pirate Entrapment Upgrade require a god-damned freighter to move. Risk, man. Risk!

Oh, yeah. And then some generic afk cloaker decides he want to deny your isk-generation activities thereby rendering billions in upgrades and all the effort we put into getting them in place absolutely useless, by the simple fact of his presence in local. (Valid game-play imo so don't even go there, I've done it myself.)

You, sir, have no concept of balance.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1532 - 2014-04-22 21:43:04 UTC
The Alienator wrote:
Stop eliminating player choice, Mmmkay? It's bad.

your entire post can be summarized as "you can't have rewards in nullsec, because I am in highsec!"

a player now who wishes to do industry must be in highsec. post-patch, a player faces a choice with tradeoffs, and can be in either null or highsec

you are whining up a storm over this new choice and trying to paint it as a choice elimination. it's not, you're just whining because highsec industry is no longer better in every way than 0.0

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Aeonidis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1533 - 2014-04-22 21:49:56 UTC
The Alienator wrote:
-snip to save space-

Stop eliminating player choice, Mmmkay? It's bad.



Nail---->Head.


For those that dont want to read everything he just wrote:

CCP you can smack me with the nerf bat till I'm stupid(or just being stupid) and put a carrot the size of god in null and I still wont play there. I'll just spend less time in your game.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1534 - 2014-04-22 21:51:32 UTC
Aeonidis wrote:

CCP you can smack me with the nerf bat till I'm stupid(or just being stupid) and put a carrot the size of god in null and I still wont play there. I'll just spend less time in your game.

carrots don't force you to do anything, besides whine on forums, and ccp clearly doesn't need to smack you with anything

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Aeonidis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1535 - 2014-04-22 22:03:13 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Aeonidis wrote:

CCP you can smack me with the nerf bat till I'm stupid(or just being stupid) and put a carrot the size of god in null and I still wont play there. I'll just spend less time in your game.

carrots don't force you to do anything, besides whine on forums, and ccp clearly doesn't need to smack you with anything



your barking up the wrong tree man I agree with these changes. I only wish they had been in place 4 years ago when I started this game and maybe I would have had more fun over those last 4 years with my 1 account and 2 hours a night instead of trying to compete with ppl that are plexing 10 accounts and still living in high sec. for the most part ppl like me are going to win and ppl like you are going to win. I dont really see the problem unless your living in high sec and trying to arm a 2000 man alliance these changes seem pretty good to me. xcept mineral compression, i did kinda like that.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1536 - 2014-04-22 22:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Banko Mato
I have the feeling, this turns into a "grr null" vs. "grr hisec" trench warfare...
Although i am heavily invested in highsec industry around T2 production, i really welcome the basic ideas behind the proposed changes (and unfortunately agree with a good portion of the goony statements). But (and that's a freakin huge BUT) on the other hand, until CCP provides us actual hard numbers, i keep being afraid, because this has a damn big potential on backfiring in epic ways if implemented poorly...

Therefore i dearly hope, that the next blogs on the list get out soon (without the ™), so we can have a knowledgable discussion instead of the bitching about why a certain area of space is inferior/superior/poorer/lamer/safer/whatsoeva

So please CCP, throw out more information!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1537 - 2014-04-22 22:05:59 UTC
Banko Mato wrote:
I have the feeling, this turns into a "grr null" vs. "grr hisec" trench warfare...
Although i am heavily invested in highsec industry around T2 production, i really welcome the basic ideas behind the proposed changes (and unfortunately agree with a good portion of the goony statements). But (and that's a freakin huge BUT) on the other hand, until CCP provides as actual hard numbers, i keep being afraid, because this has a damn big potential on backfiring in epic ways if implemented poorly...

Therefore i dearly hope, that the next blogs on the list get out soon (without the ™), so we can have a knowledgable discussion instead of the bitching about why a certain area of space is inferior/superior/poorer/lamer/safer/whatsoeva

So please CCP, throw out more information!

yeah i think we can all agree on MAKE WITH THE REST OF THE BLOGS AAAUGH

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1538 - 2014-04-22 22:12:28 UTC
That I do agree entirely on...
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1539 - 2014-04-22 22:13:16 UTC
the worst part is the next blog is the UI one which is likely to have the least info about balance changes and more be bizwoops and whizgigs that do not affect the bottom line :argh:

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Aeonidis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1540 - 2014-04-22 22:17:35 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
the worst part is the next blog is the UI one which is likely to have the least info about balance changes and more be bizwoops and whizgigs that do not affect the bottom line :argh:



:) almost like CCP donned a beekeepers suit smacked a hornets nest then sat down next to the tree with a coloring book.