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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1561 - 2014-04-23 02:51:13 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
The loss of remote jobs vastly increases the value at risk for any pos related industry work with BPO's. That is a giant nut crusher when you have multiple 1 billion isk plus BPO's in process at any one time. In the meantime we know exactly **** all about any changes to bonuses for POS arraysd and CCP having the audacity to charge us isk on top of already paying for POS fuels. And just because they haven't broken things enough, BPO's can't be locked down in a control tower.
Most of this is intentional, but the one main thing that was driving many POS related research jobs was slot availability. With that being resolved there becomes a whole different level of opportunity being ignored to focus on what a smaller set lost. It even provides a very handy out for dragging multi billion BPO's for researc in a POS. Yes, if you MUST use the POS for some self imposed reason there is a greater risk, but now it's at least a choice instead of being practically a mandate for getting some ME research done.
Urziel99
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1562 - 2014-04-23 03:03:35 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
The loss of remote jobs vastly increases the value at risk for any pos related industry work with BPO's. That is a giant nut crusher when you have multiple 1 billion isk plus BPO's in process at any one time. In the meantime we know exactly **** all about any changes to bonuses for POS arraysd and CCP having the audacity to charge us isk on top of already paying for POS fuels. And just because they haven't broken things enough, BPO's can't be locked down in a control tower.
Most of this is intentional, but the one main thing that was driving many POS related research jobs was slot availability. With that being resolved there becomes a whole different level of opportunity being ignored to focus on what a smaller set lost. It even provides a very handy out for dragging multi billion BPO's for researc in a POS. Yes, if you MUST use the POS for some self imposed reason there is a greater risk, but now it's at least a choice instead of being practically a mandate for getting some ME research done.


Considering how few science services are available in empire, the costs of research in station may be very pricy, also Tech 3 science and industry can't be done in stations. The question that is still lingering will be changes to speed bonuses for array use. Station services can be soul-crushingly slow, especially for T2 production.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1563 - 2014-04-23 03:12:39 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
The loss of remote jobs vastly increases the value at risk for any pos related industry work with BPO's. That is a giant nut crusher when you have multiple 1 billion isk plus BPO's in process at any one time. In the meantime we know exactly **** all about any changes to bonuses for POS arraysd and CCP having the audacity to charge us isk on top of already paying for POS fuels. And just because they haven't broken things enough, BPO's can't be locked down in a control tower.
Most of this is intentional, but the one main thing that was driving many POS related research jobs was slot availability. With that being resolved there becomes a whole different level of opportunity being ignored to focus on what a smaller set lost. It even provides a very handy out for dragging multi billion BPO's for researc in a POS. Yes, if you MUST use the POS for some self imposed reason there is a greater risk, but now it's at least a choice instead of being practically a mandate for getting some ME research done.
Considering how few science services are available in empire, the costs of research in station may be very pricy, also Tech 3 science and industry can't be done in stations. The question that is still lingering will be changes to speed bonuses for array use. Station services can be soul-crushingly slow, especially for T2 production.
We'll have to see how research scales, though if it has a reasonable cap like manufacturing does it won't be too much of an issue. T3 manufacture doesn't put your BPO's at risk, individual losses aren't nearly as crippling. Regarding times, we don't have the numbers to determine what the end result will be there, could stay the same, could be worse, could be better. We'll see, but there needs to be some give to make a POS worthwhile and again, if you do what will likely be cost capped research/invention in a station your risks to BPO's are still capped by your choices.
Vigilant
Vigilant's Vigilante's
#1564 - 2014-04-23 03:18:46 UTC
And the question remains of how much more pricy than running a POS (fuel, modules, and the risk factor)?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1565 - 2014-04-23 03:26:34 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
The loss of remote jobs vastly increases the value at risk for any pos related industry work with BPO's. That is a giant nut crusher when you have multiple 1 billion isk plus BPO's in process at any one time. In the meantime we know exactly **** all about any changes to bonuses for POS arraysd and CCP having the audacity to charge us isk on top of already paying for POS fuels. And just because they haven't broken things enough, BPO's can't be locked down in a control tower.
Most of this is intentional, but the one main thing that was driving many POS related research jobs was slot availability. With that being resolved there becomes a whole different level of opportunity being ignored to focus on what a smaller set lost. It even provides a very handy out for dragging multi billion BPO's for researc in a POS. Yes, if you MUST use the POS for some self imposed reason there is a greater risk, but now it's at least a choice instead of being practically a mandate for getting some ME research done.


Considering how few science services are available in empire, the costs of research in station may be very pricy, also Tech 3 science and industry can't be done in stations. The question that is still lingering will be changes to speed bonuses for array use. Station services can be soul-crushingly slow, especially for T2 production.


Don't worry about T2 invention. Read the blog again. It will be given the same treatment as high sec mfg and copying, but it won't happen until the fall / winter. By then, we will start to see what these seeds have sown, subscription wise. I asked on page 75 what the dev's expect the subscription fallout will be, and one of the chief architects of these changes answered.
Urziel99
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1566 - 2014-04-23 03:43:25 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
The loss of remote jobs vastly increases the value at risk for any pos related industry work with BPO's. That is a giant nut crusher when you have multiple 1 billion isk plus BPO's in process at any one time. In the meantime we know exactly **** all about any changes to bonuses for POS arraysd and CCP having the audacity to charge us isk on top of already paying for POS fuels. And just because they haven't broken things enough, BPO's can't be locked down in a control tower.
Most of this is intentional, but the one main thing that was driving many POS related research jobs was slot availability. With that being resolved there becomes a whole different level of opportunity being ignored to focus on what a smaller set lost. It even provides a very handy out for dragging multi billion BPO's for researc in a POS. Yes, if you MUST use the POS for some self imposed reason there is a greater risk, but now it's at least a choice instead of being practically a mandate for getting some ME research done.


Considering how few science services are available in empire, the costs of research in station may be very pricy, also Tech 3 science and industry can't be done in stations. The question that is still lingering will be changes to speed bonuses for array use. Station services can be soul-crushingly slow, especially for T2 production.


Don't worry about T2 invention. Read the blog again. It will be given the same treatment as high sec mfg and copying, but it won't happen until the fall / winter. By then, we will start to see what these seeds have sown, subscription wise. I asked on page 75 what the dev's expect the subscription fallout will be, and one of the chief architects of these changes answered.


You give Aryth too much credit. The goon financiers may be diabolical, even evil. But even they aren't that powerful.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#1567 - 2014-04-23 03:45:47 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
The Alienator wrote:
Stop eliminating player choice, Mmmkay? It's bad.

your entire post can be summarized as "you can't have rewards in nullsec, because I am in highsec!"

Hmm... I think a better summary of Alienator's post is that he has chosen to accept the common chant (or should that be "rant") of the "EVE is harsh" camp: "Adapt or die".

Alienator is *not* quitting the game. He is simply "adapting" by quitting his high-sec industry game play and keeping his PVP game play.

And isn't that what CCP has been saying that they want everyone to do? Quit the risk-free casual high-sec carebear activities and focus on PVP?

Well, ok, then. Here you go.

Besides, I'm sure that CCP doesn't need that revenue from Alienator's 3 unsubbed carebear accounts, anyways. If they can weed out all of that unnecessary carebear game play, then they can focus on PVP development only and layoff more people to retain profitability.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1568 - 2014-04-23 03:47:05 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
The loss of remote jobs vastly increases the value at risk for any pos related industry work with BPO's. That is a giant nut crusher when you have multiple 1 billion isk plus BPO's in process at any one time. In the meantime we know exactly **** all about any changes to bonuses for POS arraysd and CCP having the audacity to charge us isk on top of already paying for POS fuels. And just because they haven't broken things enough, BPO's can't be locked down in a control tower.
Most of this is intentional, but the one main thing that was driving many POS related research jobs was slot availability. With that being resolved there becomes a whole different level of opportunity being ignored to focus on what a smaller set lost. It even provides a very handy out for dragging multi billion BPO's for researc in a POS. Yes, if you MUST use the POS for some self imposed reason there is a greater risk, but now it's at least a choice instead of being practically a mandate for getting some ME research done.


Considering how few science services are available in empire, the costs of research in station may be very pricy, also Tech 3 science and industry can't be done in stations. The question that is still lingering will be changes to speed bonuses for array use. Station services can be soul-crushingly slow, especially for T2 production.


Don't worry about T2 invention. Read the blog again. It will be given the same treatment as high sec mfg and copying, but it won't happen until the fall / winter. By then, we will start to see what these seeds have sown, subscription wise. I asked on page 75 what the dev's expect the subscription fallout will be, and one of the chief architects of these changes answered.


You give Aryth too much credit. The goon financiers may be diabolical, even evil. But even they aren't that powerful.


The greatest trick the devil played was to convince people he did not exist.
mynnna
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1569 - 2014-04-23 04:25:55 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:


You give Aryth too much credit. The goon financiers may be diabolical, even evil. But even they aren't that powerful.


The greatest trick the devil played was to convince people he did not exist.


You give Aryth too much credit. He's too ****ing lazy to architect much of anything; there's a reason why I do the majority of the finance work.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Castles
Sovereign Power Company
#1570 - 2014-04-23 04:29:51 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
The Alienator wrote:
Stop eliminating player choice, Mmmkay? It's bad.

your entire post can be summarized as "you can't have rewards in nullsec, because I am in highsec!"

Hmm... I think a better summary of Alienator's post is that he has chosen to accept the common chant (or should that be "rant") of the "EVE is harsh" camp: "Adapt or die".

Alienator is *not* quitting the game. He is simply "adapting" by quitting his high-sec industry game play and keeping his PVP game play.

And isn't that what CCP has been saying that they want everyone to do? Quit the risk-free casual high-sec carebear activities and focus on PVP?

Well, ok, then. Here you go.

Besides, I'm sure that CCP doesn't need that revenue from Alienator's 3 unsubbed carebear accounts, anyways. If they can weed out all of that unnecessary carebear game play, then they can focus on PVP development only and layoff more people to retain profitability.


I don't know what planet Weaselior is from, but you're too kind to him Sizeof Void. Lol

Depending on how the next couple of dev-blogs go, there might be a substantial exodus of players from the game by the time the revamp goes into effect. At any rate, the last thing that will stop them from leaving is obvious nullbears mocking anyone for telling things from a different perspective that doesn't fit their own -- yeah, I'm so looking forward to paying rent to people who think like Weaselior. Roll I thought it was bad enough having to pay CCP. Smile

Hopefully CCP has a better answer than the ones they've given so far.
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1571 - 2014-04-23 04:49:58 UTC
Ok, I have not read the previous 78 or so pages...just can't be bothered.

Still I have to say, the removal of the standings requirement for POS in HS (High Sec) will, all other things held constant, drive T2 prices down.

The standings requirement for a POS was a significant barrier to entry. Barriers to entry reduce compettion. Reduced competition will drive up prices (and economic profits).

Of course, more POS going up by budding industrialists will likely mean higher PI prices (making POS' more expensive to maintain and putting a limit on how many POS' will be going up).

So the overall effect is ambiguous from what I can see, but my view is more competition the better as it tends to lead to lower prices overall.
Anders Madeveda
Usque Ad Mortem
#1572 - 2014-04-23 05:43:50 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anders Madeveda wrote:
[quote=Tyberius Franklin][quote=Anders Madeveda][quote=Rain6637]i think the HS sub gains will outpace the HS sub losses.


This was the crux of your complaint. Some imaginary detriment to your "playstyle" by way of it becoming more limited. So the question still stands, what is that limitation? And where is this effort to force people to play in null? How does this manifest? I can say I honestly don't expect a real answer as you are as horrendously un-objective as they come.


I'm pretty sure I wasn't looking to be "objective" in my post rather I was articulating the frustration High Sec Industrialists have expressed regarding the upcoming changes. Let me turn the argument around and ask exactly what your specific High Sec Industrial experience is? Build a few tormentors or shuttles during the Career Missions 100 years ago? I oversee 12-20 Billion in production per week, with BPO assets exceeding 80 Billion. I know my credentials and qualifications to speak about how High Sec Industrialists think of these changes, care to enlighten me as to yours? Or are you just a troll looking to see your name in lights?

If you read CCP Dev blogs, Jester's Blog and countless others you would understand that there is a concerted effort to move more industry to Null(exactly what do you think this entire debacle is for?) My point, for the 38th time, is that there is a large group of High Sec manufacturers who do not want to go to Null and very probably will stop production because the risk(BPO's must be in POS), aggravation(make BPO copies for every high value POS job), additional expense(variable taxes even on POS production) and competitive disadvantage(duh, Nulsec is cheaper) that HS Industry will now incur. There is no "imaginary" obstacle to High Sec enjoyment of Industry, this dev blog makes it reality.

Let me just pre-empt your very witty response-of course no one is saying build here or else, instead they are taking all motivation to build in location "A" and moving it to location "B" which coincidentally is the place no one wants to live as evidenced by all the null bears who come to high sec for carebear thrills(Way to pwn that unarmed industrial, you manly man).



Post Script: Objective; (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. (Of course I'm not being objective, everything I'm saying on this thread is influenced by MY opinions regarding the facts laid in the CCP changes)
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1573 - 2014-04-23 06:16:47 UTC
Anders Madeveda wrote:

If you read CCP Dev blogs, Jester's Blog and countless others you would understand that there is a concerted effort to move more industry to Null(exactly what do you think this entire debacle is for?) My point, for the 38th time, is that there is a large group of High Sec manufacturers who do not want to go to Null and very probably will stop production because the risk(BPO's must be in POS), aggravation(make BPO copies for every high value POS job), additional expense(variable taxes even on POS production) and competitive disadvantage(duh, Nulsec is cheaper) that HS Industry will now incur. There is no "imaginary" obstacle to High Sec enjoyment of Industry, this dev blog makes it reality.


Jester is a being a boob.

Sure, there are some boosts, in theory, to null production. But if you want to engage in null production you have to have access to slots in null....those kinds of rights are not handed out like the cheap ass candy on Halloween night. It is often reserved for some of the most trusted people in a corporation.

You and ding-a-lings like Jester and Mord Fiddle keep overlooking this stuff. And it is OMFG Goons are going to shut down High Sec. Whether it be POCOs or spamming POS'. Nevermind that the former means passing up solid amounts of isk and the latter means spending huge amounts of isk.

Here is an idea, go to dotlan and come back and tell us exactly how many moons are in High Security space.
Flay Nardieu
#1574 - 2014-04-23 06:28:01 UTC
As an addition to my previous post on concerns involving the proposed changes it became apparent that some argue with the specific change off removing empire restriction as beneficial and good for the bottom line.

There are some misconceptions with current system.

a. In it's current form it actually favors those smaller corps who through various strategies can easily get the standing to set a tower.

Example:
1. A group of young industrialist with similar faction preference form a new corp and earn a slightly protected niche through service to their particular faction.

2. An established corporation decides to operate a POS in high-sec, members with poor standing drop for little over a week while those with good standing further increase it and possibly take advantage of one of the several faction building services(optional)

There are other ways but those are the two most likely, and in both instances it would be in their interest to defend the existing High-sec POS than pull up stakes every time the wind blow foul.


b. Removing the standing restriction will allow very large firmly established corporations to drop POS's everywhere, ironicly allowing them to move certain assets out of true harms way,


To be perfectly candid every lost POS I've seen in High-sec was solely due either inadequate/zero defenses and operator inexperience. As a counter point to that in low there are these really nasty things called capital ships that are able to tank even decent POS with little support, additionally a low-sec POS can be hit at anytime with or without a war dec

The standing mechanic in high-sec is balanced even if it is annoying as listening to Teletubbies and Barry blaring at full volume with driving in rush hour traffic in an older major city
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1575 - 2014-04-23 06:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Anders Madeveda wrote:

I'm pretty sure I wasn't looking to be "objective" in my post rather I was articulating the frustration High Sec Industrialists have expressed regarding the upcoming changes. Let me turn the argument around and ask exactly what your specific High Sec Industrial experience is? Build a few tormentors or shuttles during the Career Missions 100 years ago? I oversee 12-20 Billion in production per week, with BPO assets exceeding 80 Billion. I know my credentials and qualifications to speak about how High Sec Industrialists think of these changes, care to enlighten me as to yours? Or are you just a troll looking to see your name in lights?

If you read CCP Dev blogs, Jester's Blog and countless others you would understand that there is a concerted effort to move more industry to Null(exactly what do you think this entire debacle is for?) My point, for the 38th time, is that there is a large group of High Sec manufacturers who do not want to go to Null and very probably will stop production because the risk(BPO's must be in POS), aggravation(make BPO copies for every high value POS job), additional expense(variable taxes even on POS production) and competitive disadvantage(duh, Nulsec is cheaper) that HS Industry will now incur. There is no "imaginary" obstacle to High Sec enjoyment of Industry, this dev blog makes it reality.

Let me just pre-empt your very witty response-of course no one is saying build here or else, instead they are taking all motivation to build in location "A" and moving it to location "B" which coincidentally is the place no one wants to live as evidenced by all the null bears who come to high sec for carebear thrills(Way to pwn that unarmed industrial, you manly man).



Post Script: Objective; (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. (Of course I'm not being objective, everything I'm saying on this thread is influenced by MY opinions regarding the facts laid in the CCP changes)
No one is making you move to null. No one is trying to move all industry to null. What they are doing is trying to make industry in null not something only the incredibly bored and/or uniformed do. And it's not affecting sec statuses disproportionately from the details shared thus far (BPO's/copying aren't necessary for POS jobs in just highsec). There is no major driver to leave highsec. Every single risk and new step you just complained about will exist there.

Actually, what did they move there that isn't in highsec anymore? Refine rates are the only things I can really think of, though the POS rates will still be available in highsec from the looks of it. The potential for POS ownership were actually expanded in highsec as well. I'm not seeing anything particularly highsec centric about this nerf.

What it sounds like you are saying is that if you don't have every conceivable advantage then you can't operate. And of course, if you have every advantage the only thing a smart person produces outside of highsec are things that can't be produced in highsec. That's just as much of a **** you to the producers that do live in null as you claim CCP is giving you.

And that's where objectivity comes in. Without it you're seeming to generate some sort of persecution complex without realizing that the guy who you are complaining about them giving everything to just got his workflow smashed as well, or do you not believe that nullsec inhabitants (what few can justify producing there currently) would keep their BPO's in an outpost whenever possible?

Edit: And really Ripard Teg's position on the cost thing is somewhat indefensible. A 14% increase in the isk cost of a manufacturing slot cannot make it somehow transform from insignificant, to the point of not even being considered, to crippling.

Edit 2: WHAT IS HE LOOKING AT THAT I MISSED! If the vast majority of an items cost comes from it's components, which are not being altered by the cost scaling, and current slot cost are not worth consideration, how does item total production cost scale at anywhere near the same max 14% rate?
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1576 - 2014-04-23 07:02:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anders Madeveda wrote:

I'm pretty sure I wasn't looking to be "objective" in my post rather I was articulating the frustration High Sec Industrialists have expressed regarding the upcoming changes. Let me turn the argument around and ask exactly what your specific High Sec Industrial experience is? Build a few tormentors or shuttles during the Career Missions 100 years ago? I oversee 12-20 Billion in production per week, with BPO assets exceeding 80 Billion. I know my credentials and qualifications to speak about how High Sec Industrialists think of these changes, care to enlighten me as to yours? Or are you just a troll looking to see your name in lights?

If you read CCP Dev blogs, Jester's Blog and countless others you would understand that there is a concerted effort to move more industry to Null(exactly what do you think this entire debacle is for?) My point, for the 38th time, is that there is a large group of High Sec manufacturers who do not want to go to Null and very probably will stop production because the risk(BPO's must be in POS), aggravation(make BPO copies for every high value POS job), additional expense(variable taxes even on POS production) and competitive disadvantage(duh, Nulsec is cheaper) that HS Industry will now incur. There is no "imaginary" obstacle to High Sec enjoyment of Industry, this dev blog makes it reality.

Let me just pre-empt your very witty response-of course no one is saying build here or else, instead they are taking all motivation to build in location "A" and moving it to location "B" which coincidentally is the place no one wants to live as evidenced by all the null bears who come to high sec for carebear thrills(Way to pwn that unarmed industrial, you manly man).



Post Script: Objective; (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. (Of course I'm not being objective, everything I'm saying on this thread is influenced by MY opinions regarding the facts laid in the CCP changes)
No one is making you move to null. No one is trying to move all industry to null. What they are doing is trying to make industry in null not something only the incredibly bored and/or uniformed do. And it's not affecting sec statuses disproportionately from the details shared thus far (BPO's/copying aren't necessary for POS jobs in just highsec). There is no major driver to leave highsec. Every single risk and new step you just complained about will exist there.

Actually, what did they move there that isn't in highsec anymore? Refine rates are the only things I can really think of, though the POS rates will still be available in highsec from the looks of it. The potential for POS ownership were actually expanded in highsec as well. I'm not seeing anything particularly highsec centric about this nerf.

What it sounds like you are saying is that if you don't have every conceivable advantage then you can't operate. And of course, if you have every advantage the only thing a smart person produces outside of highsec are things that can't be produced in highsec. That's just as much of a **** you to the producers that do live in null as you claim CCP is giving you.

And that's where objectivity comes in. Without it you're seeming to generate some sort of persecution complex without realizing that the guy who you are complaining about them giving everything to just got his workflow smashed as well, or do you not believe that nullsec inhabitants (what few can justify producing there currently) would keep their BPO's in an outpost whenever possible?


Basically this. People are losing some of the advantages they used to have and are complaining as the playing field is leveled.

Oh noes...my economic rents!!! Roll
Bronco Platz
Intercosmic Fruit Company
#1577 - 2014-04-23 08:14:13 UTC
I think, CCP lost all of its economic thinking. They writed of WoD not long ago. Now they are releasing a expansion, that not only will not bring any new players to Eve, no it is even more the opposite. Eve will forseeable lose subscriptions. Even the Null-warlords (in my oppinion, the people who dictated this expansion to CCP´s head) confirmed this one or two pages before.

So tell me, how this is going to make Eve better. It is not, that Eve is in a very good shape and it could stand to lose players. There is more competion out there than ever. Okay, SC could turn out as the biggest scam in the history of kickstarter. But be that as it may. Eve needs more (real) new players as never before. And CCP pulls out such a crap? I really can´t get it...

This signature is under NDA. Sorry.

Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1578 - 2014-04-23 08:25:13 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Still I have to say, the removal of the standings requirement for POS in HS (High Sec) will, all other things held constant, drive T2 prices down.


The problem in this assumption is, that it ignores the removal of extra materials and the integration of them into the regular materials for production. And since for T2 manufacturing you have the T2 components in the extra materials category, you will most likely, so summer comes, face a huge blast of increased manufacturing costs, given there are no steps intended by CCP to counter that effect when removing extra materials.

Assuming that materials stay the same and the cost scaling can be managed down to an insignificant factor, the only margin killer i see, is the ease of use (hopefully) provided by the new industry UI. Currently it is a plain PITA to get invention/research/production done in a large scale (and i'm talking roughly 200 manufacturing jobs per day for a single person here). Requiring about 10 seconds top for a single job to install (i attribute about 4s of that to the f***ing slow UI-to-Server reaction time), this adds up to a very large time investment. Together with standing requirements for a POS this stops many a potential T2 manufacturer from stepping in and providing some competition. Take away the chunk of this hassle, and i'm sure, there will be a lot more small producers, each focusing on a certain tiny set of T2 modules/rigs/ammo/ships (accompanied by the leave of bigger ones, judging from the ranting in this thread).
So maybe (under the so far very uncertain assumption, that the changes get implemented properly) this can serve as a prime example, that should be applied to other aspects of the game, too. Meaning it would in many areas be healthy to partly tear down large established entities in favor of support to many smaller ones. Again, just an thought...

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No one is making you move to null. No one is trying to move all industry to null.


There might be some incentive from CCP to "encourage" the industrialists to move to null, but what many opponents of the upcoming changes seem to miss is, that it is simply not possible to move industry in large to nullsec. At least not in a magnitude, many fear would be the case. I'm pretty sure, CCP could provide us with some numbers, showing how many m³ of goods get produced in hisec/lowsec/nullsec per day and how much of that gets moved to the other areas of space. And in comparison to that maybe some nullsec logisticians might care to share (rough) estimates of a nullsec powerbloc's hauling capabilities (and the fuel costs associated with it). Ah, and all those numbers should exclude cap and supercap production if possible.

Sure, some stuff will be rather produced locally in null, instead of moving materials to hs and building/buying it there. But for many things that require a wast amount of different ingredients, the logistic overhead will definitely out weight the (supposed to be small, but again, GIVE US NUMBERS, CCP!!) advantage of null factories over highsec stations/POSes.
Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1579 - 2014-04-23 08:49:31 UTC
Since we're focusing on risk vs reward I'm assuming wormhole industry is going to be absolutely fantastic.

Looking forward to the figures dev blog.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1580 - 2014-04-23 09:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Zappity wrote:
Since we're focusing on risk vs reward I'm assuming wormhole industry is going to be absolutely fantastic.

Looking forward to the figures dev blog.


As you mention it... since CONCORD is not able to provide direct chat access in W-space, how is the SCC or any other NPC corp (assuming that the fees for jobs are paid to these NPC entities) supposed to collect the fees from W-space POS? Of course, it's just a game and logic only goes so far; but how could the SCC reach W-space to collect fees when it's mighty mother company CONCORD cannot access W-space?

@Soldarius (or shall I say Hibana?)

Wonderful post of you. I just hope you give me reason to put my ignorance away, because as things stand there is no reason to show 00 sec any less of it. Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.